Understanding Hindu Gods

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Recently I read Worlds in collision and I was impressed by his theory of astrology as the religious origins. He quoted Hindu gods extensively. I wondered whether this is correct ?. The more I recollect the pictures of the current day Hindu gods, traditions and rituals the more I am convinced how correct he is and ended up in awe. Often, events, myths, religious text, religious gurus, their techniques, their benevolent/malevolent deeds are intermixed to create current day new age fascination to india.

My intention is to collect my observations .

In short, current day Hindu religion is based on 3 Primary Gods , Brahma (creator), Vishnu( protector), Shiva (destroyer) often called trinity.
8247932749_b18c9e6968_m.jpg

What made me wondering is the strangeness of their physical characteristics of these Gods, their offspring, Incarnations, their out of context animal vehicles and strange weapons.

Shiva.

- ONLY Snake wearing on the neck
- ONLY god with Water flows out of the head
- ONLY Hindu god with third eye
- he puts the ash on his skin.
- Wears the tiger skin
- He is big in to dance(rudra) with dance and destroys the world with
- Cow is his vehicle
- His weapon is three pronged fork called Trishul.
- He is the ONLY primary god that has godly(not normal) offspring of 2 children
o Ganesh - elephant headed god with huge tummy and rides on little small mouse
o Kumara swamy – One with peacock as vehicle.

Do you see anything strange in this descriptions ?. I never questioned this strangeness , though I heard different interpretations of these characteristics as artistic representation with inner subtle meaning (changes from source to source).
Velikovsky proposes Shiva as planet Jupiter. Without going to the depth of the his references which is extensive, simple glance of the picture is sufficient to say how right he is.


With electrical Universe theory, suddenly all starts making sense of cosmic drama that happened. As we know Velikovsky theorized Venus came out of the Jupiter and C’s called that Venus is dragged in to solar system from cluster of comets and ancients have seen them coming from the direction of Jupiter and once can imagine the consequences.

Snake wearing – Some comet must have circled around the Jupiter at least temporarily at that time with their long black tails.
Third Eye – curiously, he is the ONLY hindu god that has 3rd eye- Is it the Great Red Spot ?. Of course I don’t when whether how long the red spot exist , but based on our current understanding , cosmic environment changes fast enough.
Tiger skin : bands of the Jupiter

Bull/Milk/Cow : velikovsky extensively wrote about this as a hydrocarbons from the tail of the Venus that precipitated and mutated and filled the land, flora and fauna with white substance. This is extensively interpreted as Bull, Cow , Milk and so on in every ancient culture in the world .
8248999996_f515559acd_m.jpg



Vishnu

- His sleeps under a multi headed snake on a infinite milk ocean
- His weapon is chakra , with a beach shell that is used to make sound.
- His vehicle is eagle ( Garuda )
- He is Blue in Color
- He has 4 arms
- The ONLY Hindu God with lot of incarnations with strange shapes and hero of those mythical battles
8248030645_4a8e20df15_m.jpg

Well, Velikovsky proposed Vishnu ( Venus ) born from Jupiter (siva)and it is captured into Solar System and rotated around solar systems disturbing the planets each fought with each other and discharging the electrical plasma discharges. which are shown as weapons like three pronged forks, wheels etc.

from worlds in collision

This description of the birth of the daughter from the mouth of the Creator is a Hindu parallel of Athene springing from the head of Zeus. Fragrance and nectar are mentioned in connection with the birth of the celestial cow, a combination that can be understood if we recall what we learned in the Sections ""Ambrosia"" and ""Birth of the Planet
Venus."""

IN EVERY COUNTRY of the ancient world we can trace cosmo-logical myths of the birth of the planet Venus. If we look for the god or goddess who represents the planet Venus, we must inquire which among the gods or goddesses did not exist from the beginning, but was born into the family. The mythologies of all peoples concern themselves with the birth only of Venus, not with that of Jupiter, Mars, or Saturn. Jupiter is described as heir to Saturn, but his birth is not a
mythological subject. Horus of the Egyptians and Vishnu, born of Shiva, of the Hindus, were such newborn deities. Horus battled in the sky with the monster-serpent Seth; so did Vishnu. In Greece the goddess who suddenly appeared in the sky was Pallas Athene. She sprang from the head of Zeus-Jupiter. In another legend she was the daughter of a monster, Pallas-Typhon, who attacked her and whom she battled and killed.

