The Rapture Myth a Con designed to pay off *after* the arrival of the Wave?

Woodsman

The Living Force
I've been thinking about the Christian notion of the Rapture and how it relates with what might be expected with the arrival of the Wave. A new idea has solidified in my mind. . .

--I read a comment a couple of days ago on a different discussion site. It is a site which plays host to a large number of regular people from all walks of life, including a sizable percentage of Christians and Atheists. --Such old debates as the, "How do you explain dinosaur bones?" are still popularly discussed with earnest verve and passion. Anyway, the comment I ran across which ignited my thinking ran to the tune of, "Yeah, well when people suddenly start to vanish all over the world as they are taken up in the Rapture, you'll sing a different song!" (Or something like that.)

That was one of the more out-spoken comments, but I suspect the belief in a physically observable Rapture as described in such hugely popular books as the, "Left Behind" series, are quietly held by many more than speak out. It's very easy to be ridiculed for such statements, and so few people come right out and declare their full beliefs.

Okay. That's the background.

Now, it has been well observed before that when one considers the C's descriptions of what might be expected upon the arrival of the Wave, that there are some stark similarities to that which is predicted for the Rapture. --The main idea being that presumably some people would appear to vanish from from the world and others would not.

If the plan of the hyperdimensional cattle herders is to control that portion of the population which successfully transits to 4th density, then sculpting beliefs before they get there would be a powerful means of achieving that control. A population is far easier to manage if there is in place some element of self-policing with regard to the beliefs of what is real and what is possible.

There are a number of ways such a scenario might play out. The one which interests me here is how it all might look from the perspective of people who find themselves newly arrived in 4th D. The scenario I am looking at runs like this. . .

The wave has come and gone, and the dust has settled. Would a person blinking into their new 4th density reality know what had happened to them? --Well, those who haven't read up on SOTT works or similar would almost certainly not be thinking in terms of having moved up an energetic level to the next density. More likely, it might not be immediately apparent that they had in fact moved at all. With the body-centric viewpoint so firmly planted in our psyches, it may seem more likely to such people that everything *else* had changed while they had remained stationary.

They would presumably notice that some people who had been there before no longer remain. --The world, with its static rules regarding time and space, would appear very different, probably causing enormous fear and anxiety in the new arrivals. --As such, I can't imagine that it would feel like Heaven. Rather, it might feel as though God had abandoned them, --that those who were no longer present had in fact been the ones taken up in the Rapture, while everybody else had been "Left Behind".

Quite the reversal!

--After all, everybody is trained by the Christian religion to get used to accepting the idea of personal guilt. And if alien enforcers (demons?) take to terrorizing the new arrivals with cattle prods, this perception of having been Left Behind might seem all the more viable in the eyes of a person newly risen to 4th D. "God has abandoned us to the Devil!"

If, however, a person is familiar with the concept of densities as described by the Cs, and grasps that time and space in 4th D are likely to be much less limiting, --that one might walk into a bedroom closet and out again into Moscow. . , then how on Earth can such a person be easily controlled? If the entire arriving new population were to be aware of how densities work, then it might indeed tip the scales in favor of planetary freedom.

By contrast, a population which hangs their heads before the 'demon' hoard thinking, "I've been a bad person forsaken by god, and I deserve this punishment," then how likely will they be to even *try* to seek their own freedom? Such people may well think, (as people stricken with the desire to submit before a heavenly father figure are wont to do), that, "Well, perhaps if I am really, really good, if I keep turning that other cheek, if I suffer enough, if I show that I really am a good Christian, maybe God will forgive me and take me away from all of this. Didn't I hear someone say that the Rapture happens in waves. . ?"

What a perfect prisoner!

When I consider the kinds of people who would have appeared to have been taken up in the Rapture, (but who in actuality simply remained in 3rd D), these would be people who did not have the requisite levels of energy or a suitably advanced soul matrix (or whatever mechanism is involved) which would make them suitable or able to ride the Wave crest up to the next level. Such people might be characterized as having naturally lower levels of awareness. --More simple in their thought constructs; the kind of people who naturally find themselves attracted to religion and who are comfortable in staying there. i.e., Model Christians.

If that line of conjecture is correct, then it would certainly play into the belief of the newly arrived 4th D residents that they were themselves *not* good Christians, and gosh darn it, the preacher was right all along; --They shouldn't have exercised so much inquisitive thinking and questioning of god's plan. And now they are being punished for their lack of faith by being left behind in a nightmare land of mirrors and monsters. "God was holding things together all along, and now that he has abandoned us, even the physical laws are falling apart!"

When I consider all of this, it strikes me that a large portion of the struggle for the planet may very well be wrapped up in this specific issue.

I may, of course, have it completely wrong, but the thought seemed worth putting out there.
 
Hello Woodsman, welcome to the forum.

I'm wondering if you have yet had the opportunity read Laura's Wave series in its entirety, because you seem to have a few misconceptions about some of the concepts that appear in that work and the C transcripts (at least as I understand them).

