Visions and Hallucinations

[mapsurfer]

This is a really touchy subject to some who are polarized by religion or science because there is no documented
proof that visions/hallucinations of the mind are real. It is very frustrating and makes a person question reality in the first place. Visions that occur while you are wake typically occur in the "corner of your eye", typically derived from natural light however their is a strange human phenomena that allows one to visualize thoughts.. These I dont really consider to be full blown visions, but it is a precursor to visions that some people experience. Hallucinations/Visions happen to humans all the time, and they seem quite real, and you would swear "this or that" occurred.

The really strange thing about Hallucinations, and that which gets my attention is that the content of experience is
the description of the experience. I had heard people talk about 3D objects becoming 2D, spherical objects, orbs, light bending, aliens, insects, lions and tigers... oh my. In many cases, tales so bizarre it's scary.. and the hallucination seems to take on a life of its own.

I was recently introduced to a psychotherapy technique called EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) which I can only describe as hypnosis thru repetitious and patterned stimulation of the senses. I have done it 3-4 times with some success... and I have taken guided tours of the sub conscience, and I have seen remarkable visions with this technique. It does not work for everyone, but they are claiming that it does in fact work for 70% of their patients.

People who experience hallucinations from certain drugs often get more profound results, but I am in no way suggesting anyone should try them. I read a book by Dr. Rick Strassman DMT: The Spirit Molecule which was
a pretty good read, but I do not necessarily agree with some aspects of his hypothesis. He could have gone to
a little extra effort to prove DMT is secreted in the brain. We all know that melatonin is secreted in such a manner, but as for DMT?? At least he made hypothesis, which is a major milestone at at the risk of this professional career was willing to connect these dots.

Anywayz, hallucinations have always fascinated me because I have had many in my lifetime and I have often reflect upon them to decipher some special meaning. They seem so mystical and spiritual to me, that I can't help take notice. Even if these hallucinations are not spiritual in nature, they do make me ponder such thoughts. If nothing else, hallucinations seem to be some kind of link between the laws of nature and the supernatual on a conscience and subconscience level.

Regards,

-map

 

[transdimensional]

Hallucinations seem to be some kind of link between the laws of nature and the supernatural on a conscience and subconscience level

I disagree. You create an artificial division between “the laws of nature” and “the supernatural”. IMHO there is no dichotomy between the two of them.

Is reality a shared hallucination ?

Maybe you talk about pseudohallucinations, which are (as a psychological definition) images vivid enough to be hallucinations but recognized as “unreal” ?

In terms of perception what do you think is the difference between hallucinations, pseudohallucinations and “reality” ?

 

[mapsurfer]

Hallucinations seem to be some kind of link between the laws of nature and the supernatural on a conscience and subconscience level
I disagree. You create an artificial division between “the laws of nature” and “the supernatural”. IMHO there is no dichotomy between the two of them.

No dichotomy between the natural and supernatural ? Hmm. Well, when I think of supernatural I assert these things that cannot be explained by nature, and therefore nature and supernatural would be mutually exclusive. Do you believe there to be some overlap, or Do you have a concept that differs?

Is reality a shared hallucination ?

Hmm.. I don't think so. Do you think this way?

Maybe you talk about pseudohallucinations, which are (as a psychological definition) images vivid enough to be hallucinations but recognized as “unreal” ?

In terms of perception what do you think is the difference between hallucinations, pseudohallucinations and “reality” ?

Well, it could be a pseudohallucination, or simply an illusion. Again, I'm not wanting to debate a strict definition, but I'll just say, it is something that you can see visually, perhaps auditory as well.. Unsure if its reality by definition, probably not. And I only say probably because it can't be scientifically measured. (It exists only in your mind, and nowhere else)

There was no Wiki page for pseudohallucination which could help me split hairs, but just let me say this..
The hallucinations I have had... Are probably NOT real, but if for example you see a ghost (0=false, 1=true,?=maybe) If I said I do NOT believe in ghosts, then I would say it was 100% Unreal Hallucination.
But having seen it makes me question what I believe to be real.

You know the ole saying "I'll believe it if I see it". Which I have always said about UFOs, etc. Never seen one
*yet*.... But I have seen with eyes wide open, alien looking creatures, spirits and other whacky characters that
I put in the Hallucination category. Are they real? I really don't know. They certainly seem real,
but I sort of put them into my "dream" category even though my eyes were wide open. The only way I can justify these hallucinations, is that they are sub conscience like dreams.

Regards,

-map

 

[transdimensional]

No dichotomy between the natural and supernatural ? Hmm. Well, when I think of supernatural I assert these things that cannot be explained by nature, and therefore nature and supernatural would be mutually exclusive. Do you believe there to be some overlap, or Do you have a concept that differs?

Try to get acquainted with the material that is presented here! Maybe you should read some of the recommended books before trying to start such a discussion?

Is reality a shared hallucination ? Hmm.. I don't think so. Do you think this way?