The slaying of the monster by a planet-god is the way in which the peoples perceived the convulsion of the pillar of smoke when the earth and the comet Venus disturbed each other in their orbits, and the head of the comet and its tail leaped against each other in violent electrical discharges."

weapon: wheel - plasma discharge
8249002250_e7efeeb17d_m.jpg



Snake heads
from worlds in collision
"The Egyptian Venus-Isis, the Babylonian Venus-Ishtar, the Greek Venus-Athene were goddesses pictured with serpents, and sometimes represented as dragons. ""Ishtar, the fearful dragon,"" wrote Assur-banipal. The Morning Star of the Toltecs, Quetzal-cohuatl (Quetzal-coatl), also is represented as a great
dragon or serpent: ""cohuatl"" in Nahuatl is ""serpent,"" and the name means ""a feathered serpent.""10 The Morning Star of the Indians of the Chichimec tribe in Mexico is called ""Serpent cloud,"" n a remarkable name because of its relation to the pillar of cloud and the clouds that covered the globe after the contact of the earth with Venus."

Blue color
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/explore/comets/background/
As comets move close to the Sun, they develop tails of dust and ionized gas. Comets have two main tails, a dust tail and a plasma tail. The dust tail appears whitish-yellow because it is made up of tiny particles — about the size of particles of smoke — that reflect sunlight. Dust tails are typically between 1 and 10 million kilometers (about 600,000 to 6 million miles) long. The plasma tail is often blue because it contains carbon monoxide ions. Solar ultraviolet light breaks down the gas molecules, causing them to glow. Plasma tails can stretch tens of millions of kilometers into space. Rarely, they are as long as 150 million kilometers (almost 100 million miles). A third tail of sodium has been observed on Comet Hale-Bopp.

Cow /milk/bull

from worlds in collision
"A passage of the Ramayana about the ""celestial cow"" says: ""Honey she gave, and roasted grain . . . and curled milk, and soup in lakes with sugared milk," which is the Hindu version of ""rivers of milk and honey."" The ""celestial cow"" or ""the heavenly Surabhi"" (""the fragrant"") was the daughter of the Creator:
she ""sprung from his mouth""; at the same time nectar and ""excellent perfume"" were spread, according to the Indian epic.

incarnations

1. Though there are some minor variations in what these 10 incarnations are , many are common. Out of these are strangest are the one on the left in above picture.
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasavatara_of_Vishnu
Matsya, the fish, from the Satya Yuga. Lord Vishnu takes the form of a fish to save Manu from a flood, after which he takes his boat to the new world along with one of every species of plant and animal, gathered in a massive cyclone.

Kurma, the tortoise, appeared in the Satya Yuga. When the devas and asuras were churning the ocean in order to get the nectar of immortality, the mount Mandara they were using as the churning staff started to sink and Lord Vishnu took the form of a tortoise to bear the weight of the mountain.

Varaha, the boar, from the Satya Yuga. He appeared to defeat Hiranyaksha, a demon who had taken the Earth, or Prithvi, and carried it to the bottom of what is described as the cosmic ocean in the story. The battle between Varaha and Hiranyaksha is believed to have lasted for a thousand years, which the former finally won. Varaha carried the Earth out of the ocean between his tusks and restored it to its place in the universe.

Narasimha, the half-man/half-lion appeared in the Satya Yuga. The raksha Hiranyakashipu was granted a powerful boon from Brahma, not allowing him to be killed by man or animal, inside or out, day or night, or in earth or the stars, with a weapon either living or inanimate. Vishnu descended as an anthropomorphic incarnation, with the body of a man and head and claws of a lion. He then disembowels the raksha at the courtyard threshold of his house, at dusk, with his claws, while he lay on his thighs.

Vamana, the dwarf, appeared in the Treta Yuga. The fourth descendant of Hiranyakashyap, Bali, with devotion and penance was able to defeat Indra, the god of firmament. This humbled the other deities and extended his authority over the three worlds. The gods appealed to Vishnu for protection and he descended as the dwarf Vamana. During a yagna of the king, Vamana approached him in the midst of other Brahmins. Bali was happy to see the diminutive holy man, and promised whatever he asked. Vamana asked for three paces of land. Bali agreed, and the dwarf then changed his size to that of a giant. He stepped over heaven in his first stride, the netherworld with the second. Bali realized that Vamana was Vishnu incarnate. In deference, the king offered his head as the third place for Vamana to place his foot. The avatar did so and thus granted Bali immortality. Then in appreciation to Bali and his grandfather Prahlad, Vamana made him ruler of Pathala, the netherworld. Bali is believed to have ruled Kerala and Tulunadu. He is still worshiped there as the king of prosperity and recalled before the time of harvest. If these are the effects of comet venus rotations ( before it is settled ), based on the location, direction and impact to the viewer on the earth, all these stories had been telling the story..

