THE ONCE AND FUTURE SKY GOD? – From Göbekli Tepe to The Zodiac – and Beyond…

Michael B-C

FOTCM Member

What appears to be a ‘belt’ flows around the middle of the entire T-pillar. Upon both sides there are devices embossed that we are by now more than familiar with. Belts are once again regarded as distinctively male signifiers by archaeologists.


There are a number of clear images of the Eastern side available (above)...

Seemingly, however, no one appears to be much interested in the opposite Western side and I have yet to find a single picture originating from the site in the public domain. Thankfully, highly accurate reproductions of both central pillars were erected at the Archaeological Museum of Sanliurfa City and the below (apologies for the quality) comes from the best picture of that I can find.


So the Western belt goes:

C C H C H C (in reverse)​

And the eastern belt:

C H C (in reverse)​

Endeavoring to accurately decipher this is a fools game and in some ways possibly anyone’s guess. However, I will tentatively suggest on my part that on the Eastern side the first C and C coupled with the first H are being designated as a distinct unit - and that the two crescents constitute or equals the H (twins) and this may be a way of notating the revolving, circular nature of the crescent horns about the girth of the central god. The completed CHC (in reverse) therefore may denote the complete ‘holy’ relationship.

For some as yet unapparent reason it says effectively the same thing on the eastern side but minus the first C, C and H. Why there is a difference between the two sides I have yet to surmise but it could – could – be connected to the fact that the Fox also only appears on the Eastern side. The fact that the ecliptic travels from east to west could possibly be something to bear in mind because this may have been the path taken by distant travelers…

Whatever the case I tentatively state that the code on the belt further supports and amplifies the motifs at the throat of the god.

Have I missed anything here do you think or do you agree this might be on the right track?

From here on in we will start to head out into even deeper water, starting with point 4. on our list.



I do not know where to begin with deciphering this complex puzzle so I am just going to give some bullet notes as they come out by way of a road map to possible deductions:

  • For once I am with Sweatman in that I see a potential comet identifier. The head and the spread three-pronged tail are highly suggestive of the same. For what it’s worth here is a stella from El-Maakir-Qaryat al-kaafa near Ha’il, Saudi Arabia, and dating from the 4th millennium BCE, which again suggest this motif carries a long held identification with the power of comets.

  • But I also see a clear Fox pelt – with the two legs ending in claws between which the long flattened tail of a fox runs down the middle, all pretty obvious to my eye.
  • We have a total of five H configurations, three on the left as we look at it head on, and two on the right. The left hand three (on the Eastern side) comprise two in the form we have met before but the top H is here turned to the left onto its side. On the right (the Western side) the two others seemingly mirror this sideways configuration.
  • What this could means is best left open. My only comment for now being, could this denote the disruption to the original form caused by a giant comet coming into the plane of the ecliptic and traveling destructively from east to west? Could they even be time markers of some form? All total guesswork however. It likely means something with more nuanced origins.
  • The head seems to still have the bull’s horns cupping a now three-pronged object that is no longer circular – could this be a further cometary image/object coming downwards into the uplifted bull’s horns…?
  • The other thing to consider is the possibility that this whole item - whatever it represents - is actually being worn as a trophy.
  • There is also the possibility that the placement at and over the belly/groin region is connected in some way to the ideas we have seen before on the totems etc of something powerful emerging from the procreative region of the god.
I would be most interested to hear what you all have to say on my sketches above and also on your own guesses or observations on all this. So please do dive in.

The only element I have listed that I will hold to for now is the apparent importance of the Fox. That I am reasonably confident of, especially as a fully formed Fox appears on the Eastern side of this crucial pillar 18. It is therefore high time we considered this.


Having mapped the enclosures A-D, archaeologists have concluded from the number of representations present that each has its own dominant animal as follows:


In their wisdom they go on to suggest this denotes how separate hierarchical hunting groups self-identified and likely prioritised their stalking activities. Moving swiftly along…!!!

No, obviously I do not think this was at all about hunting (unless it was humans who were being hunted, and then from the above not from upon the ground!) Furthermore, volume of any particular animal may not actually denote anything intrinsically essential or determinant to the purpose and ‘theology’ of any given enclosure – such an idea remains to be seen in the context of other information if it ever is to be validated.

Thus, despite the predominance of bird images in enclosure D, I suggest it is the highly visible, and beautifully realised relief of a fox depicted on the eastern flank of pillar 18 that for now speaks to us loudest.


Some observations:
  1. To remind you this relief is not repeated on the other side
  2. The fox is aligned to the north to south axis of the whole pillar.
  3. It might be said to be resting within (or perhaps emerging from?) the crook of the T-pillar god’s elbow.
  4. Its teeth are bared in a typical pose of attack. This sense of alertness is amplified by the pricked up ears and its tail being elongated down the line of the spine.
  5. Whether this is or isn’t meaningful, we should also note that its jaws align with the midpoint of the vertical channel running from the throat to the groin on the front of the T-pillar figure.
  6. By its erect genitalia, it is clearly male.
  7. Its legs might be suggestive that the animal is running at a pace (though it should be said this form is standard throughout the site).
All in all, the feeling of release and imminent attack is what I take away.

But why the fox? After all wolves, lions (and possibly leopards), boars and importantly Auroch bulls are all present within the site and all would appear to be much more fierce and intimidating that the desert fox (if that was an intention?)

Let us also not lose sight of our previous observations concerning the Fox pelt/comet (?) at the groin of the T-pillar.

Here I am going to leap forward some eight thousand years or so and examine a little known Sumerian/Babylonian constellation called The Fox to see if there might be any clues that could provoke an interesting line of further enquiry. Of course this is fraught with some of the same issues I raised in my previous critique of Sweatman, but at least there is some logic in that the two are identical in their symbolic zoology.

THE FOX - in ancient star lore


The Fox on entitlement stones.
Babylonian kudurrus of King Melishipak (1185-1171 BC) and King Marduk-zakir-shumi (854-819 BC). Kudurrus were legal inscriptions for land grants by the King and included the symbols of gods who sanctified the transfer of property.

If asked, we would probably all state that foxes represent cunning and craftiness. Well this identity goes way, way back and was exactly how the Sumerians and Babylonians viewed the creature. He was known as the 'thief of the open country' and in astrological lore his star 'is for breaking into houses'. In Sumerian the Fox-star was written ‘Mul Ka-a’ (and in Akkadian was called šēlebu). The Ka-sign depicted the head of a fox, but rather than being used to merely represent the animal itself it was used to signify the perceived nature of the fox - "deceitful, criminal lying and rebellious'. The final A-sign is used as a grammatical element that transforms the quality of being 'deceitfulrepresented by the Ka-sign into a noun form - the name of the Fox can therefore be understood as ‘the deceitful one’.

In terms of location, according to Mul-Apin the Fox is 'the star that stands on the Wagon's shaft’ (the Wagon being what we know now as Ursa Major or the Great Bear, part of the great set of northern circumpolar constellations surrounding the still centre of the sky). Greek star-lore provides a more specific location when it identifies the Fox as the faint star that stands above the middle star of the Wagon’s shaft.

The regent of the Fox-star
is the unpredictable and fear-inspiring god known as Erra. His name was probably derived from the Akkadian word ‘to dry up’ and he appeared as the god of uncontrolled fire, fever and plague; his principle symbols were the scimitar and a lion-headed staff. At a very early stage he was closely identified with another Akkadian god called Nergal, so much so, that in practise they can be difficult to distinguish. Nergal is generally also described as the god of war, plague and death. Thus, like the ill-omened constellation of the Wolf and Panther, the Fox is commonly used as a name for the malevolent planet Mars. The Ka-sign is also the primary element in another common name for Mars – ‘the False One’.

The deathly nature of the Fox-star is revealed in the Erra Epic, probably composed in the 9th or 8th century BCE, which describes how Erra had taken temporary control of the world and was intent on destroying the city of Babylon. A portent of the forthcoming carnage was revealed in the heavens by the behaviour of his star:

‘The star of Erra is twinkling and carries rays… His mantle of radiance will be activated and all the people will perish.’

The death star theme is also present in astrology omens, which reveal that even kings cannot escape the fate predicted:

‘If the great god, the Fox-star… in this year in all lands the king will die.’

