Carl said:Mikha'el said:I cannot say that empirical truth exists or doesn't exist somewhere in the Universe.
My point, which I don't think I expressed fully is that we are unable, as human beings in this 3rd density existence, to understand or appreciate empirical truth. So, in effect, empirical truth cannot exist within the human psyche. Since all things we do in this existence begin with the psyche, for all intents and purposes empirical wisdom does not exist. Perhaps we will evolve to the point where we can truly appreciate empirical knowledge, but then would we still be 3rd density at that point?
Of course we can't know the full empirical truth, but that doesn't stop us from getting as close as we can while in human form.
People can disagree with me all day long and all it will do is inspire me to learn from them. It doesn't need to be in the form of an attack or rude, however. That is what I meant about not saying something if it isn't nice. There are a plethora of ways to contradict someone and still remain civil.
Civility and niceness are 2 different things but yes of course - I don't think you've been treated in any way other than civil if that is what you're saying. In fact discussions almost anywhere else on the internet apart from here would have devolved into insults by now.
I would hope that, in the context of discussions in this forum, we would not attack each other on a personal level. If you read something into a post that is not expressly written then it would be better to keep that to yourself until it is confirmed. Even then, that is a situation where personal opinion factors very heavily and it may be best to not say anything at all. Or if you do feel compelled to say something, at least couch it in language that is not overly offensive.
Also we need to bear in mind that not all of us can express ourselves as well as we may wish. I complain about that a lot actually, because I am constantly having to go back and correct presumptions that people have made about me. Most of these presumptions were made because I either misstated myself or left out relevant information.
Sometimes people make mistakes in judgement - most of us try not to write in very direct terms too much because of this. But the stuff about 'not reading what is not expressly written' is just nonsense. You'll see this if for a moment you grok the fact that people can see us better than we can see ourselves.
To avoid going into too much wiseacring on the nature of truth etc., let's tie together the ideas of 'arriving at truth via networking' and the idea of 'don't read between the lines in my posts anything that is not expressly written' into an example:
For instance if I make a guess based on my first 'blink' reaction, and then upon further reading between the lines in your posts, about some of your subconscious beliefs about yourself. I.E. You pride yourself somewhat on your intellect, have a pretty self important and morally superior attitude, and have a fair bit of perfectionism thrown in there too. Quite common stuff that many of us have, and often don't see until it's pointed out.
I could be totally wrong and just based on my unconscious reactions to you. But then if 15 more people all observe the same thing and thought similar things, then it is much more likely to be true, no?
Especially when you read the enormous amount of research out there that shows that we can't trust our own thinking too much and that other people see us better than we see ourselves.
I hope you don't just end up feeling further attacked by this anyway, that's the best way I can put it tonight.
Brilliantly stated. All of it.
To your first point, yes I agree.
I could be a little sensitive to ways that some people post, so I apologize if that is the case. For example, I really dislike having my posts cherry picked.
You're right about 'civil' and 'nice'. I should not have used the word 'nice'. That was not my intention. All I hope for is civility of tone not content.
Also, I could point out the few posts that I feel are uncivil but that wouldn't accomplish anything.
As to your reading behind the lines, spot on. I won't argue any of that (except maybe the self important part), and I am fully aware of those parts of my personality. They have served me well, in fact, because I have accepted them. I make a special effort to not allow those parts of my personality to affect other people, however.
You misread part of my post, though. I never implied or tried to imply that people don't read between the lines, so to speak. We all do that and it is a powerful tool for growth to allow others to share their perceptions of you. I don't have a problem with that at all. In fact, I welcome it.
The issue is tact. You, sir, are very tactful in your approach and you are able to state the things that other want to say in a manner that is fairly inoffensive. I can deal with that and I respect that ability. I hope that I have a fair amount of that ability myself when I choose to apply it.
That was the thrust of that statement, it would be better to not say something if it will be ill received. Especially when pointing out personality foibles. Nothing will dissuade someone from contributing faster than if they feel they are being made the brunt of an attack. Regardless if that is the case or not, it is the individual's perception that is paramount in that type of situation.
Having said that, it is also easier to deal with direct criticism when it comes from a trusted source. I don't really know anyone on this forum at all, and no one can say that they know me. It is irrelevant whose fault that is. So it makes it a bit harder to accept criticism from a) someone you don't know or trust b) couches that criticism in language or a tone that is offensive to the one being criticized.
Thus, since we can't always know what will offend someone, it would be better to either leave it to someone else with better people skills, take the conversation offline or just let it go.
I would always welcome a pm from anyone and you could be as rude or direct as you like. In a public space however, I feel that we should have a higher level of respect for each other.
I don't know about you but my understanding of what we are to be doing to prepare right now is looking to ourselves and fixing what is there. At least that is what I have understood from the readings.