This makes sense, if Venus has made multiple rounds in solar systems kicking each planet on its way from different directions with different effects. Vishnu's later incarnations are place holders that extend even to today.

Though Buddha opposed Hindu religion, some people added Budda as one of the Vishnu’s incarnations. Vishnu’s incarnations are place holder for whatever one wants to add including the future ( Or current)avatar called Kalki who will come on a horse with knife to fulfill the famous verse from Gita.

“yada yada hi dharmasya glanibhabati bharata abhyuthhanam dharmsya tadatamnan?”
_ http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/09/02/shubh-krishna-janmashtami/
Whenever there is decline of Dharma (righteousness)..and rise of Adharma (unrighteousness); To protect the virtuous..to destroy the wicked and to re-establish Dharma, I manifest myself, through the ages.

ONLY other god or goddess that has incarnations exist is Kali. She had number of hands with various weapons and killing the demons and crushing them under feet and sits on Lion. Interestingly, wife’s of these hindu gods ( Vishun’s wife Lakshmi, shiva’s wife Parvathi, Brahma’s wife Saraswathi ) are more less play first lady type of roles. The only exception is Kali supposed to be incarnation of the Parvathi ( who is shiva’s wife ). Again Jupiter connection.

Suddenly, all this sounds like works of patriarchy that changed female goddess to male goddess.

Brahma

Except one festival celebrated in limited sections of india in his name and one or two rare temples, he doesn’t have much significance, though he is the creator, who runs to Vishnu for help for every little monster threat and his wife saraswathi is goddess of the education, still does not much importance except decorating the walls. He has
- Four heads
- Vehicle is swan
As per the legend, Vishnu created him and sent to earth to create veda’s and prepare his disciplines like Vysya ( who wrote Hindu myths Ramayan, Mahabharat and whole set of other derivatives ) to distribute. Interestingly he has very temples and disciples when compared with all other gods.
Well, Brahma sounds like more earthly than Cosmic, probably he don’t need special privileges.

Shiva’s off springs.

Ganesh : shiva's first son
- Elephant face
- Mouse as a vehicle despite having largest tummy in hindu gods.
8247932251_2548f17f5d_m.jpg


from worlds in collision
"During his visit in Egypt, he heard from the Egyptian priests or guides to the antiquities that the army of Sennacherib, while threatening the borders of Egypt, was destroyed in a single night. According to this story, an image of a deity holding in his palm the figure of a mouse was erected in an Egyptian temple to commemorate the miraculous event. In explanation of the symbolic figure, Herodotus was told that myriads of mice descended upon the Assyrian camp and gnawed away the cords of their bows and other weapons; deprived of their arms, the troops fled in panic. Josephus Flavius repeated the version of Herodotus, and added that there is another version by the Chaldeo-Hellenistic historian Berosus. Josephus wrote introductory words to a quotation of Bero-sus, but the quotation itself is missing in the present text of the Jewish Antiquities

Herodotus recounts that he saw the statue of the god with a mouse in the palm of his hand, which was erected in memory of the event.

Two cities in Egypt claimed the same sacred animal, the shrew-mouse: Panopolis (Akhmim) in the south and Letopolis in the north. Herodotus did not travel to the south of Egypt; thus, he must have seen the statue in Letopolis. Even today many bronze mice, sometimes inscribed with the prayers of pilgrims, are found in the ground of Letopolis.

Both cities with the cult of the sacred mouse were ""sacred cities of thunderbolt and meteorites.""
* The Egyptian name for Letopolis is indicated by the same hieroglyphic as ""thunderbolt.""" "The ma'nidos came, but the thread had so cut into the flesh of the Sun's neck that they could not sever it. When all but one had given up, the Sun called to the Mouse to try to cut the string. The Mouse came up and gnawed at the string, but it was difficult work, because the string was hot and deeply imbedded in the Sun's neck. After working at the string a good while, however, the
Mouse succeeded in cutting it, when the Sun breathed again and the darkness disappeared. If the Mouse had not succeeded, the Sun would have died."""


