Two Sites On Thought Reform & Mind Control

purplehaze

Jedi Master
Two sites that talk about mind control & thought reform:

1. _http://www.changingminds.org

2. _http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html (this one gives a point by point breakdown of how cults do their mind control but can be extrapolated to "cultic" relationships as well)
 

Laura

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Very good sites.

One thing that I have noticed, though, is that once a person has been "brainwashed" by a cult or a "cultic relationship" (such as a relationship with a psychopath) that the only way to un-brainwash them is to sort of "back engineer" what was done to them and reverse the process. It sometimes takes a dozen people sharing their experiences and pointing out the similarities of what happened to them, to what happened to the person in need of "waking up" in order to "get through" to them. Anybody observing this process from the outside would swear that the people trying to help the person to wake up to the fact that they have been in the clutches of a psychopath are a "cult" themselves!

I think that we have to note that psychopathic control of human beings can only be countered by becoming "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." We have to understand completely how the psychopathic domination has been created and maintained and reverse that process by a sort of "social proof" where everyone tells their experiences.

One of the main things that psychopaths have done to our society which serves mainly to protect them, to hide their deeds in darkness and obscurity, is create a belief that talking about other people in a frank way, sharing our experiences, is "gossip." There is no distinction between lying about another person (or telling things that just cause trouble and don't need to be told) and telling the truth about negative experiences, lumping it all together into "gossip" as though examining our relationships and sharing our knowledge about human interaction is something that is very, very bad.

This is drilled into us almost from infancy.

You know, its funny to notice that the Ten Commandments does NOT have a commandment against lying, per se. What it says is: Thou shalt not BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST thy neighbor.

It's also funny (not "haha" but ironic) that this is the main thing that psychopaths do.
 

Annette1

Jedi
Laura said:
One of the main things that psychopaths have done to our society which serves mainly to protect them, to hide their deeds in darkness and obscurity, is create a belief that talking about other people in a frank way, sharing our experiences, is "gossip." There is no distinction between lying about another person (or telling things that just cause trouble and don't need to be told) and telling the truth about negative experiences, lumping it all together into "gossip" as though examining our relationships and sharing our knowledge about human interaction is something that is very, very bad.

This is drilled into us almost from infancy.
HOW TRUE!! How many times did I run up against this!!! I am usually dismissed by being labeled as having a "negative attitude" when telling the truth about such things. It's as if the person sticks their fingers in their ears and starts singing "lalalalala. I can't hear you."
 

Laura

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Annette said:
How many times did I run up against this!!! I am usually dismissed by being labeled as having a "negative attitude" when telling the truth about such things. It's as if the person sticks their fingers in their ears and starts singing "lalalalala. I can't hear you."
Yeah. And this is doubly true when it comes to talking about these things publicly. Heck, that's why I'm being sued! How dare any of us discuss the experiences that some people have had with Eric Pepin and suggest that, based on the testimony, they might very well be true?

Same with exposing Vincent Bridges and a whole host of other cyberpaths of various shapes and types.

Just have a look at the nutcase making comments about the fact that we believe that we have a right to discuss these things in order to protect ourselves from the predations of pathological con-artists on this page: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977361322
 

Bernhard

Jedi Master
Laura said:
You know, its funny to notice that the Ten Commandments does NOT have a commandment against lying, per se. What it says is: Thou shalt not BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST thy neighbor.
Reminded me of an excerpt from Gnosis I by Mouravieff:

Mouravieff said:
We lie for different reasons, wishing generally to ameliorate situations which seem to us unbearable or difficult to accept. Lies thus open the way for mechanisms of rationalization or of justification, which are ways of 'patching up'. We shall further see on how the entangled behavior of persons round about us provoke many shocks, creating difficult and sometimes insoluble situations of human relations, veritable 'Gordian Knots'. It is thus in the utmost good faith that we resort to lies.

This being so, the attitude of the esoteric Doctrine towards lying is clear and realistic. It does not require us to stop lying from the start, because nobody can carry out such a resolution. However, if man cannot stop lying to others, the same cannot be said as far as he himself is concerned. He is therefore asked to stop lying to himself - and this in a definite way. This requirement is absolute, and we can easily understand why. The objective of esoteric work is the march towards Consciousness, which means towards Truth. It would be a 'contradictio in objecto' to try to approach the truth while continuing to lie to ourselves or to believe in our own lies. We must therefore eliminate any attempt to lie to ourselves: on this point no compromise can be tolerated, no excuse admitted.

But while in our present condition we cannot live without lying to others, we must at least be conscious of our lies.

There is, nevertheless, another recommendation which we can make in this domain. In the ensemble of our lies to others, tolerated esoterically, we must distinguish between those lies which are indispensable or inevitable, those lies which are simply useful, and those which are not. The Doctrine asks those who study it to fight energetically against those useless lies.

It is only by training of this nature that we shall progressively be able to master the rooted tendency to lie which exists within us. Every attempt to hurry things, so far as lying to others is concerned, though it be a noble attempt, is doomed to early failure. We live in a world which is immersed in lies and moved by lies. It is to be noted that the Decalogue, which imposes observable commandments on man, does not forbid him from lying except in a small sector of human relations; that of bearing false witness, and also in situations where he is already badly predisposed to someone.
So, according to esoteric science lying to others is "ok" under certain circumstances, but lying to oneself needs to be stopped altogether.
I think as an example, the Nazi occupation in France has been discussed on here and the French protecting their friends/families by lying to the Nazis.
However, are there everyday situations in this day and age where lying to another is acceptable without falling into the category of a psychopath?
In other words, not everyone who lies is a psychopath and there are certain "useful" lies that can help with the Work and could be considered "external consideration". Am I seeing this correctly or am I mixing things up?
 

