Sun/Moon In Desert Lake dream

[Guest]

I've been commenting on people's dreams for a while now, so I thought I would post one of my own, if anyone wishes to comment. I had this one last night.

I found myself in an exotic location like an ancient village carved in smoothed out red rock formations, like those you see in Utah, only this was in Asia somewhere. Doors and windows were rounded and streets were also curved and smooth. A group of male children were playing ball in an open area between "houses" (my view of them was from the other side of the street), and several Tibetan monks were meditating further down, sitting in the street, some silent, some chanting, some using prayer wheels.

I left this place and came out to a side of a desert cliff over a vast expanse of fresh water. I could see the coastline (all rock and desert) curving round and another mountain off in the distance, which may have had foliage. This was forward, and the shore curved to my left. To my right the body of water ended beyond the horizon line.

The ground and rock was the same reddish/yellow colored desert material, and even the lake was amber as was the sky. The sun was straight in front, and the moon seemed off to the right. I moved down the path to my left, and could see ruins of a city made of the same rock down on the coast as I descended.

This was an ancient city with elaborate buildings and spires with interconnecting narrow bridges. Although I think I was walking, it was more like flying rapidly at ground level and in no time I was at the shore close to the ruins. I noticed then that the sun and moon were ON the water, barely touching it.

I also realized that two of the kids in the village were following me. I ignored them and went around the lake to where I knew the ideal spot to get in the water was. As I did this my perspective of the sun and moon on the water changed until I reached the point where they were aligned with the moon in front of the sun. This changed the light because I was in the shadow of an eclipse that fell upon the city.

A bridge from a tower in the city went out toward the water and descended beneath it, while another part of the bridge continued above and broke off. I was in the water, which I discovered was very deep looking straight into the eclipse. The water was also muddy, but I could see large dark shapes, so I wondered if they were sharks. The kids were also with me, and started getting scared although before they acted pretty cocky and bold about the whole thing.

I was half a mind to leave them there but felt I had to lead them back to the bridge since they were starting to panic. At the same time I was set at ease about the sharks because even though the water was murky I could see a clear image of a dolphin deep below that seemed to communicate that all was well.

Still, I had to swin toward the bridge because the kids were starting to grab at me. So I led them back and they scrambled ashore and started to wrestle in some kind of horseplay. I got the distinct impression that they just wanted to keep me from reaching the sun/moon spheres out in the body of water.

Before I got a chance to turn around the dream was disrupted and the scene changed as if a rug was pulled out or somebody turned a switch. That was it for that segment.

 

[Cricket]

This kids are very suspiscious.
Even when you saw the Dolphin, the kids were starting to grab at you.
So you lead them out... to what? So they can start to wrestle and horseplay!
I agree they keep you from reaching the sun/moon complex.
The kids came-out from the city in ruins. This inspired me a plot on your dream which you dont mention: I felt the inhabitants of the first village were keeping their selfs afar from this second ruins. And this second ruins were the sort of "ghost town" the inhabitants of the first village would elude, as said in their ancient tales, related by the monks to the children: "Be aware of that city, children! There are not good things there!" etc. I dare to add this sub-plot because those two children chased you to distract your attention from your goal, like the little devils one find in the road use to do.
And about your goal, I find it deliciously marvelous. Those astral spheres, which you aligned... waw it strikes me as a inconmensurable esoteric event, and it took me much reflection to even grasp some referent.
Remember how Zuleica (it was Zuleica, right?) used to take Castaneda to that other world to see the dawn of this incredibly gigantic, utterly fascinating star comming out slowly from the horizon? This pasage of course took me beyond my self into a impossible to describe territory where what we call "astral" appears in all it's literacy as a incredible star or a sun/moon complex acting (taking into motion) the archetypes.
Such was your destiny: The union with the encarnated symbol of the "astral". So you aligned them by aligning your self towards them, in line, in sinthony: You were set to go straight to that conjuntion as the third element... the central point! (Sun: Exterior circle. Moon: Smaller, interior circle. EQ: Central point of this trilogy).
Who's flag is that (three concentric circles)?
But.... damn... you had to lead the kids who were not in danger and, quite evidently, knew how to swim.

That was it for that segment.