Kumara swamy
: Another Shiva's son
- His Vehicle is peacock.
8249001176_9ccf2e66ca_m.jpg

Why peacock ? – peacock feathers have blue at center again with green spreadings.?
From Worlds in Collission
"The planet-god Shiva, Kalidasa says, ""deposited his seed in fire"" and gave birth to Kumara who battled the great demon named Taraka that ""troubled the world."" The Babylonian astrologers ascribed to their planet-gods the ability"


If the cluster of comets entering solar system dragging massive comet like venus from the direction of Jupitor and if some comets stuck in the jupitor ‘s orbit atleast temporarily, one hitting the head , while he is discharging plasma ( trishul) , Other comets magnetic fields disturbing the Jupiter’s magnetic, it would have been a Cosmic dance.

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Viewing it would have been a extraordinary Trauma that locks up in subconscious ( collective amnesia). The unraveling of the subconscious trauma through meditation or equivalent techniques would have shown these gods for sure like in dreams.


Interestingly, Veda’s seems to have not given much importance to these above gods, Instead they preferred Wind, fire, sun etc.

_http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/fall97/chis-suc.htm.
Between 2000 B.C.E. and 1200 B.C.E. Aryan tribes from the region of Iran moved into the northern part of India. With these invading tribes came their deities. These Aryan gods became known in India as the Vedic Gods. These Vedic gods, like most ancient Aryan gods, are depicted in an anthropomorphic way. As stated by A. A. Macdonell in Vedic Mythology: "The true gods of Veda are glorified human beings, inspired with human motives passions, born like men, but are immortal"(pg. 2).
The Vedic gods also resemble other Aryan gods in their duties and actions. One example of this, is that Indra shares characteristics with Thor and other "hammer gods". As stated by Donald Mackenzie in Indian Myth and Legend: "Indra is the Indian Thor, the angry giant-killer, the god of war and conquest"(pg. xxxi).
These Vedic gods also resemble other Aryan gods in that they are overwhelming male, with female gods playing a minor role in the heavenly hierarchy. This was most likely because Aryan tribes practiced a patriarchal system instead of a matriarchal one. Thus with males being the dominant and more powerful figures in the society, and females having only a supporting role, so too did the gods.
The Vedic Gods are shown predominantly as being beneficent beings who bestow prosperity and good fortune upon their followers. When evil does befall, such as in the case of a draught and/or famine, it is not the work of the gods, but the work of demons. And when the gods defeat the demons, such as bringing on the rains, it only shows the beneficent of the gods even more.
They are also portrayed as moral entities, who punish the sinful and wicked while rewarding the pious and righteous. But more important than being seen as moral, is being seen as great and mightily. They are depicted as being able to do whatever they wish; having dominion over all creatures; not having their ordinances thwarted; and not having anything live beyond the time appointed by the gods (Macdonell, pg. 18).
The Vedic pantheon is considered to consist of thirty-three different gods, which are placed, in groups of eleven, into one of the three different categories: atmospheric, terrestrial, or celestial, each of which has its own area of responsibility. But just because a god is in one category does not mean that it is completely different from a god from another category; for sometimes a god from one category will have some of the same qualities of a god from another category.
To better explain this, a brief description of three different gods, each from a different category, follows. The gods being discussed, and their categories, are: 1) Indra, atmospheric; 2) Agni, terrestrial; and 3) Varuna, celestial.

I find these realizations interesting in view of recent readings. Remove the human shape and replace it to sphere, we get the truth.
 

dutta

A Disturbance in the Force
The Hindu Trinity is actually not that different from the Chrstian Tinity:
Shiva is the Father.
Vishnu is the Son who incarnates as a human Savior periodically (the mistake Christians make is thnking that Jesus is the only one)
and
Brahma is the Holy Spirit.

For another detailed analysis of Hindu Gods see _www.thehindugods.com
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
dutta said:
The Hindu Trinity is actually not that different from the Chrstian Tinity:
Shiva is the Father.
Vishnu is the Son who incarnates as a human Savior periodically (the mistake Christians make is thnking that Jesus is the only one)
and
Brahma is the Holy Spirit.

For another detailed analysis of Hindu Gods see www.thehindugods.com

Welcome to the forum dutta. We encourage people to introduce hear Newbies Forum and Important Notices to All Forum Members You can see others posts for examples.

Coming back to religions, we have million explanations each has their proponents, opponents with out much objective explanation or proofs w.r.t to latest findings of our understanding of our reality. The website you mentioned is the standard explanation most of the hindu's indoctrinated ( including me) in to. Does it makes sense other than little more than Disney stories. I don't think so.
coming back to christianity, you may be interested to read these

Who wrote bible

Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?
 

