The First Initiation by Madame de Salzmann

JonnyRadar

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Bud said:
I even went through a short phase where I had utterly no concern at all whether anyone likes me or not. I simply see no way for it to matter except from the perspective of the need for external consideration and to respect the freewill of others to believe what they wish. Maybe this is a sign that I can refrain from creating another version of 'me' and simply deal with what is there.

Right there with ya Bud! I think it really can't matter whether or not anyone likes you. External consideration takes place because that is what "ought to be done." Any other action motivated by the desire to be liked or accepted is folly. You've gotta be yourself, but in order to be yourself you've first gotta discover who YOU are, discover your essence. Our true essences are so buried under layers of programming and lies, this process can be a killer... To be able to recognize the two natures, as Salzmann says, is key. Not to be overcome with guilt over the nature of the false personality is also key, osit. If you're feeling sick, I think you're probably feeling the first initiation. This has been a reality for me recently as well. It can send you to the floor.

But hey, now we have something to move forward on right? The foundation can be the knowledge of the true machine-ness of the self. My father used to say this in hockey games, and perhaps this wasn't his meaning behind saying it, but I take it as it applies to the Work - "play hard 'till the end of the game!"
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

JonnyRadar said:
Right there with ya Bud! I think it really can't matter whether or not anyone likes you. External consideration takes place because that is what "ought to be done." Any other action motivated by the desire to be liked or accepted is folly. You've gotta be yourself, but in order to be yourself you've first gotta discover who YOU are, discover your essence. Our true essences are so buried under layers of programming and lies, this process can be a killer... To be able to recognize the two natures, as Salzmann says, is key. Not to be overcome with guilt over the nature of the false personality is also key, osit. If you're feeling sick, I think you're probably feeling the first initiation. This has been a reality for me recently as well. It can send you to the floor.

You're so right. It seems the bottom line is to be able to understand the consequences of 'desire'. When it's fulfilled and when it's not. And to be able to understand it without going off on yourself, the dog, or someone or something else.


JonnyRadar said:
But hey, now we have something to move forward on right? The foundation can be the knowledge of the true machine-ness of the self. My father used to say this in hockey games, and perhaps this wasn't his meaning behind saying it, but I take it as it applies to the Work - "play hard 'till the end of the game!"


Yep. I heard a saying that came to mean more to me than I wanted it to. A teacher once said something to the effect: "I had the desire to teach; therefore, I stopped teaching until I could become mature enough to do it properly and fulfil my duty to my students." The understanding and control of the automatic needs for emotional stimulus and associations is the lesson there, I'm thinking.
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Bud said:
I am glad that I have been doing most of the study and experimentation with the basic psychology of the predator's mind alone, because if I had started this in a group, I would have been thrown out long ago.
I thought the same way for a long time with respect to this forum. Recently after an acquaintance with Dabrowski's theory of multilevelness, my ideas changed. I realized that with that thought, I was unconsciously putting others at a similar level as myself. But this is not true - there are others who are at a higher level than myself and they would most likely have gone to that level after working through similar issues. So there really was no danger of the Real me being thrown out but of the predator in me getting bashed up pretty bad.

[quote author=Bud]

The mountain of lies is truly enormous. The only way I could find to handle it is to simply accept that from the perspective of our ordinary understanding of self-concepts, the reality is that there is simply nothing there (in those terms). The way to do the Work is not to pile ideas of this and that on top of the primitive patterns of reaction already there, but to become intimately aquainted with one's own predator's mind (G's false personality, or the sufi's "Commanding Self"), itself, and then to rewire new, more mature behavior.
[/quote]
This indeed is quite incredible. I don't know if I have gone to the very bottom of the pit yet but what I saw did literally put me down on the floor as JonnyRadar mentioned. But I am also starting to feel the truth of the statement that once it is seen the first time and its sight can be withstood (even while writhing and crying on the ground), it becomes progressively easier to see it when it surfaces again within myself.
Also, I am incredulous at how it manages to twist esoteric and Work related concepts to suit its own needs. Like you wrote, once we see it, then we can start the struggle to choose something higher and that seems to be the beginning of the Work on the self.