While the scenario you envision *may* reflect what the STS 4th-density forces are planning and "hoping" will take place on a post-Wave 4th-density Earth, the C's suggest that those plans are simply "wishful thinking" on their part. My understanding of the material is that those who make the transition to 4th density cannot be "deceived" in the manner you suggest because at 4th density everyone will be aware of everyone else's thoughts and intentions. You might want to consider Laura's online article "The Cassiopaeans Answer Questions About Ascension", especially the following:

Cs: When "Earth" becomes a 4th density realm, all the forces, both STS and STO shall be in direct contact with one another... It will be a "level playing field," thus, balanced....
Q: (L) Well, since there is so many of us here, why don't they just move in and take over?
Cs: That is their intention. That has been their intention for quite some time They have been traveling back and forth through time as you know it, to set things up so that they can absorb a maximum amount of negative energy with the transference from third level to fourth level that this planet is going to experience, in the hopes that they can overtake you on the fourth level.... Interestingly enough, though, all of this will fail.
Q: (L) How can you be so sure it will fail?
A: Because we see it. We are able to see all, not just what we want to see. Their failing is that they see only what they want to see.

As I understand it, the C's seem to be telling us that we shouldn't focus on what is or isn't going to happen in 4th density, that our focus needs to be in the here and now, in order to ensure that we are ready for the Wave if and when it arrives. The C's emphasize that KNOWLEDGE is the key, and that it is only through the APPLICATION of knowledge -- here, in third-density -- that we can raise our awareness of objective reality, and our frequency, and thus become "STO candidates".

As this is your first post, perhaps you could post a little introduction about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us what brought you to this forum, which of Laura's books you have read to date, how long you have been reading this forum and the SOTT site, etc.

:)
 
PepperFritz said:
Hello Woodsman, welcome to the forum.

I'm wondering if you have yet had the opportunity read Laura's Wave series in its entirety, because you seem to have a few misconceptions about some of the concepts that appear in that work and the C transcripts (at least as I understand them).

While the scenario you envision *may* reflect what the STS 4th-density forces are planning and "hoping" will take place on a post-Wave 4th-density Earth, the C's suggest that those plans are simply "wishful thinking" on their part. My understanding of the material is that those who make the transition to 4th density cannot be "deceived" in the manner you suggest because at 4th density everyone will be aware of everyone else's thoughts and intentions. You might want to consider Laura's online article "The Cassiopaeans Answer Questions About Ascension", especially the following:

Cs: When "Earth" becomes a 4th density realm, all the forces, both STS and STO shall be in direct contact with one another... It will be a "level playing field," thus, balanced....
Q: (L) Well, since there is so many of us here, why don't they just move in and take over?
Cs: That is their intention. That has been their intention for quite some time They have been traveling back and forth through time as you know it, to set things up so that they can absorb a maximum amount of negative energy with the transference from third level to fourth level that this planet is going to experience, in the hopes that they can overtake you on the fourth level.... Interestingly enough, though, all of this will fail.
Q: (L) How can you be so sure it will fail?
A: Because we see it. We are able to see all, not just what we want to see. Their failing is that they see only what they want to see.

As I understand it, the C's seem to be telling us that we shouldn't focus on what is or isn't going to happen in 4th density, that our focus needs to be in the here and now, in order to ensure that we are ready for the Wave if and when it arrives. The C's emphasize that KNOWLEDGE is the key, and that it is only through the APPLICATION of knowledge -- here, in third-density -- that we can raise our awareness of objective reality, and our frequency, and thus become "STO candidates".

As this is your first post, perhaps you could post a little introduction about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us what brought you to this forum, which of Laura's books you have read to date, how long you have been reading this forum and the SOTT site, etc.

:)

Ah! Good point. I'd neglected to take into consideration that aspect of 4th density.

An all-encompassing psychic connection between occupants of 4th D would make a grand deceit of the kind I was pondering a rather more complex, if not an outright impossible thing to achieve. If malicious intentions are naked things, individuals could then choose whether or not to align themselves with them based on personal bias with regard to service.

The portion of the transcripts you quoted is indeed something of a touchstone for me, but I also sometimes worry that I might be treating it like a Sacred Cow. My reaction to that impulse is to tell myself that encouraging notes of the type should not be taken as invitations to stop considering possible modes of attack. --That such continual vigilance is perhaps even required for such a positive reality to unfold.

Though, part of the reason is also simply that I am fascinated by the many imagination-igniting concepts discussed by the C's. Like puzzle pieces or lego bricks; I wonder in what ways they might all fit together. "If X = Y, then what does Y x 2 =?" It's fun to measure and think and ponder, and in fact, continual thinking in this manner, projecting possible outcomes based on current known quantities, has been a successful tool for navigating my life thus far.