Medulin

Jedi
Oh, there are so many gods in Hinduism. :)
They remind me of saints in Catholicism.
Thank God I've limited myself to Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. :-[
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Recent session brought me back to this thread/thought process of celestial objects as the origin of Hindu mythology. I tend to consider Veda's as Version 1.0 and current form based on Ramayan and Mahabharat as 2.0. There is a huge difference between 1.0 and 2.0 w.r.t thematics as i posted in previous posts.

My intent is to try to get some timelines, specific cosmic events to these religious texts taking what C's said as clue's, not conclusions.
(Sid) What was the real motivation behind the mythological Indian texts of Mahabharata and Ramayana?

A: Record events of great significance.
It's interesting that both Mahabharata and Ramayana are combined in to generic question and answer is also generic though they seems to hint it as cosmic phenomenon. Traditional view of Ramayana is from Treta Yuga and Mahabharata is Dwapara Yuga. Hindu cycle of Yuga's( time cycle) fall under 4 parts - Krita Yuga(age of Truth) , Treta Yuga ( three quarters virtue and one quarter sinfulness), Dvapara Yuga( two quarters virtue and two quarters sinfulness), Kali Yuga( one quarter virtue and three quarters sinfulness - current age).

How many years each Yuga varying widely given that most of the interpretations comes from 3rd way Guru's who are too numerous who depend on many things ( meditation practices ,old scriptures and others). That's an end less debate. Here is one wiki

For some time, there are news item that gave weightage of Dvapara Yuga concept for non believers based on archeological digs. As per Mahabharata, Krishna (Vishnu's incarnation in that age ) dies just before end of the world and the place ( Dvaraka in the state of Western Gujarat) he dies goes under the water.

Again, there are claims and counter claims of the dates and speculations when Dvaraka drowned in the water leaving aside embellishments each religion tend to contain. Some dates for this Dvaraka( Dwaraka) used were around 3600 BC , 1500 BC and so on. Here is a review video that goes into claims, counter claims, agenda's of claims/counter claimants and the need for more digging and testing and so on.
But the Vedic kingdoms that are in epic are Kuru (1200 BCE - 500 BCE according to wiki) and Panchala (1100 BCE- 500 BCE as per wiki)only ranged from 1500 BC to 800 BC. Another city that mentioned in the epic Indraprasta ( Modern Day New Delhi ) also have archeological evidence of painted grey ware (PGW) that dated back to 1100 BCE- 800 BCE.

To get some perspective of it, I used the History of India video and put it in a sheet to make sense of timelines. Naturally, timelines are slightly different from different main stream sources, but one thing is common all the vedic kingdoms started AFTER Indu's valley civilization ( 3300 BCE - 1300 BCE). According to C's, the city of Indus valley civilization existed until 1100 BCE - October 20, 1994
Q: Who built the city of Mohenjo-Daro?

A: Lizards directly. Coatzlmundi legend ties in to this directly look at illustrations on stones now.

Q: Who is Coatzlmundi?

A: Other deity of the Lizards worshipped by the Atlanteans and their descendants because of the direct contact with humans for 1000 years.

Q: Now, you said Mohenjo Daro was built by the Lizzies directly. Did they occupy this city themselves?

A: No.

Q: When was this city last inhabited continually?

A: 3065 years ago. { 1071 BC }

Q: When was it built?

A: 6092 years ago.
It's interesting C's say "ago" in some places and other places B.C ( ex: Baalbek was built on 3218 B.C in the same session). Leaving aside their "expanded present" comment( i don't have clear idea of what it means), I guess they have some interesting reasons based on what we will do after the sessions including recent 460 years addition discussion. Any way, all of these dates came after European colonization of the rest of the world 500 years ago.

So the Vedic Kingdom's can't be before 1071 BC. Also, there is some mystery to the Indus valley civilization though it is surmised that Vedic kingdom's came from Indu's valley civilization. While all other kingdom's of the time used lot of trade, cultural exchange, wars etc. with other neighboring kingdoms, these guys didn't do that much. From the ruin's archeologists couldn't figure out much of culture much other than advanced comfortable city building( planned cities, sewers etc. October, 22 1994
Q: (L) Who built the city of Angkor Wat?

A: That was built by the Lizard Beings themselves. Built approximately 3108 years ago. { 1114 BC}
This is interesting in the context of there have been carvings of Mahabharata and Ramayan on the walls of the mysterious and gigantic structures of Angkor Wat. It doesn't mean these drawing of epic's were etched at the same time. Given that 4D STS has means to go back in time and they can even etch it. We don't know.
Q: (L) Who built the city of Mohenjo Daro?