Is there another segment?
***
There was another powerful image I associated to your dream: Arcana XVIII, "La Lune" [http://www.camoin.com/en/look/look.asp]. This is, for me, one of the most, if not the most, esoteric arcana of them all. For me has been impossible to crack, or better.... I think it is way too "secret" as to be cracked, because of it's astral encription (when I say "astral", I mean "planetary" or, more directly, the spanish "astral", as "astral body" in physics). I feel I commit sacrilege if I try to decode this arcana. Anyway, the thing is, I had never trusted that Lobster inside that lake. Way too misterious. It gives me the impression it awaits for it's victim, then emerges at lighting speed, to close its claw on one's feet, to then slowly and triumphantly go back to the deepths while it's pray fights uselessly for its life...
I relate that Lobster with those kids. Two, like those dogs barking at the moon... a radiant moon (you, in the XVIII Arcana).
Observe the colors of the Lobster. Same colors of the panorama in your dream.
Whats your take on this Lobster?
Rescently you mention your mother and something messing-up with your family, and that you have not recovered from that yet. Any relation to this? Hope not!

 

[Guest]

Well, I just got to experience the benefits of someone else's insight on my own dream. Pretty cool :). I already had some idea regarding what this dream meant, but your view expanded the picture quite a bit.

The "kids" in a thousand different forms are a constant feature in my dreams. The "child" form is more accurate because it shows imaturity in the face of the rest of the dream message. I usually have revealing dreams like this in the beginning and then as the night goes on these influences of resistence interfere in any way they can, and keep up a pressure that usually results in the dream changing into something where the kids are giants or walking dead or thugs trying to pick a fight.

I learned to deal with these, and then the dream twists into the resistance manifesting as cops or politicians telling me I have to obey the rules or catching me with drugs or something, or as bus drivers or plane attendents asking for tickets I don't have, or teachers telling me I failed some test. They play "beaurocrat" usually after they try more direct attacks and fail. This barrage of confusion is still something I am learning to confront.

Every night, however, I am searching and sometimes I find myself flying accross the world to islands where the destination lies only to have people screaming "Nooo, you will hurt us" or "We won't let you" and other such things. As soon as my attention turns the dream shifts to the stupid version. And so I find myself dealing with residues during the day to get back the energy state that results in this "esoquest" in the dreamscape.

The truth is that the kids and the monks meditating were versions of the same thing: Immature spirituality and outright Cosmic CoIntelPro. The kids were actually sent by the monks, but the monks were playing "innocent". The ghost city was their ancestors' or rather the "Old Ones" or something like that (your comments actually opened up some more memories of the dream).

These Old Ones...I did not have a good feeling about them, like the whole purpose of the city was to either cover up what the lake represented or otherwise manipulate it. Since the more recent characters seemed to be hell-bent on carrying on the tradition, they sent the brats to make sure I didn't disturb anything.

I am sure I would have been attacked if I had not felt that I somehow had prepared for the event. In fact, I was ready for anything, and THEY knew it so used the kids as a guilt ploy. That is one level of interpretation. I was also influenced by Lucy's Jehova Witness dream here:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1349

In that there were also two young men, but they played a different role, and the resistance forces in my dream used the two children to lead me to an association and consider the kids well-meaning. You can imagine how sneaky these directions are!

There is another level revealed by tarot card symbolism as you very well pointed out, and I believe this is because the dream also has an alchemical nature. In any case the two children belong to some versions of the Tarot card The Sun, but as you say, there is also the Lunar Duality involved as well.

At first I only saw the sun, but then the moon appeared, and then both were on the water and about the size of small mountains, within swimming distance. I felt the dream was moving me forward this time, that there was a strong flow to it and that negative forces could not really do much. It was really the brats that sent the thoughtform of the shark. They wanted to lead me to a conscious choice to turn the other way. Oh well, the good thing with these zones is that the are not one-shot deals. I just need to clear more space...

As far as the sun/moon complex is concerned, I had the sense that it is a key of which as you mentioned I was the third element. And to activate the key one needed the proper perspective to set the two into alignment. As you can see, a triad was involved. And as you can see the two little brats tried to offset this by creating an anti-triad with me.

You asked about the three circles. Perhaps you have something in mind, and I don't think the following image is exactly correspondent to the meaning, but it gives some clues. Notice the three rings bounding the letters. It's an early Christian sign, maybe even Gnostic. See this thread for relevant info:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1312&p=2

Specifically:

J.L. : These questions are important and generally embarrassing. Certain terms in these questions reflect the typical confusion, or disinformation if you prefer, circulating about the Gnostic material. In reality, the term "Christ" never apprears in the Codex of Nag Hammadi, neither does the name of Jesus. We instead find a recurrent code : XC or XRC (translated into CHS or CHRS) in Coptic, and the codes IC and HC translated into IS. For example, in the "Tripartite Treaty" (117.10), the text mentions the term HC in Coptic. The translator changed it into H(COY)C, "Isous" which has been translated into Jesus. You can see how far go the researchers and translators to manipulate the codes in order to conform them with their prejudice. Most of Gnostic texts use terms such as "the Savior", the "Lord" or "the one who reveals" without precising at all that it's Jesus or Christ.