Btw, good to see you back and posting, Bud.
 

Mountain Crown

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

[quote author=JonnyRadar]Not to be overcome with guilt over the nature of the false personality is also key, osit.[/quote]

It can claim betrayal of self when questioned and this can be very painful.

The labor pangs of the birth of will; don't want to abort the mission now.
 

Laura

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Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

It's fascinating, terrifying, and wonderful all at the same time, to see people writing the words that indicate they are really "getting it." It's a terrible thing to go through, I won't kid you - nor will those few others who have gone through it - but there IS light at the end of the tunnel and you emerge into a whole different world.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Laura said:
It's fascinating, terrifying, and wonderful all at the same time, to see people writing the words that indicate they are really "getting it." It's a terrible thing to go through, I won't kid you - nor will those few others who have gone through it - but there IS light at the end of the tunnel and you emerge into a whole different world.

Thank you so much for those words. I can tell that you know how much the right words at the right time can make such a difference.
 

Nienna

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Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

It is really something to come face to face with yourself. To see all the lies that you held so close laid bare. There really is no words to describe it, or all the words in the world are not enough.

I'm glad to see that you have come out on the other side of it. To know the horror that is you is something very hard to come to terms with. It really does bring you to your knees. And, yet, there is light on the other side. A hidden joy just waiting to unfold. Every once in a while it will bubble up and bring light into the world for a moment. And it grows, slowly, but surely, as long as you keep working toward your aim. As long as you don't slide back down into the abyss. As long as you stay true to your real self.
 

mamadrama

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Yes, the intellectual realization of what we are, though difficult enough, is nothing compared to the emotional realization. The initiation - to move through one reality to another, to conquer it and transmute it - is to be faced with these dark realizations about ourselves and to learn to integrate them into the light, osit. It's as if you uncover all the horrible aspects of yourself, parts so hideous that you never even dreamed were there and you have to hold them out in the light to become aware of them. I think one reason this process feels so devastating is because it allows us to feel the emotional make-up of the darkness and that make-up is fear that vibrates out of lack of information. Once we can give it the the information or the light of the truth, by seeing and feeling the darkness within ourselves, we are cleansing, merging, and preparing for a huge leap in consciousness, osis.


November 29 session said:
A: The wave is coming, you are teaching people to surf it instead of being dragged under and out to stormy seas.

Q: (L) You once said that the wave was something like "hyperkinetic sensate". And I've often wondered if that means that it's something that massively amplifies whatever is inside an individual? And if that were the case and they were full of a lot of unpleasant, painful, miserable feelings, repressed and suppressed thoughts and so forth, and something that was hyperkinetic sensate amplified all of that, what would it do to that individual? I mean, can you imagine any of us in our worst state of feeling yucky and then having that amplified a bazillion times? If it was bad stuff inside you, you would implode.

A: Soul smashing!

Q: (L) So it is really important for people to go through this process of cleansing to prepare themselves for that.

A: Yes, then they will "rise up with wings as eagles"!

Q: (L) So even people who - or maybe particularly people who - engage in a great deal of what Lobaczewski called "selection and substitution", there is some part of their rational mind that knows what the truth is, but because it's not acceptable to their peer group, or their social milieu, or their background and upbringing to accept that truth, they repressed and suppress it and explain things to themselves in other ways. But they still know the truth. What would it be like if you have all of this suppressed, twisted truth locked up inside you that you never allowed yourself to look at and acknowledge?
 

Iron

Dagobah Resident
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Black Swan said:
Yes, the intellectual realization of what we are, though difficult enough, is nothing compared to the emotional realization. The initiation - to move through one reality to another, to conquer it and transmute it - is to be faced with these dark realizations about ourselves and to learn to integrate them into the light, osit. It's as if you uncover all the horrible aspects of yourself, parts so hideous that you never even dreamed were there and you have to hold them out in the light to become aware of them. I think one reason this process feels so devastating is because it allows us to feel the emotional make-up of the darkness and that make-up is fear that vibrates out of lack of information. Once we can give it the the information or the light of the truth, by seeing and feeling the darkness within ourselves, we are cleansing, merging, and preparing for a huge leap in consciousness, osis.