However, the various materials accumulated over the years on this site do also seem to suggest that focusing on the here and now, objective reality, is a most prudent use of one's time and energy, that the future is something to watch unfold without anticipation. That makes a lot of sense as well, given that we are not in a position to appreciate the complexity of 4th density, and that as such, trying to project and plan for such an environment is a bit silly.

It's a bit of a paradox for me, I find. Thus far, I've decided to trust in my general sense of fascination in playing with and experimenting with ideas as they pop up.

Thank-you for your comments and your warm welcome. I've actually posted a couple of times before, but that was several years ago and I didn't really have much to offer which hadn't been said already. The contributors here are really quite thorough. --The times when I've felt compelled to post a comment, a quick search would reveal that all my ideas had been previously addressed and discussed, so it had always seemed counter-productive to add more channel chatter. I was surprised this time to find that I actually had something which looked like a new and possibly useful idea, hence my posting. Anyway, I've long since lost my original account login information, so I'll go and post a new hello as you suggest.

Cheers!
 
Again, have you read Laura's Wave series yet? I have the impression that you've been reading her work in bits and pieces and/or reading the transcripts by themselves, out of context. Which is fine, but it leads to a lot of misconceptions, such as those evidenced in your posts thus far. I think you'll find that a lot more of the "pieces" will fall into place once you've read it, as it provides the best introduction to and grounding in the core ideas and concepts discussed here. It can be read online HERE.


Woodsman said:
The portion of the transcripts you quoted is indeed something of a touchstone for me, but I also sometimes worry that I might be treating it like a Sacred Cow. My reaction to that impulse is to tell myself that encouraging notes of the type should not be taken as invitations to stop considering possible modes of attack. --That such continual vigilance is perhaps even required for such a positive reality to unfold.

I don't think you are so much "treating it like a Sacred Cow" as misunderstanding it. On a personal level, what will or will not happen after the shift to 4th-density is quite irrelevant if you do not work on becoming what the C's call an "STO-candidate", a prime requirement for making the shift. And the work has to be done in the here and now, before the shift, not after. As the C's tell us again and again, it is not WHERE you are when the shift arrives, but WHO you are and WHAT YOU SEE. They also emphasize that KNOWLEDGE PROTECTS, but that knowledge must be APPLIED in order to be effective. In other words, one has to become AWAKE and able to view both oneself and the world we live in OBJECTIVELY, as it is, and not as we wish it to be.


Woodsman said:
The times when I've felt compelled to post a comment, a quick search would reveal that all my ideas had been previously addressed and discussed, so it had always seemed counter-productive to add more channel chatter. I was surprised this time to find that I actually had something which looked like a new and possibly useful idea, hence my posting.

I know it can sometimes be daunting for newcomers to jump in and participate, but I strongly encourage you to do so, as it is an important part of the "networking" activity that the C's so strongly recommend. Are you familiar with the ideas of Gurdjieff? If not, you might want to read up a little on his 4th Way teaching, generally referred to here as "The Work". It is a method recommended to and practiced by most members of this forum, as the best way to begin to objectively observe our own programs and mechanical (asleep) behaviour; one that requires participation in a group such as this, where others also involved in the Work can provide feedback and act as a "mirror" in which we can learn more about ourselves and blind spots.

Hope I've not overwhelmed you with all that. I look forward to interacting with you on the forum. :)
 
I know it can sometimes be daunting for newcomers to jump in and participate, but I strongly encourage you to do so, as it is an important part of the "networking" activity that the C's so strongly recommend. Are you familiar with the ideas of Gurdjieff? If not, you might want to read up a little on his 4th Way teaching, generally referred to here as "The Work". It is a method recommended to and practiced by most members of this forum, as the best way to begin to objectively observe our own programs and mechanical (asleep) behaviour; one that requires participation in a group such as this, where others also involved in the Work can provide feedback and act as a "mirror" in which we can learn more about ourselves and blind spots.

Hope I've not overwhelmed you with all that. I look forward to interacting with you on the forum. :)

Thank-you for your concern and your encouragement to participate. I often find myself a bit overwhelmed, but that's not such a bad thing.

My reading over the years includes much of the work presented on this site, including the Wave series. Gurdjieff' work, however, whenever I dip into it, I find curiously difficult to penetrate as compared to virtually everything else I've read, but I have managed to familiarize myself with numerous of the concepts so that I can follow the conversations people have here on the forum. I also once discovered a film on Youtube which told the story of a group he taught for a while last century.

The subject of the automatic mind is a strong point of interest for me, and it is one which I have been fortunate to be able to explore, albeit, through a non-structured manner via my associations with the people close to me in my life over the last few years. It is clearly not as deliberate or efficient a crucible as that prescribed by Gurdjieff, but it has certainly been instructive and rather painful at points as I have been forced to face aspects of my inner workings. In particular, an ex-girlfriend, (who remains a dear and close friend), has the peculiar ability to see into the people around her. She's one of those types who can meet a person for the first time and know impossible-to-know things about them which invariably turn out to be spot-on. She's the type who will wake up in the night excited because a baby has just been conceived by somebody she knows in town. She was instrumental, and remains so, in helping me to face and deal with many aspects of myself I would have otherwise avoided. She doesn't advertise this about herself, and I appear to be one of the only people she knows in her town to whom she has described these curious qualities about herself. She just seems outwardly like a very normal person. Another friend of mine who is also quite powerful in these areas was visiting for a while and worked with her briefly to teach her some methods for managing the level at which other people's thoughts and emotions would affect her during a period where it had become increasingly difficult to keep it all out.