As mentioned earlier, the Fox-star was also known to Greek star-lore. In a remark I believe of monumental significance, the Scholiast on Aratus informs us that one of the stars of the Pleiades left her sisters when the Greeks sacked the city of Troy and retired to a location ‘above the second star of the beam, and that others call this star the Fox’. Proclus makes an equally remarkable statement concerning it: the Fox-star nibbles continuously at the throng of the yoke that holds together heaven and earth.

The symbol of the rope that holds together heaven and earth is found in Mesopotamian literature from the very earliest times. In essence they indicate that the circumpolar region of heaven were attached to a ‘rope’ whose other end was secured to the earth by a ‘Mooring Post’ secured below the horizon. The ‘thong of the yoke’ nibbled by the Fox identifies the rope as the harness-work of the Wagon. When the Fox finally gnaws through the rope, the present World-Age will come to a catastrophic end and the heavens will fall.

Well…. I will be coming onto the complex interconnected series of constellations that made up the ‘Ropes of Heaven’ shortly. Suffice to say for now I think that we are at last heading into deep precession territory here.

Where does this all leave us?

Despite the time gap, we have some extremely tantalising leads. That the Fox was likely way more than just a minor supporting character of the range of symbols on Pillar 18 I hope is becoming clearer.

In particular, its ancient accredited close association with the planet Mars starts to come into sharp relief, especially when we consider in Cometary Encounters Pierre has suggested 10,600 BCE as a Mars/Earth interaction.

Next up I am going to tackle the last of our list of five puzzles, namely the line of 7 birds in relief, moving from right to left (West to East) on the front panel of the base of the pillar. For here we will be picking up on the strange reference to the Pleiades in relation to the Fox-star made by the Scholiast on the work of the poet Aratus. For I have reason to believe that a deep dive into the meaning and implications behind the lore of the Seven Sisters may well lead us into the deepest most profoundly rewarding water of all.
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Wandering Star

The Living Force
Q: (L) So, that would lead to the next part of what I was thinking last night, which is that some - and I'm not saying ALL - really fanatical vegetarians of the slavish authoritarian follower type personality could be, can you say the word for me there, Belibaste? (Belibaste) OP's. (L) Organic portals?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Okay. (Galaxia) So basically they're people with the essence of an animal?

A: Yes.
The figure of the fox could mean the lower energy centers, which, paraphrasing the C's, are so loved by the organic portals.

If this were the case, the situation of the fox in the figure would be important.

Just a thought.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I think that here I am also ahead as in the last comment (sorry I can not with my character when it comes to an idea that seeks to manifest) But reading about the pillar or column that holds the world and then the belt, I could not help thinking about the relationship where perhaps that pillar is precisely the birkeland current in which the solar system is inserted, and that the belt would be for example the gould's belt.

Another thing to emphasize is that if this knowledge is much older than what is believed, we should analyze the possibility that it is a knowledge prior to the fall of humanity to 3rd density and that the view of the stars and constellations was what was perceived from 4th density.

And it seems to me, that this ancient knowledge was of utmost importance being that (and this here begins to form as a purely speculative theory) the birkeland currents and the bessel function are responsible as a template for life on earth. That is to say that this function or pattern goes down to the solar system. After all, the bessel function can even be found in DNA itself.

Applications of Bessel functions​

Bessel's equation arises when finding separable solutions to Laplace's equation and the Helmholtz equation in cylindrical or spherical coordinates. Bessel functions are therefore especially important for many problems of wave propagation and static potentials. In solving problems in cylindrical coordinate systems, one obtains Bessel functions of integer order (α = n); in spherical problems, one obtains half-integer orders (α = n + 1/2). For example:

Bessel functions also appear in other problems, such as signal processing (e.g., see FM synthesis, Kaiser window, or Bessel filter).


Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Very interesting topic. It seems that established experts tend to rush into new and dark areas around the borders of our knowledge trying to tie it in with established theories that are questionable in themselves. So any new discoveries are quickly befuddled with nonsense. Ain't it almost always the case. I only skimmed this but hope to revisit it often.

Just offhand, perhaps this topic is resonate with the section in ISOTM by Ouspensky, specifically chapters 5-7 where the 7 densities are related to the 7 notes of the musical scale and where the earth functions as a sort of transistor or tube element that transfers energies or frequencies between higher densities and lower densities.


Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Very interesting topic. It seems that established experts tend to rush into new and dark areas around the borders of our knowledge trying to tie it in with established theories that are questionable in themselves. So any new discoveries are quickly befuddled with nonsense. Ain't it almost always the case. I only skimmed this but hope to revisit it often.

Just offhand, perhaps this topic is resonate with the section in ISOTM by Ouspensky, specifically chapters 5-7 where the 7 densities are related to the 7 notes of the musical scale and where the earth functions as a sort of transistor or tube element that transfers energies or frequencies between higher densities and lower densities.
With humanity being the emitter/base in such a design :)


FOTCM Member
Have been following along as you pull on threads and offer up depicted juxtapositions, leading to many places that are difficult to understand. Alas, though, right up front the comment in bold must sink in as a reminder to Sweatman's leaning (I've not read his book, however have seen him in numerous interviews in discussion):

There are over 60 T-pillars emerging from three distinct building phases so far unearthed at Göbekli Tepe (thought to represent a mere 5% of the total potential finds at the site) and 150 sculptures of which only 86 depict animals (more on the human carvings later), many of which repeatedly appear in different relationships and in the company of other animals – as well as amongst more ambiguous geometric patterns. Yet only a handful of these are selected by Sweatman and then only in the specific circumstances which fit his theory.

If it is true that it is a mere 5%, and perhaps less taking in the whole adjacent landscape scene, one might look to Egypt's first excavation (or somewhere else) of the Sphinx, and partially at that even, and then say they have the key to the whole site without knowing what the site is and what is underneath the soils by the spade. It is a little presumptuous, osit. However, looking afield one sees in what you have shown a steady similar stream of the old, and where to link it all to in time.

I would like to understand the terrain a little more, the mud and gravels and hydrology - ancient or otherwise. Some say it was all filled in artificially, but don't know, the gravels and mud don't look that way. Also see the site is 700 or so meters above sea level, so keeping that in mind and what the sea level could have been, and an event to deluge.

Here are some afield representations T-Pillars etc.:


Fwiw, here is the UNESCO paper that is 131 pages with 28 depictions.

I'll keep following along @Michael B-C, as it is an interesting look you are having of the site and cross referencing depictions and meaning elsewhere - overall, interesting stuff.

Michael B-C

FOTCM Member
I think that here I am also ahead as in the last comment (sorry I can not with my character when it comes to an idea that seeks to manifest) But reading about the pillar or column that holds the world and then the belt, I could not help thinking about the relationship where perhaps that pillar is precisely the birkeland current in which the solar system is inserted, and that the belt would be for example the gould's belt.

Another thing to emphasize is that if this knowledge is much older than what is believed, we should analyze the possibility that it is a knowledge prior to the fall of humanity to 3rd density and that the view of the stars and constellations was what was perceived from 4th density.

And it seems to me, that this ancient knowledge was of utmost importance being that (and this here begins to form as a purely speculative theory) the birkeland currents and the bessel function are responsible as a template for life on earth. That is to say that this function or pattern goes down to the solar system. After all, the bessel function can even be found in DNA itself.

Ahhh! the Bessel Function… yes indeed! Well, we will come on to that issue soon enough Bluegazer. We will indeed!

So on to the final symbolic cluster on Pillar 18, namely point 5:

The line of 7 birds in relief, moving from right to left (West to East) on the front panel of the base of the pillar.


All the clearest images of this region of Pillar 18 were taken at night-time and then only showing five of the seven birds prior to the final two being revealed when the last of the sediment about the base was finally and painstakingly scrapped away. Therefore, for now I am depending on the full-scale picture of the pillar I posted on page 1 of this thread to show that, yes they are indeed seven in number.


We will come onto the whole subject of ‘birds’, their symbolic identification, and possible meanings within the context of this enclosure in good time. For now, here is a straightforward summary of the substantial role birds play in universal mythology to get us under way:

Many myths have linked birds to the arrival of life or death. With their power of flight, these winged creatures were seen as carriers or symbols of the human soul, or as the soul itself, flying heavenward after a person died. A bird may represent both the soul of the dead and a deity at the same time.

