The fall of Reason

[John Chang]

OK, now how far east does "The West" go? Is it the old boundaries of Latin Christianity? But then how can ancient Greece be considered the founders of "Western Civilization?" OK, then does it include the area of Eastern Orthodox Christianity the old Eastern part of the Roman Empire and the lands to the north, like Russia (also Europe)? Well, no Russia is considered "the East" sort of. Does it mean the "developed countries?" I remember in the late Cold War, someone in the media saying something like, "Western countries, like Japan."

Anyway, you get the idea. These things get real slippery when you examine them. Same with the idea of decline. Does it have to do with raw power? Culture? Elite self-confidence?

Then I looked at the link you cited. It has to do with the United States or the American Empire, which I would agree is on the decline, but can Europe be said to be declining now? Also, he tries to tie it to culture, comparing decadent products today with more vital products of yesterday. That's hard to measure.

Jacques Derrida and Wittgenstein could more than hold their own with the 19th century thinkers. How about Freud? Does he count as 19th or 20th?

I think most historians are very sceptical about the whole "Decline of the West" thing, anyway. What is "decline"? What is "The West"?

The West, I would define as a loose confedation of the peoples of europe and north america. Perhaps you might even include Latin America as well?

I would define decline as increasing cultural entropy. This guy says it much better than I can, here's a link - http://prorev.com/quietstorm.htm

The main thing I'm trying to say is that there's a larger context to what Ark is talking about, that's all.

I would characterize europe as treading water - consolidating after a decline spurred on by two horrendous wars. I'll put it this way - what happened to all of the colonial holdings of europe? Algeria, Vietnam, Indonesia, the Congo? How about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S., South Africa, etc? Hong Kong? India?

Physics papers used to be all printed in German at one point in time. And being a physics student, learning German was a requisite. Was.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just that it is. (I think it's probably a "good" thing to have happened, but I s'pose it depends on your view of things).

But in the end, you're right, it all depends on the definitions and the viewpoints. I suppose for the people of India, for instance, it wasn't the "decline" of the British but the "rise" of their independence. Just like the "decline" of the U.S. economic health could be viewed as a "rise" of living standards of India and China.

Going further back, the "decline" of the Roman Empire could have been seen as the "rise" of the northern barbarians. Interesting to think about.

 

[ark]

I have asked for comments on the article "The Fall of Reason ..." on the Polish language newsgroup pl.sci.paranauki. The article was severely criticised - mainly for the lack of clarity of the message. I have to agree that indeed, the message of the article was not clear and the arguments are left without a good and convincing support. After reading my article again I see that it was really bad. Critics helps. :)

 

[John G]

I have asked for comments on the article "The Fall of Reason ..." on the Polish language newsgroup pl.sci.paranauki. The article was severely criticised - mainly for the lack of clarity of the message. I have to agree that indeed, the message of the article was not clear and the arguments are left without a good and convincing support. After reading my article again I see that it was really bad. Critics helps. :)

I wouldn't say really bad, I had to go read it again to see what you were talking about. I just mainly remembered the nicely bold ending. The problem may be not so much what you wrote but that the people you were quoting weren't talking directly enough about a scientist's conscience. The quotes seemed more related to a scientist's sense of mystery, the public's faith in science, and the problems of the world in general. All are issues that are important but it could be hard to treat them all in one not very long article where your introduction and conclusion are about the conscience of scientists. In general though I like the idea of referencing other people a lot. One editor told me that is wasn't important that he agreed with the papers in his journal, the ideas just had to flow well from the ideas of others.