These are some of the curious figures who I have met over the years, and among them I have been hard pressed to smarten up and deal with my inner stuff, because it was all as plain as day to them.

When I was reading Gurdjieff, I found I could recognize many of the things he was talking about, but the systems and vocabulary he was proposing for doing the Work seemed to fit awkwardly in my mind. (Even the term, "The Work" was new to me.) At first, I had a strong emotional reaction to some of the strictures and demands he proposed for his students, but that was some time ago before I'd really begun to recognize that I was rebelling inside against what his methods implied and not the methods themselves. This was some years ago now, and I've not really revisited his work since then except through the excerpts Laura included in her two books, "The Secret History of The World" and "High Strangeness," which, coupled with the various experiences I've had since first encountering his work, made a lot more sense in that context. --I found it hard to understand certain features of Laura's work without striving to adopt the system of terminology she works from. The effort to do this has been rewarding, and now I feel like I've got more than one language in my mind, though for me it remains a second-language which I can sort of speak, while I think in other terms which have accrued more naturally over my life. Interestingly, they have both served to inform each other, and that has led to an interesting cross-pollination of understanding.

So that is somewhat where I am with regard to the systems you are describing.

Anyway, it is quite late now where I live and I need to get to a bunch of regular work done before I sleep.

Thank-you again for your comments! I appreciate the effort it takes and that one's attention is a valuable resource. :)
 
PepperFritz said:
Cs: When "Earth" becomes a 4th density realm, all the forces, both STS and STO shall be in direct contact with one another... It will be a "level playing field," thus, balanced....
Q: (L) Well, since there is so many of us here, why don't they just move in and take over?
Cs: That is their intention. That has been their intention for quite some time They have been traveling back and forth through time as you know it, to set things up so that they can absorb a maximum amount of negative energy with the transference from third level to fourth level that this planet is going to experience, in the hopes that they can overtake you on the fourth level.... Interestingly enough, though, all of this will fail.
Q: (L) How can you be so sure it will fail?
A: Because we see it. We are able to see all, not just what we want to see. Their failing is that they see only what they want to see.

As I understand it, the C's seem to be telling us that we shouldn't focus on what is or isn't going to happen in 4th density, that our focus needs to be in the here and now, in order to ensure that we are ready for the Wave if and when it arrives. The C's emphasize that KNOWLEDGE is the key, and that it is only through the APPLICATION of knowledge -- here, in third-density -- that we can raise our awareness of objective reality, and our frequency, and thus become "STO candidates".

Focusing on the 3D aspect of it.... What is the mechanism of "accention" to 4D STS? Do they aspire to become as entropic as possible and just naturally get there, like a snowball rolling down hill, gathering mass and speed as they go, crashing through the forest of humanity, gathering tears and agony,'til they finally smash through the veil, like freight train derailing???

Seems they would have to "clean their machine", at least in the way of understanding that there is another level and that this world is a matrix of slavery? (seeing as how they are the ones that make it so) Wouldn't they have to increase their knowledge of other dimensions ect., even if their view is full of wishful thinking, greed and hate?.... like the Elite, that know of the coming extinction?...and the ones that work with the aliens?.....leaders of the MIC that use all technological discoveries for the destruction of humanity? These are highly intelligent people that use knowledge, and the withholding of it, as a weapon.

It was said in one of the early transcripts, when Laura asked, how much she knew in comparison to the Illuminati/Consortium, and the answer was something like 3% but in a short time she would know 35% (numbers made be wrong).

It just seems that understanding the other side of it would be helpful in seeing the big picture and possibly be of some protection.
 
I think it is important to remember that the Cs describe densities as "states of awareness." The difference between the awareness of a dog and a human is obvious, but the human does not disappear from the view of the dog (unless he leaves the room). And, of course, humans have different states of awareness one from the other that may be described in similar terms. That is to say, some humans may have awareness that is comparable to the awareness of others in the same way the awareness of the dog is comparable to a human. (Some people are actually less aware than dogs!)

Think about the different awareness you have from the awareness of those who "believe in the Bible," so to say. Think about the different awareness a person who reads SOTT has from the awareness of someone who watches Bill O'Reilly for their news and commentary.

People who believe that dinosaur bones are placed there by the devil to test Christians live in the same world that people who know that the earth is billions of years old do. They are not absent from each other's sight, but the world of the scientific mind is so much vaster than the world of the "true believer." Wouldn't you agree?