So true. Now and then is recent times I hear whispered to my mind the more bizarre things , but now I know its coming from somewhere outside me. From where I cant specify yet.
Also the evaluation of people has changed, my whole attitude towards this forum is changed. The realization that the time is slipping away is hitting me also. But now to change this thread into me, as more than ever I realize I am a neophite in this soul growth bussiness!
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

A story was told of a turtle and a scorpion.

One day a turtle (or tortoise) gave a scorpion a ride across a river. Just before the ride was over, the scorpion stung the tortoise. The tortoise was hurt and cried out: "It is my nature to be helpful. Why did you sting me?" The scorpion answered: "It is my nature to sting. Why do you seek to transform your nature into virtue and my nature into villany?"

Depending on one's development, several lessons may come to mind from that, but here's a good one:

Do what is in you to do. Just don't pretend to yourself that you are any other way than you are. Brutal self-honesty and a willingness to experience your own nature, whatever the outcome, is a helpful attitude if one of your goals is find out if you're in denial. A surrender to the unknown may be necessary in order to open up the possibilities. But then I'm just a Fool. This may, or may not, apply to you (the reader).
 

JonnyRadar

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Bud said:
A surrender to the unknown may be necessary in order to open up the possibilities.

Imo, never truer words were spoken.
 

Laura

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Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Nienna Eluch said:
I'm glad to see that you have come out on the other side of it.

Actually, I don't think they have come out on the other side yet. It can take awhile... and when you do come out in that new reality, you are changed forever. And you thank the Universe for it, as horrendous as it was.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Laura said:
Nienna Eluch said:
I'm glad to see that you have come out on the other side of it.

Actually, I don't think they have come out on the other side yet. It can take awhile... and when you do come out in that new reality, you are changed forever. And you thank the Universe for it, as horrendous as it was.

That is correct in my case. It is only very recently that I find myself in this place. I'm assuming that if anyone else finds themselves there, one of the first things they will realize is that there must be a decision whether or not they even want to do anything about it and that's about as low as it gets, osit.
Of all the things I don't see right now, I also don't see any reason to let myself get to this point and not continue.
 

Laura

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Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Bud said:
It is only very recently that I find myself in this place. I'm assuming that if anyone else finds themselves there, one of the first things they will realize is that there must be a decision whether or not they even want to do anything about it and that's about as low as it gets, osit.
Of all the things I don't see right now, I also don't see any reason to let myself get to this point and not continue.

That's kind of what it comes to, in the end. And that seems to be about the most un-weighted choice there can be. Just the weight of a feather...
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Re: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Laura said:
Bud said:
It is only very recently that I find myself in this place. I'm assuming that if anyone else finds themselves there, one of the first things they will realize is that there must be a decision whether or not they even want to do anything about it and that's about as low as it gets, osit.
Of all the things I don't see right now, I also don't see any reason to let myself get to this point and not continue.

That's kind of what it comes to, in the end. And that seems to be about the most un-weighted choice there can be. Just the weight of a feather...


I went back and re-read your experience. There are some similarities and differences with my experience and I'm mostly relating to the way you expressed will and determination from that point on.

I did reach a point where I could see that everything in 3D, including our familiar notions of "Love" is upside down - that it's all just an illusion. Emotionally, I bottomed out at the level of covert hostility. I can see that that was where I had become 'fixed' and that the fixation was somewhat independent of my day to day emotional ups and downs. I somehow knew that I was going to have to go into it at some point and be with it and give it expression. I had to decide that if that was the way it was, then so be it. I was tired of lies and pretense, illusions and addictions to same. I was tired of not being able to make a real difference anywhere.

If I was really a sociopath, then that was what I am and I was going to have to accept the fact of it. If I was a full blown narcissist, I was going to have to accept that as well. If I was something worse, well, that's a scary visual place. In short, I'm talking about a certain attitude toward, and acceptance of, whatever was really there. I had to surrender to the possibility that I would never participate here again or do anything really good and lasting for the rest of my life if that was really what was in me. If that was truly my nature.