A: That also was built by the Lizard Beings directly.

Q: (L) Did they live in these cities?

A: No, as stated before, they did not live there, they visited or occupied on a temporary basis, but did not live there.

Q: (L) Who did they build the cities for?

A: They built the cities for themselves and their worshippers amongst humans.
In the Indus valley civilization video link, presenter mentions of tale where few traders from these regions went to Western regions and tight lipped about their civilization while trading. So we have assume some serious obedience stuff going on there.
1998 -08-22
Q: We watched this television show the other night which talked about the city of Angkor Wat and its orientation to Draco 10,500 BC. You said that Angkor Wat was built 3108 years ago by the Lizzies themselves, and that the city of Mohenjo Daro was also built by the Lizzies 3065 years ago, which is within 30 or 40 years of the same time period. Do you still confirm that the Lizzies themselves built these
cities?
A: Reptilian Beings.
Q: And they did this themselves?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened to the inhabitants of these cities?
A: Taken to another planet.
The secrecy makes sense if this area is a incubator lab for them. Will this explain why they won't allow any body near this region ( Modern day pakistan with neighboring Indian and Afghan borders)? It's like some areas in Himalaya's( where UFO's are found to be come out of mountains) are out of reach for Indians and Chinese who fight with each other in their border dispute.
From Recent session:
Q: (L) Okay. And the second part of the question:

(sid) Are there any factual events or just adaptations of Odyssey, etc?

A: Odyssey was part of the same phenomenon.
Honestly, I haven't heard the concept of Hindu mythology borrowed from Greeks. It may be related to region one is from. Ex: North Indian regions has some history of Indo-greek rulers, while south Indians has no background like that. Any way, India is so diverse ( w.r.t local history, language, culture, historical influences etc.) lot of interpretations are possible.

I looked for this concept on the net and found some threads on Quora. The most common consensus fall under familiar lines
  • None
  • some character similarities with major differences like
    • Hindu gods are passive, while Greek gods are very active in taking party lines etc. in either respective epics.
    • Mahabharata is a battle between cousins of 5 good guys vs 100 bad guys, every body else taking sides with each other etc.
  • Just another imperial hijacking narration( good is ours, bad is yours ) etc.
This is understandable given that, there are some religious angles during Independence movement to rally people against British, though Gandhi kept fundies from all religions at bay.
At a time when Indian nationalists were seeking an indigenous basis for social and political action against colonial rule, Bhagavad Gita provided them with a rationale for their activism and fight against injustice. Bal Gangadhar Tilak and Mahatma Gandhi used the text to help inspire the Indian independence movement. Mahatma Gandhi expressed his love for the Gita in these words:
I find a solace in the Bhagavadgītā that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavadgītā. I find a verse here and a verse there and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies – and my life has been full of external tragedies – and if they have left no visible, no indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavadgītā.
The only book I read on Greek Mythology is Odyssey. So, I picked up a book Illiad (based on reviews and so on) and started reading. In the introduction author mentions couple of interesting points, though he attributes the popularity to the Homer's literary genius.
Even when no one desires it, war still happens, whether by the will of the gods or the nature of man. If we were to take any random hundred-year period within the last five thousand years, it has been calculated, we would find on average ninety-four of that hundred to have been occupied with largescale conflicts in one or more regions of the globe 49. The result of at least three thousand years of storytelling, the Iliad is still with us because it has resonated powerfully with every passing age. Majestic similes that conjure the world of nature; magnetic characters defined by stirring and momentous speeches; and a broad and generous humanity that reveals a panorama of human life locked in heroic struggle beneath a mischievous or indifferent heaven—these are the hallmarks of Homeric poetry. Through such high artistry did this mysterious master poet transform an ancient tale of one obscure campaign into a sublime and sweeping evocation of the devastation of every war, of any time. 49. Paraphrased from Trevor Bryce, Life and Society in the Hittite World (Oxford, 2004), 98.

While listening to Illiad, the narrative style is similar to Mahabharat mainly naming people with their parents name, moral dilemna related to war, characters as sons of gods and so on though the background setting is very different. Probably it is related to Indo-Aryan style of narration. The descriptions of the Helen reminded me of Draupadi from Mahabharat and looked whether any body linked the two and found one thesis comparing both.

