The Carnivore Diet

Cosmos

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The above article are not doing anything to confirm raw meat is good, just saying that cooked meat is not so good.
From what I can see on a quick search, not many out there really want to delve into the science of the benefits of eating raw meat, as if it’s taboo.

Maybe part of the reason why that is, is because raw meat just isn't eatable, nor tasty in any way (at least from the chewing and taste perspective). At least that is my experience from having chewed on raw meat out of accident a couple of times. Once I ate somewhat raw duck meat, out of accident, and the taste of this was the most awful thing I ever experienced in my mouth. I'm not kidding. I literally couldn't get rid of this afoul taste for days afterwards and the sheer thinking about it activated the gag reflex. And mind you that I was never into veggy stuff and always liked to eat a lot of meat, so being in a veggy mindset certainly wasn't causing it. The meat in itself could have been bad of course, but I don't know if that was the case.

Also, as far as I remember when eating raw pork (or rather attempting to do so accidentally in the past) it is like chewing on hard slimy rubber, having always no possibility to chew anything of it into digestible pieces, unless you sit there for hours on end trying to break down a piece by chewing on it like crazy. On the other hand, things like smoked and salted meat are for the most part raw meat pieces that however get a lot more chewable and good tasting AFTER they have gone through the hanging, smoking and salting process.
 

Keyhole

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There is a lot to consider here, and I have been toying with the idea of raw meat-consumption... But I am tending toward thinking that cooked/marinated/processed/fermented meat is better suited for human consumption. This is not based on any hard evidence per se, since there are good arguments on either side.

However, my consideration is based on something I have heard Jordan Peterson say many times, which I believe might apply in this context. It has to do with the comparison between conservatism and liberalism, and why a safe bet would be to lean toward moderate conservatism. Conservatism is based on conserving what actually works and has been tried and tested over long periods of time.

Human beings have been cooking meat for a very long time, and it appears to work quite well. If it was so dangerous, then I dont believe we would have maintained this practice. I try to look at it this way: Eating raw meat take less time, less preparation, less effort, and ultimately less energy. Whereas cooking meat is clearly more expensive with regard to time and energy expenditure. From an evolutionary/economic perspective, why would humans have opted for the more expensive option if it did not provide sufficient returns?

I suspect that cooked meat may in fact provide superior returns (nutritionally speaking), hence the reason why humanity was willing to invest the extra time and energy in preparation.

However, a similar argument could be made for wheat/grain consumption, which I DON'T think was a good choice on the part of humanity. This is all speculation, so take it for what it is worth.
 

Beau

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Human beings have been cooking meat for a very long time, and it appears to work quite well. If it was so dangerous, then I dont believe we would have maintained this practice.

That's exactly my take on it. We obviously did well from an evolutionary perspective eating cooked meat. I don't see any reason to doubt what has been thousands of years of behavior.
 

nature

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Many of the lab works were suppressed because he was not a bio-chemist as far as legal qualification goes, he was self taught and funded by rich clients that had healed on his diet. He has no proof but his word and the word of others of what he witnessed in his investigations.
I’ve got an open mind, what I said before about many sides of the same coin rings true here because in the video I posted about how harmful cooked meat is there are many citations from many professionals other than Aaj who also studied harmful effects of cooked meat, cooked fat and cooked carbs- the info is quite contrary to the stuff you’ve just posted about the benefits, bioavailability, digestsbily of cooked meat

AV was always in some kind of legal/ethical/moral turmoil. Aajonus Vonderplanitz wasn’t his real name, he was provocative, intellectual, may be exaggerated here and there and certainly convincing but did he have good intentions, that I’m certain of. The ptb wanted to silence him, he was often in court acting as his own lawyer.

As far raw meat studies go, I too would like to see more, there are so very few people talking about raw and most of the stories are anecdotal.

I’m just saying for now, this raw meat is what I’m doing because Im rather concerned about the long term problems if what I’m reading is true about how toxic cooked meat is.
Either way it’s a carnivore diet and that’s way better than being a vegan.

Harmful effects of cooked fat? We have long experience here, and studies by holistic doctors, about benefits of cooking with animal fat (lard, ghee) or coconut oil, which are fats that don't transform when heated. The harmful fats are the vegetable ones when heated or hydrogenated.
Harmful effects of cooked carbs? It's the contrary! Cooking vegetables and grains inhibits some of their anti-nutrients (ex: phytic acid) . I read nastasha Campbell's book and she says it's better to cook vegetables (soups) when they are reintroduced months later.
So a guy who lacks basic knowledge on diet and is convincing despite his obvious gaps is a red flag.

