bedower
Jedi Master
I’ve been debating for some weeks now whether or not to post this, but reading these Cass extracts quoted in the post ‘The Life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts’, to be found here made up my mind. This story is better known in the west as ‘The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus’, and other forum members may find it as intriguing as I do, in light of some of the responses made by the Cassiopaeans to Laura’s questions concerning Jesus. The narrative is, in some respects, also reminiscent of Lobsang Rampa’s book ‘The Hermit’, which centred around a cave and what happened to the hermit in it. Rampa’s book was written in the early 60’s, before the idea of ‘alien abductions’ came to the forefront of human consciousness. The following narrative was written down in the 7th century.
And this:
I’ve bolded part of these quotes, and you will see why as you read this Qur'anic ‘Seven sleepers’ narrative, taken from Sura (chapter)18 ‘The Cave’. I’ve set down the verses in full (slightly edited for clarity), but numbered the lines for ease of relating to the questions, given below, which have arisen in my mind about this narration. Three translations have been used here: Yusuf Ali; Hilali/Khan and Zidan. Some differences in translation have been put in brackets, but most importantly, all translators use the same pronouns except in the one case given below.
1-2. The implication here is that the story of the Seven sleepers was widely known during this
time. According to Yusuf Ali’s notes, it was a Syriac (sic) writer in the 6th century who
suggested that this event took place when Emperor Trajan Decius (249-151 CE) was
persecuting the Christians.
3. No one seems to know what the Inscription is.
4. Something I have noticed about the Qur’an is that whenever the word ‘Signs’ is used we
are meant to take particular notice of the phenomena in the verse; that it has a special
significance. Imo.
5-8. This verse seems straightforward enough, if we were reading it straightforwardly.
9-10. What could have caused this, in a practical sense?
11-13. They were put to sleep, and woken up after a number of years. But who was the other
party? Were there only two original sleepers; only two people?
16. ‘And We advanced them in guidance’. Sound familiar?
17. ‘We gave strength to their hearts’. What comes to my mind now is some form of
genetic modification.
18-24. Greenbaumed?
25-29. ‘Go to the Cave; God is there’ Who says this; who tells them this?
30-32. Why draw attention to the direction of the rising and setting of the sun, and why ‘declination’
(Yusuf Ali, il-Hilali/Khan)? Only Zidan uses ‘inclination’. ‘Declination’ is, according to the notes
of Yusuf Ali, ‘an astronomical term referring to the angular distance of the sun north or
south of the celestial equator’. From this verse, the deduction is that the cave
mouth faced north, so the cave mouth was dark and uninviting, out of the way; hidden from
casual sight. (The use of the unusual ‘declination’ raises the question of whether the ‘cave’
was actually on Earth.) There was light, because they could see each other. No mention of
the cave being sealed.
33. Another ‘Sign’ to be examined closely.
38-39. Were their eyes open?
40. And they were regularly turned, like bed patients.
41. Why the necessity to point out how their dog (traditionally known as Qitmir) lay,
‘stretching his forelegs at the entrance’ like a guardian on the threshold?
42-43. Both Yusuf Ali and Zidan use the ‘If’ conditional here. But there are three words in Arabic
which express this conditional, and they all mean something slightly different; e.g. idha
means an ‘if’ that is very possible; in is an ‘if’ that is an achievable hypothesis, and
lau is an ‘if’ that is used for an unachievable hypothesis. In this sentence, the ‘if’
conditional is expressed as lau, so the meaning is ‘If you could have looked upon
them, which would not have been possible anyway...’ This in turn means, osit, that
wherever this cave was, there was no possibility of anyone stumbling on it by accident after
these youths had entered it. In other words, it was closed off to the outside world. And who
were the ‘them’, that in beholding ‘them’ we would have been filled with such terror and
awe? Was it the Sleepers, or was it another ‘them’?
46-47. Who was the first speaker (‘from among them’) who says ‘you’ (pl.) several times
passim, instead of the expected ‘we’ and ‘us’? (Exception: Zidan uses ‘us’, but not ‘we’.
Taken with Mr & Mrs Zidan’s usage of ‘inclination’ for the sun’s rising in v.17, I’m
assuming that they have also picked upon the narrative curiosities.)
48-49. Who are the ‘they’ who reply; “Your Lord is well aware...”, after the Sleepers say
they have been in the cave only ‘a day or part of a day’?
50-52. ...and ‘you’ (pl.) four times here? Who else was in the cave with them, and how many were
there?
56. ‘Even so, We made their case known to the people’, by the old-fashioned clothing and
strange money.
60-63. The townspeople here seem to be referring to the Sleepers in the past tense. Nowhere in the
rest of the sura is it even hinted at what became of the Sleepers after they left the cave
‘advanced...in guidance’? Does anyone have any further information on this?
64-67. There is confusion about how many Sleepers were actually in the cave. According to Yusuf
Ali’s notes, the number seven was suggested by the same Syriac (sic) writer mentioned
above. Also, the dog, Qitmir (?), is mentioned three times in this verse, but why include it
in their number? Why the point about how the dog lay in the cave? Dogs are negis,
unclean, in Islamic tradition. Why such emphasis on the dog in this and verse 18?
69. ‘It is but a few that know their real case.’ If this event really happened, there must
be quite a few of us who can take a guess!
70-71. This is a most definite injunction against speculating on this matter, and would include this
post! Why is such a specific injunction laid on discussing the number of the Sleepers, and
by extension the whole narrative, at the end of this verse?