Now, take these comparisons and expand the concept to include the possibility that there are humans with the capacity - possibly genetic - for even broader and deeper awareness who, because of their work on expanding their awareness, have altered their brain chemistry to make it possible for receiving cosmic influences that will bump them up even more.

They won't disappear from the view of others, but they will sure see a heck of a lot more.

Pierre Laplace said:
We must regard the present state of the universe (or of a man/woman) as the effect of its past and the cause of its future.

Consider an intelligence which, at any instant, could have a knowledge of all forces controlling nature together with the momentary conditions of all the entities of which nature consists. If this intelligence were powerful enough to submit all this data to analysis it would be able to embrace in a single formula the movements of the largest bodies in the universe and those of the lightest atoms; for it, nothing would be uncertain; the future and the past would be equally present to its eyes.

Now, imagine the potential abilities of such a being? And they would not have "disappeared" to the eyes of others, but they would certainly be able to manage their lives here in a VERY different way.
 
seekr said:
It was said in one of the early transcripts, when Laura asked, how much she knew in comparison to the Illuminati/Consortium, and the answer was something like 3% but in a short time she would know 35% (numbers made be wrong).

Close enough for horseshoes!

This highlights an important aspect of awareness - it is founded in knowledge. But knowledge not utilized, that is shared or acted on, is "implosive" or STS.

For example, if you witness something being done that is harmful to another and you do nothing, you are as guilty as the person perpetrating the harm. What has your knowledge done but convict you in the eyes of the Universe? It would be better that you did not know it was wrong than to know it and do nothing.

Next level would be: suppose you know and you want to DO something, but you don't know enough to do something strategically and you end up getting yourself in a bad situation? In this case, your knowledge is only partial and, in a sense, is worse than no knowledge at all, at least for you.

But, suppose you know enough to know that harm is being perpetrated, and you also know enough to know how to act effectively, there will be a totally different outcome. And you can see that your reality will be quite different from the reality of the perpetrator of harm, the person who knows and does nothing, and the person who knows only partly.
 
Laura said:
I think it is important to remember that the Cs describe densities as "states of awareness." The difference between the awareness of a dog and a human is obvious, but the human does not disappear from the view of the dog (unless he leaves the room). And, of course, humans have different states of awareness one from the other that may be described in similar terms. That is to say, some humans may have awareness that is comparable to the awareness of others in the same way the awareness of the dog is comparable to a human. (Some people are actually less aware than dogs!)

Wow, that's really fascinating! I was actually thinking about this a couple of months back and I found a neat way of looking at it. --I tried to figure out how a tree might perceive a human being. Both exist in the same realm, but one is of a low density and the other a higher one. I am aware of the tree, but is the tree aware of me?

With no eyes and without the ability of locomotion as a human understands it, a tree probably has a very limited sense of space. When I tried to place myself in the mind of a tree and look outward, (just using logic and my imagination; I'm not capable of the kind of mystical exploring I sometimes hear about), I found myself in a world which was utterly peculiar. What if a human were to come along and brush some of my leaves? How would I experience that? How would it be any different than say, a gust of wind blowing through the forest and brushing those same leaves?

This brought me back to something a friend of mine had said years ago when we were walking together down a city street. The wind was blowing about crazily, and I suddenly asked for some reason I now forget, (but it must have been related to spirits and such), "How much of that is real wind and how much is something else?" He looked at me somewhat startled and then said, "Well. . , do you feel that constant force of air flowing past us?" I did. "Well, that's the wind. All that other stuff, those are other things. There's a lot of activity today." --In a stand of trees along the side of the road, one would blow wildly while the others would remain still. Then that tree would stop blowing quite suddenly and then something else would start. There were countless cross winds and wobbling sign posts and dancing bushes and all that kind of thing. It was pretty chaotic. --Anyway, this wasn't a particularly unusual thing for this friend of mine to say; I'd become familiar with his descriptions of a strange and spectral world. He claimed the ability to see not just energy in the auric sense, but full fledged creatures of all varieties occupying the space around us. To me, trees blowing in odd ways could have logically been explained as the simple result of little eddy currents and vortexes spinning in a chaotic fashion around the tall buildings in the city, but who knows? I was pretty open to taking everything in at that point and not rejecting anything outright; the whole world had only recently exploded from the standard official version of school-taught reality and into something more, and I was in no position to really know which end was up. Today, I tend to think he was being quite honest; that's based on many little bits of comparative observation I was able to collect over a several year period. I never asked for proof, but just patiently collected every scrap of information as it came along.

In any case, that odd conversation came back to mind when I was considered the Tree Problem and how different levels of awareness might all fit together in a single realm. That if a tree locked to one point on the Earth with only the most limited ability to decode the information in the light spectrum. . , if a tree might perceive a human as though it were no different than the wind. . , then perhaps a human would have a similarly vague experience of a creature brushing by which was aware of and able to move through spatial coordinates which we cannot even perceive let alone navigate.