Sometimes it definitely looks like it. Maybe you know the concept of “The Matrix”?
Try to get acquainted with the material that is presented here!

There was no Wiki page for pseudohallucination which could help me split hairs

Why do you intend to split hairs?

I would recommend to contemplate your “hallucinatory” perceptions (How are they structured? How do they relate to your everyday perceptions? What do they mean to you? What kind of settings (situations/environments/persons/moods) trigger these perceptions?)

If you study these things thoroughly you will be able to answer all these questions by yourself. Nobody can do it for you as you are the best expert of your own perceptions…

 

[mapsurfer]

Is there some specific material you referring to? If I can make some time, I will order some of these books, but what makes you believe I am somehow not capable of starting a discussion on the subject? Arg dude. a hallucination/pseudohallucination is pretty much splitting hairs. You are simply asking me to define something for you, and I really dont think it makes much difference.

Is the movie "The Matrix" what you think is the truth? There is a undeniable real element to living on planet earth. There may be *something* resembling the matrix within a hallucination, but you can't just say everything is unreal.

I am simply trying to find others who have experienced hallucinations, and willing to talk about them. Perhaps there is someone willing to share their real experiences?? Yeah I am certainly willing to share my experience, but I dont think anyone in this forum really cares.

Regards,

-map

 

[Russ]

I think a hallucination can be good for seeing how thought is kind of merged with your senses even when you're not hallucinating (in a "sense" we are probably always hallucinating one thing or another in a subtle way).

Its quite strange to think, what is the divider between thought and sensory data? There really seems to be none, aside from just "knowing the difference", we use our thoughts to symbolise like icons in windows etc, things which we have sensed. What we think our lounge looks like at home is mostly what we think it looks like, the light goes into our eyes, gets turned into data, and the data is then compiled into vision, and vision is made up of your interpretation of the data.

All it really takes is to interrupt/modify or just know about this process and you can see all kinds of stuff. Moreover if it takes place in your vision, and happens spontaneously, then it is regarded as a "real" thing. But what is most likely happening is simply the natural process of making sense of the data coming in from the senses gets confused, and is turning things which don't make sense into the closest it can get at making sense. The important thing is that its not coming from our conscious imagination, but from a basic process which is always there trying to make sense of things. So it seems spontaneous, and more real.

I'm sure you can get an idea of what its like to have different "rules", ie, to see into another realm, maybe get some fresh ideas, or even access some areas of our mind which we didn't know we had. But there is something about it which I don't like. It doesn't seem like a healthy thing to do, to encourage the mind to be "falser" than it already is. Or at least, it sounds like risky business.

 

[transdimensional]

But what is most likely happening is simply the natural process of making sense of the data coming in from the senses gets confused, and is turning things which don't make sense into the closest it can get at making sense. The important thing is that its not coming from our conscious imagination, but from a basic process which is always there trying to make sense of things.

Hi Russ, I know what you mean and I think this applies especially to triggers like sensory deprivation or perceptive deprivation where there is a lack of structured sensory input. Your blank "perceptive screen" fills the missing sensory input with internal signals "that make sense". This concept can lead to some kind of optical or acoustic illusions. On certain occasions these illusions can become more than illusionary imagination and it seems to us that such perceptions are very vivid and independent of the beholder.

So IMHO the stimulus handling can activate hallucinatory perceptions but it does not explain the content of some full-blown animated hallucinatory perceptions.
Maybe you would like to check up on the "Charles Bonnet syndrome" where complex visual hallucinations occur in mentally healthy people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet_syndrome). Mostly affected by this are people with visual impairments.

*****
@mapsurfer

Yeah I am certainly willing to share my experience, but I dont think anyone in this forum really cares.

How do you know? You did not tell us about your experiences. You just tried to start a discussion about hallucinations in general, only giving us a hint that you “have seen with eyes wide open, alien looking creatures, spirits and other whacky characters”.

If I try to categorize your perceptions you say that it “is pretty much splitting hairs”.
How can you expect that people show interest in your visions if you neither talk about them nor show willingness to analyze the perceptional base of these visions?

*****

A hallucination is a fact, not an error; what is erroneous is a judgment based upon it. (Bertrand Russell)

An hallucination is not, strictly speaking, manufactured in the brain; it is received by the brain, like any 'real' sense datum, and the patient act in response to this to-him-very-real perception of reality in as logical a way as we do to our sense data. (Philip K. Dick)

 

[mapsurfer]

Thanks for the feedback... It just seems like "text" had a perception all its own and its hard to convey a thought process with simple text but I want to say that I really appreciate the comments
no matter what form they may take.

Now I can certainly relate to sensory deprivation as being a potential for hallucination construction as there is lack of stimuli and the brain thinks to fabricate a reality.. I sometimes get this way when I am tired and try to fall asleep, my mind gets some wild dreams and images. I sort of relate this to something the sub conscience mind is capable of.. however there may be more to the story
that..