Whether such thoughts took wing at GT remains open to question. As to what kind of bird, even I - a sometime ornithologist - would struggle to hazard more than a wild guess at, and even then not with any confidence as to an actual species. The profile does strangely suggest them to be flightless – with some online proposing their similarity to the infamous dodo (which of course lived far, far away from this location... and after all famously couldn't fly)!


The issue of what species of bird is most likely a red herring. So in passing, I simply note:
  1. That the middle bird of the seven falls directly in line with the tail of the possible ‘comet’ fox behind it… perhaps highlighting the six remaining…? This may prove meaningful.
  2. That the birds on the front of the plinth ‘underpins’ the whole structure of the T-pillar. From a front on perspective, all the meaning that rests above it could be said to stand upon these seven travelers.
For now, however, I think we can all just agree these are definitely denoting ‘birds’ and there are seven of them


View attachment 2.1.b. The Pleiades (1885) by Elihu Vedder.jpg


As we all know, the number seven has a long history of being esteemed as the most divine of all numbers. There are two constellations specifically associated with this number, Ursa Major, The Great Bear, and perhaps most famously, The Pleiades, known widely today as The Seven Sisters, a nom de plume given for the seven brightest stars visible to the naked eye (there are actually over 400) with them long being remembered as the daughters of the Titan Atlas, who we met previously in his guise as the column god holding up ‘heaven’.

The Pleiades were intrinsically and intimately connected to Taurus the bull and are in a sense seen now as an element of the whole constellation. I will come on to this matter in a further post.

The Greeks in particular – but other ancient cultures too – designated them as being birds.

Some of the poets, among them Athenaeus,Hesiod, Pindar, and Simonides, likening the stars to Rock-pigeons flying from the Hunter Orion, wrote the word Πελειάδες, which, although perhaps done partly for metrical reasons, again shows the intimate connection in early legend of this group with a flock of birds. When these had left the earth they were turned into the Pleiad stars. Aeschylus….thought these Peleiades ἄπτεροι, "wingless." Other versions made them the Seven Doves that carried ambrosia to the infant Zeus, one of the flock being crushed when passing between the Symplegades, although the god filled up the number again. This story probably originated in that of the dove which helped Argo through…​
Star Names - Their Lore and Meaning (R. H. Allen)

The issue of there being seven but also only six seems to have led to a continual efforts to reconcile the matter, with some agreeing there are seven but with only six being easily visible to the naked eye – for as Aratus wrote:

not a mighty space​
Holds all, and they themselves are dim to see​

Here, I bring back to mind the words of the Scholiast on Aratus when he informs us that one of the stars of the Pleiades left her sisters when the Greeks sacked the city of Troy and retired to a location ‘above the second star of the beam, and that others call this star the Fox’.

And from Wikipedia:

One of the most memorable myths involving the Pleiades is the story of how these sisters literally became stars, their catasterism. According to some versions of the tale, all seven sisters committed suicide because they were so saddened by either the fate of their father, Atlas, or the loss of their siblings, the Hyades. In turn Zeus, the ruler of the Greek gods, immortalized the sisters by placing them in the sky. There these seven stars formed the star cluster known thereafter as the Pleiades… The loss of one of the sisters, Merope, in some myths may reflect an astronomical event wherein one of the stars in the Pleiades star cluster disappeared from view by the naked eye.​

There is a mystery here of some great importance being distantly remembered…

The pivotal role played by the Pleiades in not only star lore but also in the religious and calendrical practices of many ancient cultures is substantively documented:

…Pleiades is one of the many names of this star cluster. The word is supposed to be derived from Greek "pleio", meaning "to sail". The rising of the Pleiades was the sign of the opening of the Mediterranean Sea to sailors. Their "navigation" on the night sky of Temperate Zone opened and closed the seasons of good and bad weather (Theophrastos On Signs, 6-7). During the 5th c. B.C., in the geographical coordinates of Athens, the heliacal rising (vMR) of Pleiades was taking place between the 7th and 19th of May and their cosmical setting (vMS) c. on the 6th of November.​
Moreover, according to renown scholars, early Greek farmers used to place little or no reliance on zodiacal constellations, depending highly on the much brighter stars of the Pleiades, the Hyades, Orion, Sirius and Arcturus (Reiche 1989). The movement of the Pleiades was symmetrically opposite to that of the sun. Consequently, time-keeping has always been associated with this cluster. In the ancient world, there are many calendar systems, both agricultural and sacred, that utilize the positions of the Pleiades. The sacred geometry of megalithic monuments and ancient places deserves special mention for their correlation to them (Blomberg et al. 2003).​
Temples in Greece and Ancient Egypt had been built in alignment with the Pleiades. Parthenon and the Great Pyramid at Giza are some famous examples (Penrose 1892 and 1893; Lockyer 1893 and 1894). The Greek calendar system was regulated by the position of them during May and November and reflected to the cross-quarter holidays, each half-way between an equinox and a solstice…​
The Pleiadian cycle also involves the planet Venus. The Pleiades is in many languages associated with bird-names. Some scholars take the bird on the bull's back in ancient coins of Eretria, Dicaea, and Thurii for the associated constellation of the Pleiades (Stechert, in: Allen 1899).​
The Greek Myth Of Pleiades In The Archaeology Of Natural Disasters. Decoding, Dating And Environmental Interpretation (Amanda Laoupi, PHD)​

Back to Allen for a moment:

The Pleiades seem to be among the first stars mentioned in astronomical literature, appearing in Chinese annals of 2357 B.C., Alcyone, the lucida, then being near the vernal equinox, although now 24° north of the celestial equator; and in the Hindu lunar zodiac as the 1st nakshatra, Krittikā,Karteek, or Kartiguey, the General of the Celestial Armies, probably long before 1730 B.C., when precession carried the equinoctial point into Aries. Al Bīrūnī, referring to this early position of the equinox in the Pleiades, which he found noticed "in some books of Hermes," wrote:​
And their beginning the astronomical year gave rise to the title "the Great Year of the Pleiades" for the cycle of precession of about 25,900 years.
The Hindus pictured these stars as a Flame typical of Agni, the god of fire and regent of the asterism, and it may have been in allusion to this figuring that the western Hindus held in the Pleiad month Kartik (October-November) their great star-festival Dībalī, the Feast of Lamps, …​
As a Persian lunar station they were Perv, Perven, Pervis, Parvig, or Parviz, although a popular title was Peren, and a poetical one, Parur. In the Rubáʽís, or Rubáʽiyát, of the poet-astronomer Omar Khayyám, the tent-maker of Naishápúr in 1123, "who stitched the tents of science," they were Parwin, the Parven of that country to‑day; and, similarly, with the Khorasmians and Sogdians, Parvi and Parur; — all these from Peru, the Begetters, as beginning all things, probably with reference to their beginning the year.​
In China they were worshiped by girls and young women as the Seven Sisters of Industry…
Star Names - Their Lore and Meaning (R. H. Allen)

To really dig down into the matter we need to look to the Babylonians, for though it is the Greeks who most believe had the richest lore on the myths regarding the Pleiades, it was in fact the various cultures of Mesopotamia who left behind the most detailed and tantalising clues of all.

Here I am indebted to Gavin White, whose marvelous source book Babylonian Star-lore has been my most constant companion over the many years. For whilst his prosaic view on meanings is so often completely awry, his learning is more than solid and his bold synthesis of Sumerian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Egyptian, Greek and Arabic astronomical sources provides an invaluable tool for intercultural comparison.


In Babylonia The Pleiades were known as ‘The Star Cluster’. Here I note that thanks to Laura and the C’s, we here repeatedly refer to the centrality of ‘The Comet Cluster’.

The Pleiades are probably the most famous star-group in the entire history of star-lore. Before the zodiac was invented and exported around the ancient world, astrologers from Arabia, Persia, India and China divided the stars along the ecliptic into 28 sections called the lunar mansions. Each mansion roughly corresponded to the daily movement of the moon, and although each of the different versions used its awn local variants, the stars of the Pleiades were invariably regarded as the lead-star of the series. The strong association between these stars and the moon that is so apparent in later star-lore, may well harken back to these distant times.