So yeah, I can see how a being of higher density and one at our density wouldn't vanish from each other's worlds at all, but that it all comes down to what mechanisms of perception we have to employ and how far we are able to push them that makes all the difference.
 
This highlights an important aspect of awareness - it is founded in knowledge. But knowledge not utilized, that is shared or acted on, is "implosive" or STS.

For example, if you witness something being done that is harmful to another and you do nothing, you are as guilty as the person perpetrating the harm. What has your knowledge done but convict you in the eyes of the Universe? It would be better that you did not know it was wrong than to know it and do nothing.

Next level would be: suppose you know and you want to DO something, but you don't know enough to do something strategically and you end up getting yourself in a bad situation? In this case, your knowledge is only partial and, in a sense, is worse than no knowledge at all, at least for you.

But, suppose you know enough to know that harm is being perpetrated, and you also know enough to know how to act effectively, there will be a totally different outcome. And you can see that your reality will be quite different from the reality of the perpetrator of harm, the person who knows and does nothing, and the person who knows only partly.

I find this really difficult to understand and I'd be grateful for elaboration or further clarification on this. This is largely due to not understanding what true knowledge is or what responsibility is...which may take me quite some work before I even come to the merest of grips. What you point out above, particularly:
if you witness something being done that is harmful to another and you do nothing, you are as guilty as the person perpetrating the harm
is what I feel is true and many times in my life I have intervened in a kind of spontaneous gut reaction to defend in such a situation. But my recent coming to this site, the whole freewill thing is really starting to make me question...I have seen you too talk about this, in the V thread, asking what to DO when faced with psychopaths in powerful positions...they are, to many eyes, doing much harm, but what to DO about them, if anything? Is their presence part of lessons? It appears difficult to act on knowledge, fight harm and not violate freewill all at once!
Also, if you only have partial knowledge...which is probably the likely scenario for many....what do you do? Particularly since in many cases it's not even certain which parts are the true parts and which are not. Do you just share what you think with those who ask for it? Or step in to defend when asked? (this might be possible with 3D beings but is a slightly more difficult question with 2D beings).
 
Inti said:
I find this really difficult to understand and I'd be grateful for elaboration or further clarification on this. This is largely due to not understanding what true knowledge is or what responsibility is...which may take me quite some work before I even come to the merest of grips. What you point out above, particularly:

One scenario might be such as domestic violence. If one were to hear the neighbors arguing and realized (knowledge) it was it escalating to verbal abuse, or worse, physical abuse and one chose to “not get involved” and turned up the TV to drowned it out. Then you are as guilty as the abuser. But if you simply heard commotion, and it was normal for your neighbors to be loud, one may suppose that they are just having a party or the kids are being rambunctious. Then you didn’t know, so you can’t be guilty.(no knowledge)

2ndLevel: You hear the commotion and realizing (knowledge) he is beating his wife, (that happens to be half his size), you go to intervene. You go into the house to “save the woman”. Not realizing (partial knowledge) they are both drunk you jump in to pull him off of her and stop the beating. While you are now engaged in a physical struggle with him, she also being drunk, cracks you over the head with a rolling pin, because you are attacking her husband. Then they call the police, and you are arrested for home invasion. My mamma always said(not really ;)), “Blood is thicker than water” (partial knowledge). Now your knowledge was just enough to get you in trouble.

3rd Level: You hear the neighbors arguing and realize (knowledge) it is becoming verbally abusive, you go next door and ring the bell. When they answer, you ask to borrow something trivial, such as a lawn rake or a couple of eggs, then you chit chat a minute and thank them graciously for obliging your request, (knowledge) thus defusing the argument by giving it time to cool while they are dealing with you. If it has escalated to violence, you might call the police before you go next door and ring the bell, when they answer, you are prepared to for possible physical confrontation, even if it means running(knowledge) and evaluate the situation to determine whether talking will stall the fight until the police arrive. If no answer, one may choose to enter, depending on your ability to handle yourself and others, and then determine whether to engage physically or verbally. All while being aware of the dynamics of domestic situations (knowledge).



But my recent coming to this site, the whole freewill thing is really starting to make me question...I have seen you too talk about this, in the V thread, asking what to DO when faced with psychopaths in powerful positions...they are, to many eyes, doing much harm, but what to DO about them, if anything? Is their presence part of lessons? It appears difficult to act on knowledge, fight harm and not violate freewill all at once!


Freewill: In above scenario all is basically the same but the woman has been your neighbor for years and has been through a dozen abusive relationships, each one worse than the last. You actually went through all three dramas with her and in doing so you acquired knowledge from your own mistakes of handling it incorrectly in the past. It is now obvious, to you, that she is a shite magnet and always ends up with some abusive loser for a partner. By telling her so or saying that she should end a relationship would be violating free-will. Also threatening the abuser or chasing him away could be a violation too, because those actions would be robbing her of a valuable lesson in life. But by chatting with her about inter-dynamics of healthy and unhealthy relationships and, if she is receptive, then loaning her a book such as “Mask of Sanity” or “Women Who Love Psychopaths”, may help her to learn for her herself, the lesson needed. My mamma always said (not really ;))“When you get a belly full, you’ll get up from the table”.