Carnivore raw diet better than vegan? Sure if you compare it to an extreme diet. Better but not optimal.

it’s not that odd to eat raw meat. All cultures do it. Steak tartare, carpaccio, oysters, sashimi, to name a few. Most people I’ve spoken to really understand, as if on an instinctual level seem to aknowlege it’s as close to natural as possible and are probably glad that I’m doing something that hopefully helps me get better so I stop whining about how crap I feel :)
On these 4 meals, I can stand only carpaccio, and not on a regular basis. I'll try it again but in a fermented way (Natasha Campbell advices fermenting meats). Raw oyters, steak tartare ans sashimi: I never was able to swallow them. Impossible! The idea of raw liver and raw brain as advocated by some people: impossible, even imagining it is very repulsive for me. If some people are able to eat that, maybe it's good for them and only them. I prefer listening my body.
Whereas cooked meat, cooked organs seem to make the unanimious agreement.

Thank you to all of you who responded to my question :flowers:
 

Odyssey

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I suspect that cooked meat may in fact provide superior returns (nutritionally speaking), hence the reason why humanity was willing to invest the extra time and energy in preparation.

However, a similar argument could be made for wheat/grain consumption, which I DON'T think was a good choice on the part of humanity. This is all speculation, so take it for what it is worth.

Good point, Keyhole. Agriculture requires loads of time and effort and has had disastrous results. Humans may have evolved on cooked meat requiring time and effort too (though we can't negate all of the raw meat and dairy consumption that has taken place along side the cooked meat consumption throughout evolution) but it doesn't mean that it's better than a diet consisting of more raw meat/dairy. It could be that it's just good enough. An argument could be made that the raw meat and dairy consumed by some cultures was beneficial in the face of increased plant and grain consumption.

This, of course, is just speculation on my part as well and there is no way of knowing with absolute certainty.

If my only experience with raw is the sushi bar and some rare meat --which it is-- I certainly won't sit here and argue against it. Nor will I run out and eat raw meat bought at WalMart either. If I had access to a trusted farmer who could provide fresh raw meat or dairy I'd be up to trying it for sure.

As with any health experiment, it's the results that count. Sometimes anectdotal reports are all there is and a lot of people in dire health straits aren't gonna sit around and wait for the science before they try something different. If people are reporting that they feel wonderful on raw, good for them.
 

Odyssey

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I've been doing carnivore for a little over a month...but if you count the days I ate onions and mushrooms with my meat it's a little less.:-) I found out that onions make me bloated and horribly gassy so I cut them and the mushrooms out. I thought it was the eggs but thank God it wasn't. They're too yummy to give up permanently.

I'm gonna stick with this carnivore thing for a long while. It's such a relief to not have any carb or sweet cravings. It's very satisfying as well.
 

luc

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I must say I love this so far. It was pretty easy for me after a short transition period (which was still difficult), now I hardly have any cravings, lost a little weight (but not too much, thanks God, was afraid of that), I don't need a nap anymore during the day as before... I still have "energy holes", but the net energy has gone up. General mood is also better, less beating myself up, and I'm thinking straighter it seems. I'm also better able to "let things go" during discussions and so on, or so it seems.

After 2 weeks straight carnivore (except coffee with coconut milk :halo:), we had exceptions during the last few days when we were with family. It's interesting, after eating vegetables again, I almost felt mildly poisoned! It did something with my thinking, my mood etc. On the other hands, I seem to handle eggs very well. Even the occasional dairy doesn't seem to affect me much. But veggies - no!

Having large amounts of muscle meats is also discouraged by some camps -at least without equal amounts organs and gelatine. And the keto folk also say don't eat too much protein, but that looks pretty much impossible on this diet.

What I like about the carnivore thing is that you can do away with all the "bean counting", haha. The way I understand it, the keto folks want you to count proteins because if you eat too much, the body turns 'em into sugar, so your carbs may exceed acceptable keto levels. Whereas on carnivore, you almost eat zero carbs anyway, so it simply doesn't matter. In my experience, on carnivore my body tells me exactly how much protein and fat I need, but even if I go overboard, it's not a real issue.

Also, I found myself worrying way less about food, which is great. All the "how much carbs can I eat"/"can I eat this now or shouldn't I"/"what are we having for dinner, can I now eat this?" nonsense is gone. I eat if I like, when I like, how much I want, and feel good no matter what - whether I fast for a whole day or have a snack every 2 hours. What a relief!

The only negative for me so far is the transition period, which was still difficult, and the social factor. Other than that, seems to work for me - so far at least.
 

Cosmos

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If my only experience with raw is the sushi bar and some rare meat --which it is-- I certainly won't sit here and argue against it.

Good point about Sushi, which is raw fish meat eaten quite frequently and in big amounts not only in Japan. There is also the case of the Eskimos, who, from what I‘ve heard, ate and still eat a lot of raw meat mainly in the form of seal fat and meat.

In their case however it seems that the rough and cold environment with not much food and fire wood available, made this the rule rather than the exception. How much of their diet consisted or still consist of meat I don‘t know. What I heard though is that they seem to be pretty healthy physiologically speaking.
 

lilyalic

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Day 5 of the carnivore diet (with added ketchup, coffee, butter and some coconut milk today!) but jeez it's hard - I don't even like meat that much! I have never liked bacon, no matter how much I eat it. - but, today I really did find myself craving meat so I bought some GF pork scratching and Beef jerky and much preferred the taste.