The Star Cluster is also the lead-star in the Babylonian equivalent to the lunar mansions that are called the ‘Stars on the Path of the Moon’. The antiquity of the series can be gauged by the fact that the Star Cluster would have been the lead star of heaven, that is rising at the start of month 1, during the course of the 3rd millennium. Since this time, precession has caused all the stars to rise ever later in the calendar, so that by the time Mul-Apin was composed, the Star Cluster had its ideal rising date on the 1st day of the 2nd month.

On entitlement stones and cylinder seals the Star Cluster is repeatedly represented by seven stars, an image that is sometimes simplified to seven circles.
The Sumerian name of the Star Cluster is written Mul Mul.
These signs are read in Akkadian as the ‘Bristle’, zappu - a ‘tuft of hair, bristle or comb’. The name is derived from the tuft of hair depicted on the Bull of Heaven’s shoulder.

The Mul-sign depicts three stars; it signifies the class of ‘celestial objects’ that includes stars, constellations, meteors and planets. It appears before the names of all celestial bodies. Because the word ‘god’ is written with a single eight pointed star the written name of the Star Cluster can easily be interpreted as a group of gods convening to give good or bad council to the land:

‘If the Star Cluster rises at its appointed time: the great gods will assemble and give good council to the land, good winds will blow’.

It is important to grasp that the sign of a god was the symbol for a star. The sacred Mul-sign preceded every Babylonian asterism but only in the case of The Star Cluster was it not only repeated but also was itself the only signature of the constellation without any further additional qualifying or quantifying sign meaning. In that sense the seven ‘stars’ of The Star Cluster are its most sacred meaning in entire – its meaning is the seven stars, which means ‘The Seven Gods’ - or even 'The Seven Primeval Gods in One Cluster'. Yet the paradox remains that only six make up its written name - as we see that MUL-MUL = six stars/gods.

The depiction of the Pleiades on entitlement stones was consistent – whether with interior out-raying or as plain circles, yet still always a group of six ‘stars’ with the seventh set on its own as if leading.

If we return to the image we used previously regarding the fox, we can see this clearly, (including in this example the intriguing suggestion that the Scorpion is about to clasp the leading star, an impression made even clearer by the original... it makes me wonder about the reference above to one of the flock being crushed when passing between the Symplegades,).


Also of note, the giant overarching snake, the dagger, the mained lion and two likely eagles (or perhaps ravens)…

What is little known is that despite the glorious aspect of the swirling, dancing goddesses and the associations with peace and plenty, the myths of the Pleiades have an even more substantial dark side to their name:

… there is other striking evidence. Especially ancient Greek mythology…offers significant clues about the implication of the water element in the Pleiades nucleus. This water element reflects various information about… some extra events of deluge related to the Pleiades (either as source of the event, or as an astronomical correlation) that gave them a chthonian and malignant character… There are, indeed, too many traditions connecting the Pleiades, with some kind of catastrophe to be overlooked. When people talk about seasonality and Pleiades, they often refer to food, hunger and destruction also.
In fact, there is the Osiris-Saturn legend in Egypt. The great and beloved god Osiris is drowned by the devil god, Seth, who then cuts his body to pieces and scatters its fragments. These fragments were the Pleiades worshipped on the day of Saturn's death (de Grazia 1981). Saturn (Khima) is connected with the Pleiades.
The Greek Myth Of Pleiades In The Archaeology Of Natural Disasters. Decoding, Dating And Environmental Interpretation (Amanda Laoupi, PHD)​

Here we will take a short break before taking an aside to rush forwards many thousands of years to the translation of the bible and the confusions caused down the centuries by certain references in the Book of Job.
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Michael B-C

FOTCM Member
A BIBLICAL PROBLEM – lost in translation

The Book of Job, as it is translated into English, bears a reference to the Pleiades, the meaning of which has long mystified biblical scholars.

As found in the King James version, Job, 38:31, the reference reads:

"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose
the bands of Orion?”​

This seems clear enough on the surface until you start to compare it with other versions. For example the Douay–Rheims Bible, which is said to be a direct translation of the Latin Vulgate, has the following for the same lines:

"Shalt thou be able to join together the shining stars of​
the Pleiades, or canst thou stop the turning about of​

The words "join together" and "bind" could be said to be synonymous whilst the loss of the ‘sweet influences’ between the King James and Douay–Rheims could be put down to the more poetic nature of the King James version as a whole, but "loose the bands" and "stop the turning"… well, they read as if fundamentally different actions. Then there is the small matter of one speaking about ‘the bands of Orion’ and the other about a completely different stellar object called ‘Arcturus’.

I would hope that Orion would be familiar to most of us here. It is arguably the most readily identifiable constellation in the entire night sky – the ‘hunter’ as it is also still known to many. But Arcturus?

A singular red giant and the most significant star in the constellation Boötes (referred to today as the ‘herdsman’ or ‘plough man’), Arcturus is one of the brightest stars that can be seen anywhere from Earth. A quick glance at the northern sky tells us these two – one a full constellation, the other a singular star - are not exactly near neighbours:


So there seems to be some serious confusion at work here.

If we go back to the original Hebrew, we find these two were named Khima and Khesil (variously spelled). Both the English versions quoted above declare that Khima references the Pleiades, but Khesil is translated as Orion in one, and Arcturus in the other. So which is the correct translation or indeed are either of them if one is so debatable, and even more than this – can we be in anyway certain now that Khima has been correctly translated as Pleiades?

If that was not enough of a quandary, in the same book of Job, Khima and Khesil are mentioned again but this time along with another object in the heavens called Aish (Ayish or Ash). The King James version, 9:9, translates Aish, Khesil, and Khima as:

Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades.

The Douay–Rheims Bible, however has:

Arcturus, Orion, and Hyades with this time no mention of the Pleiades!

Things get worse because Khima and Khesil are also mentioned in the Book of Amos. Here the King James version sticks religiously to its translation of Pleiades and Orion, whereas the Douay–Rheims, forsaking both the Pleiades and the Hyades, has Khima as Arcturus while reverting back to Orion for Khesil….!!!

Dizzy yet? Well you should be, as clearly the various translators quite obviously had no inkling as to what was what and were most likely just hazarding a guess – but then forgetting what was guessed the last time!

To gain some sanity, let us go straight to the source and see if we can clear this matter up via the Vulgate and the Septuagint. But Heavens above…! It gets even worse! For in the Greek version of the Septuagint, Khesil is translated once as Hesperus (the Evening Star) and on another occasion as Orion! As for the Latin Vulgate, Khima is again translated as Pleiades in one instance, but as Hyades in another, and as Arcturus in a third (the identifications in the latter are indeed therefore similar to those in the Douay–Rheims, which indeed derived from it).

We have to begin to ask the question had the meaning of the original names been completely lost to time? Well, not according to Immanuel Velikovsky. In Worlds in Collision, p.208, note 4, he stated:

'The material for the identification of Khima as Saturn and Khesil as Mars will be presented in a subsequent part of this work.”​

Unfortunately, the promised sequel never materialised – but that did not stop Velikovsky drafting a great deal, and in some released papers of his we find he was very confident as to his material sources for such an identification. Here I will quote quite extensively from the man himself – because there are some very interesting additional nuggets if you dig down into it – all taken from an edited if still brief paper originally printed in the tiny circulation Kronos, a Journal of Interdisciplinary Synthesis:

In the Tractate Brakhot of the Babylonian Talmud it is said that the Deluge was caused by two stars that fell from Khima toward the Earth. The statement reads:​
"When the Holy One decided to bring the Deluge on the Earth, He took two stars from Khima and [hurling them against the Earth] brought the Deluge on the Earth.”
Tractate Brakhot, Fol. 59.
The sentence is said in the name of one Rabbi Samuel. This Rabbi Samuel was regarded as a great authority in the field of astronomy, actually as the Talmudic authority in this science.​
The Tractate Brakhot so explicitly points to the cause of the Deluge that, before classifying the narrative in Genesis in its entirety as folkloristic imagery (which in part it most certainly is), we ought to inquire: Which celestial body is Khima?​
In the rabbinical literature Khima is referred to as ‘Mazal Khima’. Mazal is "planet". Then which planet is Khima?​
The interpreters were especially intrigued by the description in Job 38:31. The Lord proves to Job his impotence by asking him whether he can bind the bonds of Khima or loosen the reins of Kesil. The word in the second clause is from a root always meaning “to draw’…”​
Which star is in bonds? And which star is drawn by reins, as if by horses?​
The identities of Khima and Kesil, Ash and Mazzaroth, were of lesser importance when it amounted to finding their meaning for their own sake in the poetical sentences of Amos and Job. But such identification, especially of Khima, grows in importance if the quoted sentence from the Tractate Brakhot may contribute to an understanding of the etiology of the Deluge as the ancients knew it, or thought to know it.​
In Worlds in Collision I have already explained that Mazzaroth signifies the Morning (Evening) Star: the Vulgate has Lucifer for Mazzaroth, and the Septuagint reads:​
Canst thou bring Mazzaroth in his season and guide the Evening Star by his long hair?​
I have shown why the Morning-Evening Star was described as having hair or coma and why Venus did not appear in its seasons.​
Kesil means in Hebrew "fool". From the Biblical texts it is not apparent why one of the planets received this adverse name, or why, if such was the case, the word "fool" was derived from the name of the planet.​
In the Iliad, Ares-Mars is called "fool". Pallas-Athena said to him:​
"Fool, not even yet hast thou learned how much mightier than thou I avow me to be, that thou matchest they strength with mine.”​
These words explain also why Mars was called “fool”: it clashed repeatedly with the planet-comet Venus, much more massive and stronger than itself. To the peoples of the world this prolonged combat must have appeared as a very valiant action of Mars, not resting, but coming up again and again to attack stupendous Venus, or it must have appeared as a foolish action of going again and again against the stronger planet. Homer described the celestial battles as actions of foolishness on the part of Mars.​
Thus Kesil, or "fool" among the planets named in the Old Testament is most probably Mars.
"If not for the heat of Kesil the world would not fare well, because it counterbalances the cooling effect of Khima.” This sentence is found, too, in the Tractate Brakhot of the Babylonian Talmud.​
In Pliny we find a sentence which reads:​
"The star Mars has a fiery glow; owing to its excessive heat and Saturn's frost, Jupiter being situated between them combines the influence of each and renders it healthy.”​
Pliny, Natural History II.34.​
The heating effect ascribed in the Talmud to Kesil is ascribed by Pliny to Mars, and the cooling effect of Khima to Saturn. With this sentence of Pliny we are strengthened in our identification of Kesil as the planet Mars; it corroborates the conclusion just made with the help of the Illiad. But what is even more important, Pliny helps identify "planet Khima": it is Saturn.​
Cicero wrote similarly with Pliny:​
"While the furthest [of the five planets), that of Saturn, has a cooling influence, and the middle planet, that of Mars, has a heating influence, the planet Jupiter, which is situated between these two, has an illuminating and moderating influence.”​
Cicero, De Natura Deorum II. Xivi. 112-113​
Other statements to the same effect are found in Vitruvius, a contemporary of Cicero, and in the neo-Platonists Porphyry, Plotinus (both of the third century) and Proclus (who flourished in the fifth century). In these sentences, as in those of Pliny and of the Talmud, Mars is regarded as being a fiery planet, Saturn as being a cold planet.​
The passage in the book of Job (38:31) can now be read:​
"Canst thou bind the bonds of Saturn or loosen the reins of Mars?"
… The reins of Kesil I discussed in Worlds in Collision, Section "The Steeds of Mars.” The two small moons of Mars, Phobos and Deimos, were known to Homer and are mentioned by Vergil. They were regarded by the peoples of antiquity as steeds yoked to Mars’ chariot; Job was asked whether he could loosen their reigns.​
The passage in the Talmud that makes the planet Khima responsible for the Deluge means: "Two stars erupted from the planet Saturn and caused the Deluge."

Obviously, bringing Velikovsky to the fray immediately raises the conundrum of misleading identification between comets and planets, and the way in which as time passed and the comet gods slowly abated, (especially after the (final?) seven close passes of Venus between 3,200-2,600 BCE that Pierre suggests in Cometary Encounters), then the whole mess of original actual comets, and then planets acting as comets, and then comets acting as planets, etc. all ended up in the confusion of early to mid-antiquity when all that censorship, astralising and astrology finally put to bed by late antiquity any hope of understanding as to how the identity of comet gods became transferred to planets – and also how the comet Venus became a planet and how the planet Mars acted like a comet, so many millennia before (see Laura’s Comets and the Horns of Moses for a thorough going rundown on all this).

However, we have gone on a long side-track and seem to have lost sight of the Pleiades. Or have we? Let us now try to get back on track by taking up once more all these references to the star cluster and water and deluges. Here from alternative scholar Dwardu Cardona:

According to Jewish folktale, what they called the third Deluge happened when the male waters from the sky met the female waters which issued forth from the ground (Frazer 1918, I, 143-4). The holes in the sky by which the upper waters escaped were made by God when he removed stars out of the constellation of the Pleiades (Ginzberg 1909, I, 162). In several Sanskrit texts… a natural event is mentioned, referring to a nova or brightening of a star in the cluster of Pleiades (Eggeling 1963; Velankar 1963; Griffith internet edition. Mahabharata internet edition). There is also a story about a strange fire associated with this cluster. For example, there are several different versions of the same celestial event in Mahabharata, describing the inversion of dual phenomena (the summer became winter and winter became summer) as a war broken between gods and demons. Fiery celestial body fallen on Earth, earthquakes, rise of sea-level, draught of rivers, lakes and wells, destruction from heaven, severe famine are some of the implications related to the Pleiades (a demon has born in the Pleiades).
The final word of admiration is reserved for a Mesoamerican legend. This vision of doom is the matrix of the Aztec legend of the Five Suns. The universe was not permanent or everlasting, but coming to an end, like all living things. They pictured time as a cycle of births, destruction and rebirths. According to the Aztecs mythology and ritual, this cycle couldn't continue for ever; there would only be five ages or "Suns" each of them having its own name, sign and ruling divinity.​
The Aztec Legend of the Five Suns has survived in pictographs painted or carved on stone, in texts of ancient Mexico and scattered oral traditions kept by the distant descendants of the Aztecs. The primary source for Aztec mythology is the Codex Chimalpopoca. The first sun is known as Four Water, the second as Four Jaguar, the third as Four Rain, the forth as Four Wind and the final fifth as four Movement. This world, our world, will be destroyed by earthquakes. Five was for the Aztecs a sacred number, based on the five directions. These directions were the four cardinal points plus the centre. The centre was understood to be the star cluster of the Pleiades.

I will begin take up this issue of so much of importance ‘centering’ around the constellation of the Pleiades in the next post. The plot further thickens as we begin to realise yet again that perhaps what we now know as this system wasn’t actually what the ancients carried forward by way of memory.
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Michael B-C

FOTCM Member

If Velikovsky is correct, the identification of Khima as ‘Saturn/Chronos’ does not necessarily negate the role of the Pleiades in the great cataclysm of yesteryear. Still the confusion seems to have been widespread and catching. For example respected Jewish scholar L. Ginsberg in his The Legends of the Jews (1961, Vol. I. p.232) states another well-known tale that:

"Afterward, to put a stop to the flood, God had to transfer two stars from the constellation of the Bear to the constellation of the Pleiades. That is why the Bear runs after the Pleiades. She wants her two children back…”​

One might begin to think that all these contradictory statements in biblical, Jewish and other sources was deliberate – that the point was to hide in plain sight a ‘code’ that only those initiated in the deeper knowledge would be equipped to spy the trail of miscues, and instead of moving on with a bemused shake of the head, see it as a sign to dig deep enough to uncover the truth! Reminds me of the same process of contradiction and ‘Stalinising’ of star lore that the Greek enforcers pursued (according to the C’s).

With regard to the legend related by Ginsberg, there may be a more prosaic answer to this particular conundrum however. For the Great Bear (Ursa Major) follows the Pleiades in their rising above the eastern horizon and so the logic of transferring this idea to the she-bear makes a certain amount of sense (remember it is the only other system widely regarded to be associated with the seven stars). So we have two stars on the one hand seemingly ‘emerging’ from Saturn/Chronos to cause the great deluge and now we have the issue of two stars needing to be taken from the Great bear and handed over to the Pleiades to make their number back up again. This seemingly conflicting set of ideas therefore reads like an attempt at explaining what the loss of the meaning of Khima (Saturn/Chronos) had previously left unexplained. Yet if so, why were the Pleiades chosen as a substitute for Chronos? Of course, as we have previously seen, Khima has at one time or another been translated as Hyades and even Arcturus, besides Pleiades but only in the Douay and Vulgate versions of the Old Testament. The King James version sticks to its translation of Khima as Pleiades throughout. So does the Babylonian Talmud.