Also, if you only have partial knowledge...which is probably the likely scenario for many....what do you do? Particularly since in many cases it's not even certain which parts are the true parts and which are not. Do you just share what you think with those who ask for it? Or step in to defend when asked? (this might be possible with 3D beings but is a slightly more difficult question with 2D beings).

As far as 2d beings go, I think one should protect them from malicious acts or rescue them from natural disasters such flood, fire or falling through the ice. But animals eat other animals so interfering with a Dog catching a squirrel or cats eating lizards(no pun intended) I don't think is appropriate in most cases. But dogs eating cats.......well if the cat happens to be my friend...then it helps have a "god" from 3D as his friend :P
 
seekr said:
One scenario might be such as domestic violence. If one were to hear the neighbors arguing and realized (knowledge) it was it escalating to verbal abuse, or worse, physical abuse and one chose to “not get involved” and turned up the TV to drowned it out. Then you are as guilty as the abuser.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that idea. Granted, I do think that if someone were put in that scenario, they should do something. But to equate one's inaction with the abuser is going a bit too far IMO. Their is a lot of programming involved, such as the old don't stick your nose in someone else's affairs. I'm not trying to be an apologist for those programs, just trying to point out they would be factors in the decision, even though they occur on a sub-conscious level mostly. You also don't want to sabotage yourself. What if you do intervene, call the police, and it turns out that your suspicions were off-base? Now all of a sudden instead of being a savior you have neighbors who look down at you and see you as the nosy neighbor.

So what I'm trying to say here is that it is not so black and white as you put it. If you have clear proof that someone is being physically abused then yes, something should be done. But rarely do such things become readily apparent because they happen behind closed doors. I don't think it's so simple as you put it, and I don't think you can assign that much blame because of the many factors involved, which you touched on with the rest of your post.
 
Woodsman said:
By contrast, a population which hangs their heads before the 'demon' hoard thinking, "I've been a bad person forsaken by god, and I deserve this punishment," then how likely will they be to even *try* to seek their own freedom? Such people may well think, (as people stricken with the desire to submit before a heavenly father figure are wont to do), that, "Well, perhaps if I am really, really good, if I keep turning that other cheek, if I suffer enough, if I show that I really am a good Christian, maybe God will forgive me and take me away from all of this. Didn't I hear someone say that the Rapture happens in waves. . ?"

What a perfect prisoner!

Indeed, and that is a good description of any person on the planet at the moment who is caught up in one firm yet wrong belief or another, and I don't just mean religious belief here but ANY kind of false belief about the self or the world in which we live. When our "belief center" is fixated on something, then that is our reality. The Cs say that in 4D what you believe or think becomes your reality, but that is also true of life on 3D, the big difference perhaps being that as 3D denziens almost no one has the capacity to even be aware that this is the case. Those at 4D may at least have gained that awareness and therefore "fit" somewhere where the nature of reality suits that awareness.

But how to gain that awareness? Is it just a matter of saying, "oh, I understand that idea, can I got to 4D now?" It seems not, because that would be subscribing to the new age idea that "YCYOR".

When we are genetically and socially wired to be overloaded with limited and false beliefs, simply saying "oh, I know this now and all I have to do think about what I want in order to create my own reality", doesn't cut it. Basically, saying it doesn't make it so. If a person is full of false beliefs and lies about themselves etc. then the only way to get to the point where he or she can have a chance of truly creating their own reality is to first rid themselves, by way of hard work on the self, of all of those beliefs. And to do that we must investigate ourselves and our dearly held beliefs, get to the root of them, and reprogram them with accurate data.

Or so I think
 
This thread reminded me of my struggle with the catch-22 situation as indicated in the excerpt below (emphasis mine):

Session 941205
A: Every thing that exists is merely a lesson.
Q: (L) Okay, so once we have learned certain lessons, as in
experience of certain things, then our assumptions change?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Okay, is this wave that is coming our direction going to
give us an experience that is going to change our
assumptions?
A: Catch 22: One half is that you have to change your
assumptions in order to experience the wave in a positive
way.


So, in light of the replys, and specifically, the quotes below:

PepperFritz said:
As I understand it, the C's seem to be telling us that we shouldn't focus on what is or isn't going to happen in 4th density, that our focus needs to be in the here and now, in order to ensure that we are ready for the Wave if and when it arrives. The C's emphasize that KNOWLEDGE is the key, and that it is only through the APPLICATION of knowledge -- here, in third-density -- that we can raise our awareness of objective reality, and our frequency, and thus become "STO candidates".