Here was a hallucination I had, and its almost comical... but I was sitting here one afternoon and I was looking at a piece of furniture... On the left side of the piece of furniture, I catch a visual hallucination of a giant "ear" on the left side of the furniiture. Im thinking to myself... that "ear" does NOT belong there, but I swear thats is what I saw (either with my vision, or within my brain). I sort of evaluated the piece of furniture after the visual disappeared and there was nothing especially remarkable about the furniture itself. No hidden defects that my mind could form other constructions, nothing "unexplainable" in that furniture. My thought is "Why would I left my mind drift to the point where it perceives the "unreal"? I sort of feels like there is some force that to
places these images before me to see if I will notice, or interrogate them. Maybe its all just an overactive imagination or some such...

Now after the fact I sort of examine my psyche to determine why such a vision would occur to me.
Just total speculation, but my father is Christian man who always rammed religion down my throat whether I liked it or not. In my mind God is an unknown force (maybe capable of supernatural or unexplained events) this things register as question marks/enigmas in my mind. And the possibility of God having a sense of humor?? yet another enigma. The the parts of my brain where concepts exist which are "unexplainable"... I always try to apply some logical explanation... thats just the way my brain works.

Now seeing an "ear" on a piece of furniture is to me quite humorous, and I can only say its "unreal"... Not something that occurs in nature... I can only say that I observed it. Maybe this is
a way for my brain to process imaginative thought. Now the only error judgment is perhaps airing this info on a public forum, exposing my ego to attack from everyone and their brother.
My controlling brain wants to protect certain aspects of the experience, but at the same time... it
is important to examine the part of brain that is capable of hallucination. It is simply fascinating to
to me how and why this occurs.

Regards,

-map

 

[spyraal]

Hello. To the best of my knowledge, our brain works in an electro-chemical way. Our sensory input is relayed by the use of the substances called neurotransmitters. Our body's "natural" neurotransmitters are mainly noradrenaline, dopamine and serotonin. Our sense of reality is based on what chemical is used by the brain at a given time and how that translates or communicates sensory inputs. Being at relaxed state for example, we use different neurotransmitter than when we are angry or fight for our lives. When using psychedelics, these substances take over the task of neurotransmissions, and this fact alone is responsible for the vivid and 3 dimensional "hallucinations". So, expanding this line of though, anything we consume somehow affects our body's chemistry (and therefore our perception in a way) and everything that produces an electrical or magnetic field also has an impact on neurotransmissions in our body. Where does this leave "objective reality"? What is also interesting is that the only reason some phychedelic substances are SO effective is because their molecular stracture is VERY similar to the stracture of our "natural" neurotrasmitters and they can "bind" very easy with the body.

This is my current knowledge on the subject put on a few words. If all these are correct, that leaves about thousand or more ways and reasons for our perception to be changed and manipulated. Food, chemicals, radiation, pollution, magnetic and electronic noise or fields etc, but also each person's individual body chemistry and make up. That makes the dividing line between "reality" and "hallucination" very slim and flexible in my opinion. To my eyes, our common consensus of reality is but an "one-size-fits-all" invention to facilitate some level of communication. So maybe, the part of our chemistry which is common to most human beings might be responsible for what we name "humanly objective" or "real". Could our reality be a "grand scale serotonin hallucination" as i was reading in a book? I don't know for sure, but if introducing a few milligrams of a neurotransitting substance like LSD can completely "change reality" for a person, then that leaves me very skeptical about any "firm" belief about what is real or not. The only thing that i have concluded is that there must many realities "next" to us that we cannot under normal circumstances "tune", but never the less they are there.

 

[davey72]

I just watched "DMT The spirit molecule" and one thing that occured to me was that they said the rituals connected with shamns, and indigenous peoples using these drugs was part of the experience that shouldn't be denied. not only is it a much calmer experience when orally administered, but we lack the generations of experience needed to guide one through these realms.
I think the c's said that using these substances can cause tears in ones etheric veil? I would tend to think that this statement was meant for us westerners that do not have the proper guidance.
Any thoughts?

 

[EmeraldHope]

I just watched "DMT The spirit molecule" and one thing that occured to me was that they said the rituals connected with shamns, and indigenous peoples using these drugs was part of the experience that shouldn't be denied. not only is it a much calmer experience when orally administered, but we lack the generations of experience needed to guide one through these realms.
I think the c's said that using these substances can cause tears in ones etheric veil? I would tend to think that this statement was meant for us westerners that do not have the proper guidance.
Any thoughts?

The problem is that Shamanism is subjective and limits, as do all rituals. It also puts the focus on just the shaman, not the group, so it is not a true sto concept. The problem with the drugs is that one is "storming the gates of heaven" artificially, when the body is capable of doing exactly that if one has the genetics and is able to induce the chemicals themselves.


The issue is, most all of everything related to shamanism is corrupted. On top of that , even if one has the genetics, it can express as schizophrenia due to gluten and other toxins.


So , perhaps some searching and reading on all the things related to shamanism in this forum may be in order and helpful, as not just "westerners" need a further understanding?