This reminded me Laura's research on Helen/Nefertiti/Sarah element (2003-02-02 session). If I put timeline to it based on Akhenaten persuing Helen/Sarah etc. it has to be around 1600 BC ( last 3600 comet cycle.) But, that is too far back to carry forward to Vedic period( 700 years) with some less known Indu's valley civilization in between. Interestingly, author of Illiad has some interesting comment on Helen.
Close study of the Iliad indicates that this epic-making process is in fact even older than the Bronze Age, and indeed draws on sources from outside the Greek world. For example, the name of Helen of Troy can be traced to the Indo-European *Sweléna¯, associated with burning and sun glare. Helen’s prototype was a Daughter of the Sun, the abduction of the Sun-maiden being a recurrent motif in old Indo-European myth.27 The comradeship of Achilles and Patroclus has long invited comparison with that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the Near Eastern epic of Gilgamesh, variants of which can be dated as far back as the third millennium B.C. Nearly half of the Iliad’s 15,693 lines are in direct speech, meaning that to some degree the epic is as much a drama as it is a narrative. The prototypes for this kind of dramatic presentation are also found in the Near East, in tales, myths, and poems in Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, Ugaritic, and Hittite.28

27. Helen’s origins are paraphrased from M. L. West, Indo-European Poetry and Myth (Oxford, 2007),229ff.
28. The percentage of direct speech is given in Jasper Griffin, “Homeric Words and Speakers,” Journal of Hellenic Studies 106 (1986):36–57. Dramatic versus narrative and the dramatic character of Near Eastern literature closely follows G. S. Kirk, The Iliad: A Commentary, Vol. II, books 5–8(Cambridge, 1990), 28ff.
Are there any other cosmic activity which is nearer to Vedic period of 1000 BC that has cometary battle with LOT's of pieces of asteroids that battling as to camps with each other that necessitated observers to document it and this is repeating too often to create multiple epics.

This post is already long, so will write the remaining in the next post.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Are there any other cosmic activity which is nearer to Vedic period of 1000 BC that has cometary battle with LOT's of pieces of asteroids that battling as to camps with each other that necessitated observers to document it and this is repeating too often to create multiple epics.

This post is already long, so will write the remaining in the next post.
This thought process reminded me of Eric Cline's 1177 B.C book at the end of Bronze age empire collapses. But the author attributes it to the supply chain disruptions to bronze making with the raw material(tin i think) from Afghanistan and sea people migration etc. Though title says 1177 BC, author clearly mentions it as approximate date, 100 years this or that side. While looking for what cosmic event happened during that time, I came across this post on Victor clube's gaint comet theory 1984 paper and his approximate timelines of disintegration.

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Approximate 1000+/- 300 BC event fits well into the search criteria. If this event happened nearer to earth, these disintegration of the comet ( assume 2 large pieces with their disintegrating small pieces with electrical discharges ) would be a terrifying experience for observers ( not specific to one country/location/region, at all places) , making rulers to come up with consistent narration that legitimizes their rule/priesthood.

According to Victor Clube, there is a gaint comet entered solar system > 20,000 years ago, had first disintegration 3000 B.C and second disintegration around 1000 BC (+/- 300 ). He has extensive set of mathematics to prove his theory.