PepperFritz said:
On a personal level, what will or will not happen after the shift to 4th-density is quite irrelevant if you do not work on becoming what the C's call an "STO-candidate", a prime requirement for making the shift. And the work has to be done in the here and now, before the shift, not after. As the C's tell us again and again, it is not WHERE you are when the shift arrives, but WHO you are and WHAT YOU SEE. They also emphasize that KNOWLEDGE PROTECTS, but that knowledge must be APPLIED in order to be effective. In other words, one has to become AWAKE and able to view both oneself and the world we live in OBJECTIVELY, as it is, and not as we wish it to be.

...it appears to me that we may not have any idea that much anything has changed (with our sense of ourselves) unless we have been busy working on ourselves as PepperFritz indicates, because we would have changed few, if any, of our assumptions.

Further reasons why I should get rid of any remaining ideas like "I need the wave...", or "I can't wait for the wave...", etc.

Thanks for this thread, Woodsman. It's been an eye-opener for me.
 
Pinkerton said:
seekr said:
One scenario might be such as domestic violence. If one were to hear the neighbors arguing and realized (knowledge) it was it escalating to verbal abuse, or worse, physical abuse and one chose to “not get involved” and turned up the TV to drowned it out. Then you are as guilty as the abuser.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that idea. Granted, I do think that if someone were put in that scenario, they should do something. But to equate one's inaction with the abuser is going a bit too far IMO.

Sorry if I did not articulate. As I wrote above examples I was playing it through my mind as if in a flat with neighbors simply on the other side of a wall. It could apply in a suburb although it would a little different. I actually live in a rural setting with the nearest neighbor at 200 meters. But let me clarify.

At the point one realizes something is the point at which one "knows". Perhaps I should have said escalated, rather than escalating. But even if one is aware that it is "escalating" and they turn their back, they have made a choice. Also I did not mean guilty of the crime of abuse but guilty in regard to ones place in the universe, for not using the knowledge we have. I think, and I may be wrong, that we have a responsibility to help when we can.

Their is a lot of programming involved, such as the old don't stick your nose in someone else's affairs.

I thought programs were just that... programs, which is different from knowledge. It is up to the user to clean one's machine of corrupted files. They may be a factor or even a reason but not an excuse.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for those programs, just trying to point out they would be factors in the decision, even though they occur on a sub-conscious level mostly. You also don't want to sabotage yourself. What if you do intervene, call the police, and it turns out that your suspicions were off-base? Now all of a sudden instead of being a savior you have neighbors who look down at you and see you as the nosy neighbor.

So what I'm trying to say here is that it is not so black and white as you put it. If you have clear proof that someone is being physically abused then yes, something should be done. But rarely do such things become readily apparent because they happen behind closed doors. I don't think it's so simple as you put it, and I don't think you can assign that much blame because of the many factors involved, which you touched on with the rest of your post.

When I said "realize......verbal....physical abuse", that would come from the actual things being said, such as derogatory curses and name calling, and screaming there is a difference in loud voices and verbal assault. Same with physical abuse, one would realize it by screams for help, smashing glass, sounds of struggle, ect. Those are the things that remove doubt. But if one were to call the police and they came, only to find that the neighbors are simply All Blacks fans watching the World Cup or perhaps saddest/masochist celebrating their anniversary :scared: .....errr

Things are never black and white..... unless we are talking Holstein dairy cows or silent movies. That is why it is the situation or the details of any given circumstance that determines right from wrong. This is discernment which is knowing how to apply the knowledge one has.

If we do not have the knowledge or ability to help then we have no responsibility.
Example: You are on the train and see another passenger acting a little out sorts, slurred speech, of balance ect. He sits down in a seat and leans back against the window and goes to sleep. You thought he was drunk, maybe found it a little amusing, so you get off at your stop and think no more of it. That evening you see his face on the news and learn he died of a stroke. But you had no knowledge of stroke symptoms so you have no responsibility.

Next: Same scenario. But this time you recognize the man is having a stroke because you witnessed an elderly relative have one in your past but you have no medical training so the only help you can offer is to notify the porter.

Next: Say you have proper medical training(for strokes) and recognize the above situation but the train has just come to your stop and you are pressed to catch your connecting train. If you ignore the man's needs you have shirked your responsibility because you have the knowledge and ability to help.

None of the above scenarios present unknown elements of danger to you they are strictly based on whether or not you have the knowledge to help and how you use it.
Laura:
This highlights an important aspect of awareness - it is founded in knowledge. But knowledge not utilized, that is shared or acted on, is "implosive" or STS.

Now for Discernment: ;) Early 1970's... You have proper medical training but you are also a "true SEERER", as the Sufis say, "one that can tell by the footprint a man leaves whether he is a wretched man or praiseworthy". Now as you look upon this "little shrub" having a stroke and you see that it is wretched and is returning from a drunken AWOL... err :/... I mean furlough. Now do you help this wretched being or walk away??? If you help, it may grow to maturity and wreak havoc on humanity in the new millennium. But if you walk away.?.?... only a seerer would know :cool2:

Things are never black and white..... it's always the details of the situation. Discernment is knowing how to apply the the knowledge you have, for if you don't apply it, then you might as well not have it.
 
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