Therefore, is it possible that the Pleiades themselves were in some way connected with ‘Chronos’?

In the same vein, hold on as well to the thought of Arcturus being in some way involved in the greater puzzle because we will indeed be coming back to this in a while.

That the Pleiades were remembered as being responsible for a terrible, widespread cataclysm has already previously been noted. Just to further ram home this point, the following comes from The Stars in Myth and Fact by scholar O.E.Scott:

"The idea is generally accepted that this group [the Pleiades] must have been associated in the distant past with some great event, widespread and cataclysmic… Evidently, this star group, in very early times, impressed a wide section of mankind with some great event of a catastrophic nature, in which was a considerable loss of life. Memorial festivals in honor of the dead... throughout a large portion of the ancient world… seem to have been always associated with the Pleiades.”

Scott goes on to explains this destruction as being one by fire:

"[The Pleiades] were associated with the traditions of a widespread destruction by fire from heaven, probably remembrance of a devastating rain of meteors.”​

Thus we have fire on the one hand and in the Jewish sources a deluge of water, both connected to the Pleiades.

This is where things start to get really, really interesting…

The Feast of the Dead (our Halloween followed next day by All Saints) is observed throughout the world at the beginning of the month of November, a dark commemoration that long predates its takeover first by Christianity and then by secular society. Laura has written extensively about how this terrible trauma embedded so deeply that it has stayed with universal humanity from time immemorial (for example see the following dating from 2010 - Witches, Comets and Planetary Cataclysms)

What is not often noted, however, is that all around the world this feast is somehow connected with the Pleiades. For example among the Brahmins of Trivalore, the month of November was called Kartica, the "month of the Pleiades.”

To the Navajo, the Pleiades was known as Dilyehe and was one of the groupings placed in the sky by their Black God, or Fire God. Legend says that when Black God entered the hogan of creation, he stamped his foot four times and Dilyehe eventually jumped to his left temple. So Navajo ceremonial masks that depict Black God have the figure of the Pleiades on the left temple.​
Another reckoning point is culmination - which is when a celestial object reaches its highest point in the sky. When the Pleiades culminated at midnight, that set the time for the Celtic feast of Samain ("End of Summer"), one of the most important calendar festivals of the their year. The world of the gods was believed to be made visible to mankind, and the gods played tricks on their worshipers. It was a mystical time of danger and fear. It was also the dreaded witches' Sabbath and precursor of the Christian feast of All Hallows Eve (Halloween). In the Middle Ages, the Pleiades culminated at midnight on November 1st, but due to precession, it now culminates about November 21st. In Meso-America the time counts of two ancient Aztec and Mayan calendars coincided every 52 years at the midnight culmination of the Pleiades. They believed the world would end at one of these time count coincidences, one of which occurred a few years ago.
A Starry Calendar Part I - Jack Kramer

Here note that Saturn/Chronos is ubiquitously known as the ‘black’ god (hence for example the great black ‘meteorite’ stone at the very heart of the Muslim faith in Mecca). Looking back to one of my earlier posts, the Urfa Man found close by to Göbekli Tepe has deeply set jet black eyes.

Ancient calendar systems have been decoded in multiple cultures which show how they were all regulated by the heliacal rising of the Pleiades. Yet the heliacal rising of the Pleiades does not occur in November. As we previously noted the case was similar in Babylonia where the celebration of the New Year in spring was marked by the rising of the Star Cluster in month one. Even today, the heliacal rising of the stars of Matariki (Pleiades), combined with the sighting of the Moon, marks the beginning of the New Year for the Māori in New Zealand. So we have multiple different traditions – one aspect focussed on the culmination in the autumn and one on the helical rising in the early part of the year. One celebrating the beginning of time, one the terrifying end to it.

And now to the strangest of things... according to uniformitarian retrograde calculations, the Pleiades were last seen rising heliacally in a November all of twelve thousand years ago. Bang in line with the time period of our terrible end to the Younger Dryas and also within a reasonable proximity to the possible ‘commemoration’(?) marked by our T-pillar 18 at Göbekli Tepe with those seven birds waddling by….

I’ll let that all sink in for a while.
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Michael B-C

FOTCM Member

We are beginning to paint a picture whereby the ‘sweet influences’ of the Pleiades isn’t starting to look quite so sugary and those dancing daughters not quite so seductive.

Well to the Babylonian’s they weren’t one bit friendly. Despite its sacred role as the holy marker of the spring New Year, they too held to a profound paradox. As we saw previously, notwithstanding the fact that they denoted what was called the ‘Star Cluster’ with the magnificent rendering of the twinkling sign for seven star gods, the regent system they employed tells a quite different story.

A star’s regent was usually a mythical god like figure or a 'planet' (i.e. comet) which when used denoted that the star system (constellation) was being referred to even when it wasn’t actually physically present at that time in the sky. Gavin White gives the most comprehensive overview of the now over looked regents of the Pleiades that I have yet found – namely the seven Sebetti and their terrifyingly familiar attributes:

The regents of the Star Cluster are a group of battle-inciting deities called the Seven Gods (in Akkadian the Sebetti). Their destructive natures are emphasised by placing them in the entourage of ‘Erra’, the god of war, plague and death.
Many omens concerning the Star Cluster draw on the symbolism of Erra, predicting a range of disasters from plague and pestilence, to rebellion and death:​
‘If the Star Cluster is apart and has no light: Erra will arise but will not fell the people’.
All the planets, with the exception of Jupiter, portend death when they stand in the vicinity of the Star Cluster:​
‘If Mars, Mercury, Venus or Saturn reach the Star Cluster: there will be deaths’.
The Star Cluster is one of the most frequently used by-names for the violent and malevolent planet Mars. The attribution is primarily derived from the Sebetti being attendant upon the god Erra-Nergal, who is very closely associated with the planet Mars in astrology. Continuing in this vein the Seven Gods are said to be for the devouring of cattle - this is a typically Martian characteristic that crops up time and again in omen involving Mars. But when the malevolent Mars is in the vicinity of a malevolent star like the Star Cluster the stakes are raised even higher and now predict the destruction of the human population:​
If Mars approaches the Star Cluster: dispersal of the population, fall of the land’.
In artwork the Seven Gods are depicted wearing long robes and tall cylindrical hats topped with a feathered border. They are always armed with a range of weapons, invariably an axe and dagger, and also a bow. A Neo-Assyrian inscription reveals their essential nature:​
‘the Seven Gods, the warlike gods, who carry bow and arrow, whose rising means war’.


An original Assyrian freeze (above left) showing three of the seven Sebetti. (To the right) A line drawing restoration of a single figure by White with the bow, erased on the original, restored. This raises the question why the carving was later interfered with so skillfully to remove all visual knowledge/suggestion that theses gods of the sky distinctively carried bows.


The Sebetti are actually closer to demons than they are to gods. They are treated as the children of heaven and earth, who are credited with parenting a veritable host of demonic beings.​


Their birth is briefly described in the Epic of Erra and lšum:

‘Their birth was strange and full of terrible portents... When Anu king of the gods [note here that Anu is identical to Chronos], impregnated Earth she bore him the Seven Gods and he named them Sebetti’.

After Anu had decreed their destinies, he gave them to ‘Erra, the warrior of the gods’ and declared ‘let them march at your side’.

Their destinies reveal a series of non-human forms. Anu decreed that the second demon should ‘blaze like fire’, that the third should ‘don the face of a lion’, so that anyone seeing him would crumble in fear, and that the seventh, whom he commanded to ‘destroy the living’, be filled with dragon’s venom!

A clearer idea of the forms that the seven demonic Sebetti assume is given in a myth where they are held responsible for causing lunar eclipses. The first is the South wind, the second a great dragon, then a raging leopard, a furious serpent and a ferocious lion, the sixth is a surging flood wave and the seventh an evil storm-Wind. They are likened to storm clouds and swirling dust-clouds that blot out the daylight; they encircle the moon, darkening his disk, thereby causing an eclipse.