PepperFritz

The Living Force
Bernhard said:
However, are there everyday situations in this day and age where lying to another is acceptable without falling into the category of a psychopath? In other words, not everyone who lies is a psychopath and there are certain "useful" lies that can help with the Work and could be considered "external consideration".
Good question. Another way of putting it: Is telling the "truth" always necessary or even desirable? I think of the kind of "lying" that might be neceesary in order to protect oneself via "strategic enclosure". I also think of situations where telling the "truth" would only cause unnecessary pain for another? I've known people who pride themselves on being "honest", and wield "truth" against others like a weapon. I guess intent is an important factor, as well as discernment: knowing when a lie is "useless" or unnecessary, when it is best to be "truthful" or not.

I've found that it's a very common trait of psychopaths and narcissists to routinely tell "useless" lies. They seem to enjoy lying for no reason whatsoever, about something as trivial as what they had for breakfast.
 

Jimbo

Padawan Learner
PepperFritz said:
Bernhard said:
However, are there everyday situations in this day and age where lying to another is acceptable without falling into the category of a psychopath? In other words, not everyone who lies is a psychopath and there are certain "useful" lies that can help with the Work and could be considered "external consideration".
Good question. Another way of putting it: Is telling the "truth" always necessary or even desirable? I think of the kind of "lying" that might be neceesary in order to protect oneself via "strategic enclosure". I also think of situations where telling the "truth" would only cause unnecessary pain for another? I've known people who pride themselves on being "honest", and wield "truth" against others like a weapon. I guess intent is an important factor, as well as discernment: knowing when a lie is "useless" or unnecessary, when it is best to be "truthful" or not.

I've found that it's a very common trait of psychopaths and narcissists to routinely tell "useless" lies. They seem to enjoy lying for no reason whatsoever, about something as trivial as what they had for breakfast.
Hey pepperfritz and bernhard, This thread might be useful to help answer your questions. The whole post (five pages) is all very insightful, but at least read down to Laura's post (semi-half way down the first page) where she describes external considering and the strategic enclosure.
A great quote from Gurdjieff that relates to this matter is; "sincerity with everyone is weakness, and weakness makes one food".
 

Laura

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Jimbo said:
A great quote from Gurdjieff that relates to this matter is; "sincerity with everyone is weakness, and weakness makes one food".
Actually, only the first part is from Gurdjieff, the second part is what I added to "sincerity with everyone is weakness." I'll go put some quote marks in the referenced thread so that will be clear.
 

PepperFritz

The Living Force
Jimbo said:
Hey pepperfritz and bernhard, This thread might be useful to help answer your questions. The whole post (five pages) is all very insightful, but at least read down to Laura's post (semi-half way down the first page) where she describes external considering and the strategic enclosure.
Wow, an EXCELLENT thread, Jimbo. Thank you for directing me to it.
 

purplehaze

Jedi Master
That's trying to you control by "making you feel guilty"

Particularly with women and their "disease to be nice & please people" crap that has been drilled into them by society

Annette1 said:
I am usually dismissed by being labeled as having a "negative attitude" when telling the truth about such things. It's as if the person sticks their fingers in their ears and starts singing "lalalalala. I can't hear you."
 

Annette1

Jedi
purplehaze said:
That's trying to you control by "making you feel guilty"

Particularly with women and their "disease to be nice & please people" crap that has been drilled into them by society
Yes, sometimes it has been used in this manner. Other times it's the "love and light" faction who doesn't want to hear "truth" cuz it just doesn't fit their reality. The words "rude awakening" come to mind.

I have been referred to as a "hardened woman" or my personal favorite, "b----". Both terms are used/meant in a derogatory manner. Rolls like water off a duck's back at this point. Further, when a man has referred to me as a "b----", it signals me that I was successful (at dodging or escaping) because generally it means that he was not able and cannot figure out how to control me. (generally workplace situations) Current en vogue is "negative attitude;" it's not sexist or vulgar. ("politically correct") It also accomplishes the "shoot the messenger" routine.

One thing I learned long ago was the "guilt trip maneuver" via my mother. In my opinion, guilt is a useless emotion. If I have harmed you in some way, I can try and make amends and apologize. More than that I cannot do. I don't live my life doing evil things to people. I do make mistakes and I accept responsibility for my errors. I may feel bad if I've hurt someone but I don't beat myself up with a "guilt club" over it. When you think about it what, precisely, does "guilt" accomplish? I've never seen anything constructive come about because of guilt. So, when I recognize a "guilt trip maneuver," I consider it rather revealing and it doesn't work very well with me. One of the positive affects of having a narcissistically inclined mother.
 

Meg

The Living Force
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Purplehaze said:
Particularly with women and their "disease to be nice & please people" crap that has been drilled into them by society
My mother grew up in the deep South. In her early teens, she was sent to "charm school' and her mother went at that age as well. Those schools are still around and teach women precisely what you mentioned above. "Appearance is everything." "Be nice" because you are responsible for other peoples reactions and a womans place is to be a attractive, nice, compliant, unthinking, charming lady. It also speaks volumes of how women were/are valued in society, imo. I am sure the pathocrats are happy with it, tho:)

Annette said:
I have been referred to as a "hardened woman" or my personal favorite, "b----". Both terms are used/meant in a derogatory manner. Rolls like water off a duck's back at this point. Further, when a man has referred to me as a "b----", it signals me that I was successful (at dodging or escaping) because generally it means that he was not able and cannot figure out how to control me.
Same here to a degree. I guess I would have flunked "charm school" if I had gone.
 

cubs2626

A Disturbance in the Force
purplehaze said:
That's trying to you control by "making you feel guilty"

Particularly with women and their "disease to be nice & please people" crap that has been drilled into them by society
that's so true :-)
 
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