There was no strictly defined moment of "Ok, let's do this", but with all the pressure I felt and after having spent all this time reading and studying and not really feeling much different or more effective, I just caved in, so to speak. At a particular point in time, I had also decided to start talking things out so I could hear my own voice. I allowed myself to feel the various states of tension in my body and I just went with everything I was feeling and thinking.

I imagined a so-called friend walking up to me and smiling a greeting. I would look at him and say What do you want? Go away. I don't like you. You think you know me. You don't even know yourself. You think you like me. You interact with me just to feel your own emotions. Go away! But don't go far. You can come back if you want. I don't like you, but I want you to think I do because it makes you like me. Blah, blah, blah and on an on as long as I could express what I was feeling no matter what it sounded like.

The thing is, at the time, I was just going with what was there, giving expression to what I really thought was me, except it turned out that it wasn't really me. As I continued talking to this imaginary person, at first I meant every word that I said. After awhile, I had to make an effort to sound convincing. A little while later, I couldn't think of anything new to add so, as I continued with my attitude, something wonderful began to happen!

My mood started lifting. It wasn't long before I was noticing how absurd it all was. I started laughing and the laughter was such a relief my eyes began to burn as they flooded with tears of relief. I realized what was happening. This junk had dislodged. It was on the move, up and out. The more of it I could express, the more I 'repented' or gave it all up to the Universe.

When it seemed that I got all this stuff out that I could, I noticed something odd and I wanted to let a couple of days to pass before commenting on it, just in case things changed. There seems to be some 'space' between me, the observer, and everything else. Not a lot when I'm concentrating or active, but it is there and seems permanent for now. There is a part of me in back of everything observing, some sense of 'space' and then everything in the sensual matter field of 3D. That seems the best way to describe it. The 'amount' of 'space' I sense between the observer me and what I'm doing is related to intensity of focus. When I'm not doing anything in particular, it seems like I'm sort of two places at one time, in the visual or 'knowing' sense.

It's different from what I was expecting it to be, I suppose. I had thought that if I ever developed a permanent self-observer, it would be like I was detached, outside my body yet still seeing through my eyes, controlling my body like a puppet while knowing what I was doing. This, however, is more like I'm observing from somewhere else simultaneously with my usual perception. Somewhere where I can't be touched, but also seeing and acting from the body's point of view. I can see that the Real me is not the me that is in 3D. The false personality is what has been operating and it's mostly conditioning and programming for certain ways of living, being and working. Some of this conditioning and programming is necessary, but some of it needs to go at some point, while some of it simply needs to be under volitional control.

I haven't lost this sense of separateness/distinction since I noticed it. Does that make any sense?

I don't know exactly how significant this experience by comparison with the description of 'Initiation' in the Wave, but it's significant from the point of view of my own experience so far. It doesn't even feel esoterically magical, mysterious or anything special like that. Maybe it was just a clearing of a major emotional block that was preventing me from experiencing my Real self - or experiencing myself from the point of view of a real self-observer. I'm not quite sure how to phrase this.

It doesn't seem to mean that I am any better at understanding or expressing certain things, but I can see my own workings with some detachment no matter what seems to be going on. In fact, yesterday I had an entire day when I didn't care about, want or need anything for myself. Everything exists for the use and benefit of someone else. There was the fact of it and the feel of it to be true. Other than my basic needs, which also includes job hunting, all my attention is on doing whatever I can to make easier, the lives of the people in the realm of my immediate responsibility, which includes my wife, mom and Dad - as if that is the most important thing right now. I actually feel how important this is, no matter the cost to me in terms of time, effort, or whatever. I came away with a new and unexpected understanding of the concept 'serve yourself by serving others'. It seems when you can get a moment and see through or see around the false self, you see that there is nothing of you requiring so much attention anyway. That leaves "the you in others" who require help and support to get through this life.

I guess this is the process of maturing. I can see what was meant by "terrifying and exciting at the same time." When I found myself at that place for the first time, there was no way to know how it was going to turn out for me, but I'm pleased to say that things seem to be looking up and that I see only improvement from here, no matter any appearances to the contrary.
 
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