The history of the Star Cluster can potentially be traced back to the Sumerian period where a very similar group of destructive demons, identified as stars, appear in the Sumerian poems that form the background to the Epic of Gilgamesh. They are given to Gilgamesh by the sun god to guide him eastwards over the mountains:

‘Seven Warriors the sons of one mother were given to Gilgamesh by the heroic sun god. The first, their eldest, has lion’s paws and eagle’s talons; the second is an open-mouthed viper; the third is a dragon-serpent hurling ... the fourth spits fire ... the fifth is a serpent whose tongue ... the uplands; the sixth is a torrent in spate that batters the mountains, the seventh blasts like lightning that no- one can deflect. In the heavens they shine, on earth they know the paths, in the heavens they are stars blazing high.

All these references to sun gods are age old confusions reinforced by conformity bias and all without exception in the earliest sources in reality refer to the first and primal ‘sun’ namely Chronus/Anu etc. The inextricably interlinked dark relationship between this phenomena and the seven terrible ‘stars’ and the constellation of The Pleiades becomes ever clearer. The fall of the first was interconnected with the emergence of the second. The glorious, seemingly never-ending Golden age of the great god of all gods shattered by the spawning of the seven who came after, bringing a blood drenched sickle in their hands/wings.


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I would hope that Orion would be familiar to most of us here. It is arguably the most readily identifiable constellation in the entire night sky – the ‘hunter’ as it is also still known to many. But Arcturus?

Interesting direction this is heading in, and noticed poking around last night that this fellow, Robert Schoch, looks (and don't know yet) to be scratching at these questions - or some of them, and he brings up Orion quite a bit, including the C, H, reversed C.

He said:

In the word symbolism found at Göbekli Tepe and other ancient sites, particularly the C, H, reversed C and its derivatives, we have two concepts that are combined and presented: The Sun and God. This is a theme that permeates the ancient world: The Sun was worshipped as a deity. On a journey to India, Katie and I learned first-hand that among the Hindu tenets is the belief that the Sun is the one and ultimate God, and the physical manifestation of the supreme God. Is there a distinct consciousness possessed by the Sun, the planets, the stars, and even perhaps the constellations (possibly a collective consciousness)? To the Greeks, Romans, and many other ancient peoples, the celestial bodies were recognized as gods (Jupiter = Zeus, Apollo = Sun, and so on). What then is the C, H, reversed C symbolism trying to convey? Why is the T-shaped Pillar 18 at Göbekli Tepe wearing this message? Is it directing our gaze to Orion, with its prominent belt (see the SIDA article on this website for more on this particular branch of my research). Pillar 18 may be intended as a recreation of Orion, the headless hunter accompanied by the dog (Sirius, the dog star in the constellation Canis Major, the greater dog); on Pillar 18 the dog is tucked under the right arm. On Pillar 18 the arms, which are spread out in the actual constellation, are brought down to the sides and the hands frame the navel region, reminiscent of the moai on Easter Island. The belt of Pillar 18 corresponds to the belt stars of Orion, and the fox-pelt loincloth can be seen as equivalent to the Orion Nebula which hangs from the belt in the constellation. And Orion is surrounded by the zodiac, a series of constellations, many of which represent animal forms, just as Pillar 18 is surrounded by a ring of smaller pillars with varied carvings at Göbekli Tepe. This iconography suggests yet another message that we are meant to discern. Do we, or does our star, have an umbilical connection to Orion? The Orion Nebula is a birthplace of stars. The writing and symbolism at Göbekli Tepe is most certainly speaking to us, though its message may be unclear at this time.

He talked about the H, and its other 90 degree depictions at Göbekli Tepe. Was looking at Orion in terms of observation, and to the Greeks it is an H and to the aboriginals in Australia it was on its side for most of the year (other than September). This is the birray birray, wherein it also says that "The star Rigel is the fire of the birray birray, and the Sword of Orion is their fire poker.

Here is the full myth quote under Pleiades:

The Pleiades are an open star cluster of seven objects which can be seen in the low sky to the north during summer. They seem to be a very special object in the sky around the world, as many cultures, including the ancient Greeks, knew them as young women, and in particular, Seven Sisters. In fact, so many cultures have a similar story that some cultural astronomers think the original story may have come out of Africa with early man. Many Aboriginal language groups have their own stories of the Pleiades, and the Kamilaroi and their neighbours are no exception, as they have a number of variations of their stories. The most common one is that the Pleiades, or miyay miyay (which means “several girls”) were young women who lived on Earth, and were exceptionally beautiful. Orion (the constellation), which is known as the birray birray (which means “several boys”, not initiated) were chasing them, and they prayed for protection from Baiame, who lifted them into the 19 sky. One of the girls is not as beautiful as the rest, and hides, which is why we only see six stars. The birray birray, for chasing the girls, were put into Orion as the Belt of Orion, where they still try and chase them. An old man was placed in the sky between Orion and the Pleiades (the star Aldebaran) to keep the birray birray from the Pleiades, and the upside down “V” of stars next to him (the horns of Taurus the bull) are his gunya (hut). The star Rigel is the fire of the birray birray, and the Sword of Orion is their fire poker.

Of Orion (H):

The constellation Orion, as we know from the story of the Pleiades, was the home of the birray birray, the young men chasing the Pleiades. It also has a connection to Baiame. Most Kamilaroi culture men will say that you can’t see Baiame in the night sky, but during the bora ceremony, in the early part of the year, Orion will, as the night progresses, go down in the west. The Greeks called Orion the Hunter, and saw him as a figure with two legs and two arms, a belt, and a sword. Of course, here in Australia, the Greek figure is upside down, so that figure is not usually seen the way the Greeks did. However, as Orion is dipping down to the western horizon, this can be seen as a figure of Baiame, upside down, with his arms reaching down to the Earth, so it is said that “Baiame is coming to the ground”. This is the reason for the Baiame ground sculpture used during the bora ceremony. This is only representing Baiame, as everyone says that Orion is not Baiame.

Other stories include a more recent one about the Saucepan, where we see the Belt and Sword of Orion making up a Saucepan. It is said that when it gets full, it will turn and tip. Since the rainy season in country New South Wales is usually February, the Saucepan (which filled up earlier) is tipping (as it appears late at night), and dropping the rain. A Ngemba/Wailwun (connected to Ngemba) story says that Orion was the brolga put into the sky by Baiame after fighting with the emu (when the Sun was created). Orion could be 23 a brolga, an emu, or a turkey, depending on what country you came from, and that these birds were put in the sky to show that we shouldn’t fight and should help each other. The emu was put with its head in the Coalsack, which became the Emu in the Sky.

It is back to animal symbols, so don't know, however your discussion on hidden language (things being obscured) is very interesting.

Schoch goes on in the one internal link from the main one above:

What were the builders observing? This is a difficult question to answer, but we can hypothesize. On the morning of the Vernal Equinox of circa 10,000 BCE, before the Sun rose due east at Göbekli Tepe, the Pleiades, Taurus, and the top of Orion were in view in the direction indicated by the central stones of Enclosure D, with Orion’s belt not far above the horizon (as seen from the best vantage points in the area) as dawn broke.17 A similar scenario played out for the orientation of the central stones of Enclosure C in circa 9500 BCE and for Enclosure B in circa 9000 BCE. Enclosure A is oriented toward the Pleiades, Taurus, and Orion on the morning of the Vernal Equinox circa 8500 BCE, but due to precessional changes, the entire belt of Orion no longer rose above the horizon before dawn broke. By about 8150 BCE the belt of Orion remained below the horizon at dawn on the morning of the Vernal Equinox. These dates fit well the timeframe established for Göbekli Tepe on the basis of radiocarbon dating.
Based on the evidence slowly being pieced together, it appears there was a major plasma event, or events, in antiquity. In my book Forgotten Civilization22 I have made the case that a major plasma event, circa 9700 BCE, brought about the end of the last ice age. Based on the radiocarbon dating, some of the structures at Göbekli Tepe are contemporaneous with the end of the last ice age. Enclosure D in particular was initially erected prior to 9700 BCE, but suffered damage (indicated, for instance, by a toppled and subsequently re-erected pillar) during the cataclysmic activity that brought the ice age to an end. At this time the earliest crude secondary walls were erected between the pillars. Later stone pillars and enclosures were erected during the early period of turmoil just after the ice age ended, and ultimately the entire site of Göbekli Tepe was artificially buried (perhaps to protect it?) under a mountain of dirt and debris.