72-74. Although this is the number of years given in the Qur’an, various contemporary Christian
writers, such as Simon Metaphrastes, have given different numbers (YA). So we have the
309 actual years given in the Qur’an compressed into the few virtual hours of the Sleepers
(v.19).
This strange story has intrigued me for a long time. I should be glad to know if it was just the invention of a storyteller, so I can forget all about it! At best, it is a frustrating enigma, and at worst it is a distraction!
And this:
I’ve bolded part of these quotes, and you will see why as you read this Qur'anic ‘Seven sleepers’ narrative, taken from Sura (chapter)18 ‘The Cave’. I’ve set down the verses in full (slightly edited for clarity), but numbered the lines for ease of relating to the questions, given below, which have arisen in my mind about this narration. Three translations have been used here: Yusuf Ali; Hilali/Khan and Zidan. Some differences in translation have been put in brackets, but most importantly, all translators use the same pronouns except in the one case given below.
1-2. The implication here is that the story of the Seven sleepers was widely known during this
time. According to Yusuf Ali’s notes, it was a Syriac (sic) writer in the 6th century who
suggested that this event took place when Emperor Trajan Decius (249-151 CE) was
persecuting the Christians.
3. No one seems to know what the Inscription is.
4. Something I have noticed about the Qur’an is that whenever the word ‘Signs’ is used we
are meant to take particular notice of the phenomena in the verse; that it has a special
significance. Imo.
5-8. This verse seems straightforward enough, if we were reading it straightforwardly.
9-10. What could have caused this, in a practical sense?
11-13. They were put to sleep, and woken up after a number of years. But who was the other
party? Were there only two original sleepers; only two people?
16. ‘And We advanced them in guidance’. Sound familiar?
17. ‘We gave strength to their hearts’. What comes to my mind now is some form of
genetic modification.
18-24. Greenbaumed?
25-29. ‘Go to the Cave; God is there’ Who says this; who tells them this?
30-32. Why draw attention to the direction of the rising and setting of the sun, and why ‘declination’
(Yusuf Ali, il-Hilali/Khan)? Only Zidan uses ‘inclination’. ‘Declination’ is, according to the notes
of Yusuf Ali, ‘an astronomical term referring to the angular distance of the sun north or
south of the celestial equator’. From this verse, the deduction is that the cave
mouth faced north, so the cave mouth was dark and uninviting, out of the way; hidden from
casual sight. (The use of the unusual ‘declination’ raises the question of whether the ‘cave’
was actually on Earth.) There was light, because they could see each other. No mention of
the cave being sealed.
33. Another ‘Sign’ to be examined closely.
38-39. Were their eyes open?
40. And they were regularly turned, like bed patients.
41. Why the necessity to point out how their dog (traditionally known as Qitmir) lay,
‘stretching his forelegs at the entrance’ like a guardian on the threshold?
42-43. Both Yusuf Ali and Zidan use the ‘If’ conditional here. But there are three words in Arabic
which express this conditional, and they all mean something slightly different; e.g. idha
means an ‘if’ that is very possible; in is an ‘if’ that is an achievable hypothesis, and
lau is an ‘if’ that is used for an unachievable hypothesis. In this sentence, the ‘if’
conditional is expressed as lau, so the meaning is ‘If you could have looked upon
them, which would not have been possible anyway...’ This in turn means, osit, that
wherever this cave was, there was no possibility of anyone stumbling on it by accident after
these youths had entered it. In other words, it was closed off to the outside world. And who
were the ‘them’, that in beholding ‘them’ we would have been filled with such terror and
awe? Was it the Sleepers, or was it another ‘them’?
46-47. Who was the first speaker (‘from among them’) who says ‘you’ (pl.) several times
passim, instead of the expected ‘we’ and ‘us’? (Exception: Zidan uses ‘us’, but not ‘we’.
Taken with Mr & Mrs Zidan’s usage of ‘inclination’ for the sun’s rising in v.17, I’m
assuming that they have also picked upon the narrative curiosities.)
48-49. Who are the ‘they’ who reply; “Your Lord is well aware...”, after the Sleepers say
they have been in the cave only ‘a day or part of a day’?
50-52. ...and ‘you’ (pl.) four times here? Who else was in the cave with them, and how many were
there?
56. ‘Even so, We made their case known to the people’, by the old-fashioned clothing and
strange money.
60-63. The townspeople here seem to be referring to the Sleepers in the past tense. Nowhere in the
rest of the sura is it even hinted at what became of the Sleepers after they left the cave
‘advanced...in guidance’? Does anyone have any further information on this?
64-67. There is confusion about how many Sleepers were actually in the cave. According to Yusuf
Ali’s notes, the number seven was suggested by the same Syriac (sic) writer mentioned
above. Also, the dog, Qitmir (?), is mentioned three times in this verse, but why include it
in their number? Why the point about how the dog lay in the cave? Dogs are negis,
unclean, in Islamic tradition. Why such emphasis on the dog in this and verse 18?
69. ‘It is but a few that know their real case.’ If this event really happened, there must
be quite a few of us who can take a guess!
70-71. This is a most definite injunction against speculating on this matter, and would include this
post! Why is such a specific injunction laid on discussing the number of the Sleepers, and
by extension the whole narrative, at the end of this verse?
72-74. Although this is the number of years given in the Qur’an, various contemporary Christian
writers, such as Simon Metaphrastes, have given different numbers (YA). So we have the
309 actual years given in the Qur’an compressed into the few virtual hours of the Sleepers
(v.19).
This strange story has intrigued me for a long time. I should be glad to know if it was just the invention of a storyteller, so I can forget all about it! At best, it is a frustrating enigma, and at worst it is a distraction!