I've been struggling with Hormonal acne for a good few months now, and since I started eating 99% meat, they're really starting to clear up. Now, if some pop back up tomorrow then it's a definite bye bye to the Coconut milk! Perhaps soon I'll start dropping the condiments soon. I do need to purchase a blood glucose meter soon, to measure my levels levels as last time it was tested by a member it was below 2.0 in the morning so there are some issues there.

As for the raw meat comments, not a chance am I going to eat a raw steak or any raw meat for that fact - I really think it's pointless and I enjoy the different things you can do with the meat, and experimenting with how it tastes depending on how you cook it.
 

Fluffy

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Maybe part of the reason why that is, is because raw meat just isn't eatable, nor tasty in any way (at least from the chewing and taste perspective). At least that is my experience from having chewed on raw meat out of accident a couple of times. Once I ate somewhat raw duck meat, out of accident, and the taste of this was the most awful thing I ever experienced in my mouth. I'm not kidding. I literally couldn't get rid of this afoul taste for days afterwards and the sheer thinking about it activated the gag reflex. And mind you that I was never into veggy stuff and always liked to eat a lot of meat, so being in a veggy mindset certainly wasn't causing it. The meat in itself could have been bad of course, but I don't know if that was the case.

Also, as far as I remember when eating raw pork (or rather attempting to do so accidentally in the past) it is like chewing on hard slimy rubber, having always no possibility to chew anything of it into digestible pieces, unless you sit there for hours on end trying to break down a piece by chewing on it like crazy. On the other hand, things like smoked and salted meat are for the most part raw meat pieces that however get a lot more chewable and good tasting AFTER they have gone through the hanging, smoking and salting process.
I’m only eating raw red meat, the idea of white meat other than fish has no appeal to me nor are there any benefits nutrition wise better than eating red meat. I did try raw chicken liver, it ended up in the blender so I could just get to down without chewing or tasting too much, I’ll stick to lamb livers, I’ve acquired a taste for them enough to not just want dinner over and done with. Some good raw beef fat is really quite nice and buttery, so fatty cuts of beef are quite okay to eat.
 

mrtn

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@lilyalic, for me ketchup is much worse of an achne trigger than coconut milk i think, especially if it contains sugar. I can eat tomatoes (raw/cooked) without problems, but no ketchup.
 

genero81

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I've read and listened to a few things. One guy I heard, who seemed like he was pretty experienced with the Carnivore diet basically just said that eating raw takes longer to digest. I think if one is in a transition phase as most of us probably are, then eating cooked meats is the way to go because it seems eating until you're satiated is going to help with the transition the most. (from what people say) After thoroughly transitioning, then I think trying some things raw might be of interest. Especially organ meats. I can't say I'm a big fan of organ meats but I also can't say I've really tried to eat quality organ meats. First thing I would have to do is locate some. In the meantime supplementing with K-2 and Cod liver oil and some Vitamin C will supposedly give you the nutrients your missing if your diet doesn't currently include organ meats.
 

Carl

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That's about 5 days done. 99% carnivore apart from coffee and some teaspoons of honey occasionally.

The adaptation has had some rough spots so far

The "keto flu" immediately disappeared after one day, and headaches got better over a few days.
Crazy moods: Mild to moderate depression, anxiety, dread have often been my mental state.
Can't say I've felt healthy generally.

Some skin issues seem to be getting better.
Also my body has shed a lot of water weight and is now going straight for the fat stores. I tend to store extremely stubborn water and fat on the chest and belly, but since doing this diet I pretty much have a 6-pack and square pecs overnight.

Also feels like I have pretty damn high levels of histamine. Itchy skin, runny nose, brain fog and anxiety are all symptoms.

Some things I've learned.

If eating only meat, get a load of fat. Today all I've eaten is a beef joint cooked yesterday - it's mostly lean, not so fun to eat (even with a lot of butter) and didn't leave me feeling so good. Also I'm still not sure about butter.

I'm more sensitive to coffee on this diet - probably due to the lack of carbs counteracting the stress response initiated by coffee.
This means I'll feel euphoric for a few hours, but it later gives way to sluggishness, stiffness, tired eyes and poor mood.
Basically seems I need to limit the coffee, which is pretty sad.

Carnivore is basically an ultimate low oxalate diet for anyone who's been looking into that. Turns out I have high oxalates and am also producing them. They can be drastically elevated after spending years eating the so-called "healthy" foods and substitutes like sweet potato, spinach, almonds(+flour), chocolate, tea and many others. Basically staples of a paleo or keto diet.

Detoxing these oxalates can cause all kinds of symptoms and most likely a diet such as this would cause the beginning of such detoxing (the low oxalate community calls it dumping).

There is also some correlation with oxalates and histamine intolerance apparently, which I need to look into more.
 

lilyalic

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@lilyalic, for me ketchup is much worse of an acne trigger than coconut milk i think, especially if it contains sugar. I can eat tomatoes (raw/cooked) without problems, but no ketchup.

Thank you for sharing this mrtn, I'll cut it out and see if this makes anymore drastic changes. :-)
 
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