This can explain certain observations.
  • How North Indian Vedic kingdom's Hinduism got immediate acceptance in South India when the Post Vedic period expansion ( after 500 BC) culminating in Mauryan empire ruling the almost all the current day India (+Pakistan+Afghanistan) by 250 B.C( leaving aside deep south early pandya's who still have good relations with Mauryan's). By 600 B.C , Hinduism has competition from Buddhism and Jainism. Irrespective of location every body has seen what happened in the sky, passed it on to next generation for these and any ruler who can explain it has a certain advantage. Though the Ashoka, the great emperor of Maurya dynasty converted to Buddhism and promoted it, After his dynasty, Buddhism was erased from India.
  • Mahabharata is some what different in the sense it is more earthly battle under nominal guidance of Krishna unlike Purana's where Vishnu has overpowering influence. Also, discussion on the moral dilemna's ( similar to Illiad) that gives more acceptance.
  • In Illiad, Helen is seduced and taken away , In Mahabharata, Draupadi was attempted to strip her sarry, before Krishna makes that saree so long that the attempt fails. One has to wonder where did that script came from? Is it observation of sky from different vantage point?
It's costly to get Victor Clube's Cosmic serpent, but I borrowed from archive.org and was reading. His theory of some comets get stuck( slowly disintegrating) in the Apollo asteroid steam that revolves between sun and Jupitor's under their massive gravity, constantly fed by external comets/asteroids like 3600 year cycle steam from oort cloud is fascinating and terrifying. It is like a neighborhood police station that can bombard at any time whenever human's deviate too much into vices. From Victor Clube/Bill Napier's 1984 paper
4 The contemporary stream
That Apollo asteroids as well as decaying comets feed meteor streams (Drummond 1982; Babadzhanov & Obrubov 1983) has been confirmed by the discovery of 1983 TB in the Geminid meteor stream (Fox, Williams & Hughes 1984). The latter is one of the strongest streams but several investigators (Whipple 1940; Stohl 1983) have emphasized the extent to which the currently less intense but broad Taurid-Arietid meteor stream and its daytime counterpart, the ß Taurid - J Perseid stream, generally dominate the inner Solar System at present. The Taurid-Arietid complex divides into northern and southern branches of equal intensity with the/? Taurid core being identified, probably, with the southern stream. The current appearances are in fact deceptive, since the fireball flux associated with the complex was evidently very much greater —1000 yr bp (Astapovic & Terenteva 1968) - indeed, the northern stream was then stronger, indicating an irregular fragmentation history. The material is believed to derive from the break-up of the Gomet Encke progenitor (Whipple 1940; Whipple & Hamid 1952) and apparently includes at least one undetected body comoving with the Southern Taurids and thus the ß Taurid core (June 24-July 6). These meteor streams are simply the denser parts of the remarkably broad stream through which the Earth passes in April-June and October-December (Stohl 1983) and to which about half the ‘sporadic’ meteors may belong. Also encompassed by this complex is, apparently, an appreciable fraction of the Apollo asteroid population (—10 per cent, implying a population of —100 bodies ^1 km: see Table 2). The common alignment of their longitudes of perihelia which move characteristically a few degress per millenium implies that the system may have been generated by fragmentations over the last few 103-104yr. Galibina & Kestel (1982), from numerical integration of the orbits of Hephaistos (—10 km) and Encke’s comet, consider that a separation of these two bodies probably occurred in the remote past, a suggestion also made by CN (1982c). However, there is a large difference in cb between the bodies, and on the basis of our numerical integrations (Clube, Napier & Asher, in preparation)
we now consider it to be just as likely that Hephaistos is a surviving remnant of one of the preceding giant Apollo-comets. Whipple & Hamid (1952) similarly inferred at least two significant past fragmentations (~2700bc, ~500ad) to account for the observed structure of the Taurid stream but if, as now appears likely, the undetected body is the principal descendant, one or two considerable fragmentations also probably occurred ~1000±300bc.
This leads me to Ramayan which is considered much older than Mahabharat. C's mentioned Rama as a "High priest" , not as king of Ayodhya in north India as Ramayan depicts.
Q: Who was the Queen of Sheba?

A: Fictional.
...
Q: Who was Arjuna?

A: Same as Sheba.

Q: Who is Shiva?

A: Same.

Q: Rama?

A: Indian. High priest influenced by Confederation.
Arjuna (one of the main character in Mahabharat) is fictional, but the main character in Ramayan (Rama) is real, but both are to record events of great significance.
Ramayan has its own weird characters, plot line.
  • Hanuman the flying monkey god who helped to locate Sita who was abducted by Ravana and taken to the land he ruled (Sri Lanka). Hanuman goes to Sri lanka , locates her and burns part of palace as a symbol.
  • It's monkey's who build bridge between India and Sri Lanka by throwing stones on the water. There is a never ending debate about this 30 miles long bridge ( called Adam's bridge/Rama's bridge) and whether it has any thing to do with religion or not.
    • Who built it, if it is not natural?
    • If natural, when is it drowned? . If it drowned 10,000 years ago when sea levels raised 500 ft, that is too far back for the Ramayan story.
    • does the density of water is such that, stones used to float at the time of Ramayan as some claimed?
  • Ravana normally has 1 head, but it can become 10 heads when he wants.
Whether Ramayan related to this apollo asteroid stream victor Clube/Bill Napier mentioned or not, I am not sure. It made me wonder whether Ramayan is related to 3000 BC disintegration of the gaint coment - with tailed integrating pieces (monkeys), falling in water and another peice becoming 10 more pieces(Ravana's head). Well, there is no way to know as all of these are so old, but it is interesting.

As a whole "Phenomenon" seems to have traumatic event , layers of overlapped stories at some point solidified into some coherent story with added historical kingdoms.
 
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