With the damage to, and ultimate burial and abandonment of, Göbekli Tepe, there can be no doubt that the solar-induced dark age – SIDA – had begun. In terms of material artifacts, primarily large megalithic structures from pre-SIDA times remained. Pockets of humanity survived in isolated spots where the natural geography and resources were relatively hospitable. A good example is the Cappodocia region of modern Turkey where the soft volcanic bedrock was conducive to the excavation of extensive underground shelters and indeed entire cities, providing protection from the occasional solar outbursts that most likely continued for centuries or millennia after the close of the last ice age, somewhat analogous to the aftershocks following a large earthquake.

It would be 5000 to 6000 years before civilization would reemerge.

From September 24, 1995 Session:

Q: (RC) I thought that humans originated in Lyra and then a war broke out there and they ended up in Orion.

A: Lyra is not inhabited. There have been homes in all places, but some were/are transitory, and some are not. Pay attention to Orion! This is your ancestral home, and your eventual destination. Here is the absolutely accurately accurate profile of Orion to follow: This is the most heavily populated region of your Milky Way galaxy! This is a region that extends across 3rd and 4th density space for a distance as vast as the distance between your locator and it. There are 3,444 inhabited "worlds" in this region. Some are planets as you know them. Some are artificially constructed planetoids. Some are floating space barges. And some are "satellites." There are primary homes, travelling stations and incubator laboratories all in 2nd, 3rd and 4th densities. There are overseer zones in 5th and 6th densities. Approximately one half is STO and one half is STS. Together, along with many other colonies, located elsewhere, this is called, in translation, Orion Federation. Orions created grays in 5 varieties, as cyber-genetic beings, and installed them on Zeta Reticuli 1, 2, 3, and 4, as well as on 2 planets orbiting Barnard's Star. The Reptilians also inhabit 6 planets in the Orion region in 4th density, and are owned by the Orion STS as slaves, and, in some cases, pets!!! The name "Orion" is the actual native name, and was brought to earth directly. Study the legend of the "god" of Orion for parallels.

Further in the same Session related to Pleiades:

A: They are not engineered on earth, but in Orion lab as all others. They were "Planted" in the Middle East.

Q: (L) What genetic type were the Atlanteans?

A: They were the same as the "Native Americans."

Q: (L) What were the roots of the Native American type? Was there a basic type that was here on the planet and was then taken to an Orion lab and genetically modified and then planted?

A: No!!! Have you been paying attention?!?!

Q: (L) What did I miss? Why do some Native Americans believe they come from the Pleiades?

A: Where are the Pleiades?

Q: (L)Well, near Orion. (RC) Oh, okay. So, they are considering the Pleiades part of Orion. What about Sirius?

A: Sirius is confused as a locator because it appears in similar location in the sky in the northern hemisphere. The American Indians were confused in the translation because of similar seeming location due to vantage point.

Q: (L) Okay. (RC) Well, but Sirius is clearly Sirius! It's the brightest star in the sky... it's in all the legends! (L) Well, it could be that it is not just misinterpretation, but deliberate disinformation? (RC) How could it be translated wrong? This is not clear! The star charts are very specific!

A: How have YOU translated YOUR legends wrong?

Q: (F) I think the point is that it is clear that we, in our present culture, are easily able to get things very wrong, even from the more recent times; so it is not a great consideration to think that the more ancient legends can also be distorted, embellished, and misrepresented.

A: Review what we said at the beginning of this session.

Q: (L) Did the Dogon come from Sirius?

A: All humanoid types originated in Orion region, there are and have been and will continue to be literally millions of colonies.

Q: (RC) Well, Sirius has a green sky, not a blue sky like we do. (L) The star?! (RC) Well, no, the planets... Yes, Sirius has a green atmosphere... a light green. (F) Well, I prefer blue! (L) If a lot of the information that is being propagated these days is confusion or disinformation, what is the purpose of all this?

A: You answered yourself: Confusion and disinformation.

Q: (L) I have a theory that the truth, in any large degree, will not be known until just prior to some sort of transition...

A: You expect "truth" then?

Scott goes on to explains this destruction as being one by fire:
"[The Pleiades] were associated with the traditions of a widespread destruction by fire from heaven, probably remembrance of a devastating rain of meteors.”

Which reminded me again of the "Sword of Orion is their fire poker" statement.
One might begin to think that all these contradictory statements in biblical, Jewish and other sources was deliberate – that the point was to hide in plain sight a ‘code’ that only those initiated in the deeper knowledge would be equipped to spy the trail of, and instead of moving on with a bemused shake of the head, see it as a sign to dig deep enough to uncover the truth! Reminds me of the same process of contradiction and ‘Stalinising’ of star lore that the Greek enforcers pursued (according to the C’s).

If Orion was the central hub according to the C's, and civilizations of the past had a direct connection (seen in archology and some texts to the point that it can be hypothesized), the "deliberate" nature to cut us off from our connected created birthright seems to have been at play for thousands of years. Organizations like UNESCO controlling digs and narratives, do their part, as do old text translations.

One thing I'm still not sure of (well a whole lot of things) is the assertion that Göbekli Tepe was artificially filled in to protect it. There may be evidence of the spade for this, however was thinking more in line with what Ignatius Donnelly described in Ragnarok - THE FALL OF THE CLAY AND GRAVEL.


FOTCM Member
Probably not much more than an interesting snippet and not sure if it adds anything of value in the attempt to interpret some of the symbology but the letter T is sometimes used in accounting as a symbol or shorthand for the double entry book keeping system - debits listed on one side under the horizontal and credits on the other. When debits equal credits, or cancel each other out the result is zero, or god - particularly to an accountant or book keeper who has spent some time trying to balance the books.

I guess similar ideas could be used to symbolise the balancing of karmic debt.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Wow Michael!

I find your research very fascinating and very interesting. Thank you very much for sharing it!!!

I also want to thank you for refering to the Sweetmans thread where I found Laura’s chapter!! I missed that one completely so before I continued reading your further posts, I took a detour to read Laura’s chapter. I planned also to read Sweetman‘s book but after your review I don’t see the point.

I don’t have that extensive knowledge about this topic, so I can only comment from what I observed reading your posts so far.

About the Pillar 18:

If I understood correctly, „the god“ you are referring is like the one creative force of the universe?

When you posted the Venus figurines, the crescent and orb symbolism in fact to me look quite similar; maybe the crescent and orb could be a more ancient simbol, an icon, of the universal creation force/god.

In the Venus figurines - it’s head is like the orb and the curve of its belly is the cresent.

Just an idea…

Also, in the similar line as Voyager said, when reading your analysis I remembered the C‘s saying about the Orion being our ancestral home. There is also a symbol of Ankh which represents our „birth“ planet and is also a female symbol, a mother planet.

Q: (L) You said the other night that the Nephalim came from some area around the constellation Scorpio, is that correct?

A: Originally seeded there but you were too.

Q: (L) We were originally seeded somewhere else? Where? Orion? What is the name of that planet?

A: D'Ankhiar. Ankh is ancient symbolism of this planet. Is female symbol. Stands for mother planet.

Q: (L) Is this other planet our original home?

A: Yes.

Maybe orb and crescent and Venus figurines and Ankh are somehow connected and a knowledge was long lost….? And during the time, this Ankh became more like a cross symbol while at first was simply an orb with a crescent? Maybe that was original meaning behing what we now know as „the great bull in heaven“ as you’ve put it?

Again, just thinking out loud… 😅

About Pleiades, weren’t they also a part of a Taurus (like a necklace) and then Taurus was split into Aeries and Whale or something? So that could be that „lost constellation“?

About the twins; first when I saw the image on the pillar, I also saw like two figures holding hands.

About CCHCHC - to me it doesn’t look like that the first C is C at all. The 1st one is more round than the rest any may represent something different?

Maybe the picture is not clear but they put so much effort on symmetry so why would they „mess up“ the 1st C?

In any case, you started a great discussion and can’t wait to read more from you!!!
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