Here, we have the alpha and omega on either side of the Chi and Rho (XP) for ChRistos.

In Cabbalah the sun represents the physical, the moon represents the psyche or inner sanctum of the soul, and I was going there.

The Moon card, however, is also another symbol regarding the lake, and the color was not quite mud but a kind of amber, like honey. I wondered in the dream about it and concluded that the water wasn't dirty, but saturated with some kind of mineral that had alchemical significance, as if there was gold hidden in it. IN fact, I would say it was the color of the image above. Interesting...

The lobster is instinctual evolution or the representation of life. It should represent the ancient fish that crawls on land, because the traditional designation of the Moon card is the sign Pisces. So we have a fusion of organic life and the subconscious here (deep psyche) along with the solar bio-force, and needing only the human soul component to activate whatever was to be activated to reveal whatever those brats (temporarily) stopped.

The lobster is scary because it represents the primitive in life and the subconscious, but it is not necessarily dangerous. In this case the dolphin was predominating and I KNEW that negative forces that I usually find in dreams of murky waters were abscent. I had a lot of dreams before with sharks and dark serpents and other monsters in water. This time I was safe and the conditions were right. I think I'll not go so easy on the kids next time, but of course the resistance will choose another form then.

No...this wasn't about outer personal problems. Those usually manifest directly without much symbolism as the people involved saying things outright. Anyway, thanks for the input. It helped alot.

 

[Cricket]

That is correct Sr. The flag of Michael is three concentric circles.
This arrangement is the objective: To get to be part of the arrangment. In your dream you had to aim to the consecution of the figure by achieving the proper perspective: Then you would let your self go, adding your essence and the key is accomplished.
It is perhaps the accomplishment of this key what has been obstructed time and again, in a thousand different forms?
I had a nap this evening. Was this not-sleep-not-awake state of relaxation, and came to my mind another image of the Arcana XVIII (and something about the color of the image you posted): It appeared to me the Lobster (You) was advancing towards the Moon, behind the which, there is the Sun. Between Lobster and Cosmic Alignment, two dogs... Guardians of the world, ok, but more presiselly, Guardians of the Lobster, dedicated to stop its acention.
So then I come and read this your descriptions of the influences of resistance presenting a preassure at every attempt of yours... thugs trying to pick a fight, like the dogs.
This is where I most confess I did think it twice before attemting a comment to your dream because evidently I am not at your level, but I did it anyway with a great intent and demand from me. And the experiences you report are most definetelly out of my field of experiences and I can see the deep problematic you exposed, that fight against the constant manifestations of resistance, trying to manipulate you by guilt or by the means of the authority principle: Outright Cosmic Cointelpro.
I bet you do not set appart the other experiences you have been expressing, as being onirics and non-onirics, but the very same source acting.
And I see this is not a particulary speciall dream, but the instance of a more trascendent situation to the which you have arrived, and the which you are to breack-through, defeating the resistance or, I should call it, the CounterIntelligence: It is you the one presenting a great resistance against those forces (but I understand your phracing: They insert a resistance against your attempts).

the color was not quite mud but a kind of amber, like honey. I wondered in the dream about it and concluded that the water wasn't dirty, but saturated with some kind of mineral that had alchemical significance, as if there was gold hidden in it.

Allow me to offer you this altenative interpretation to the color of the water:

In the Kingdom of Sulpur (cabalistically: Soul Fire) there exists a Mirror in which the entire World can be seen. Whosoever looks into this Mirror can see and learn the three parts of Wisdom of the entire World.

This paragraph appears wherever Fulcanelli is being discussed on the literature.
Your mention of Alchemy brought this paragraph to my memory, and I thought maybe the color is not due to Gold, but to the fact the water was, in fact, Sulpure (!). And see the three parts of Wisdom? Moon-Sun-Soul in arrangment.
And below all this.. a Dolphin.
Man, your dreams are mistic!
As I said before, all this is beyond my level (instance, I dont kow what a Dolphin means, but I will try to figure that one out) but I offer input with joy while, on the go, I, as we all, learn lots from you. You know we will be glad to interact and learn all those things there are to learn from you.
What are you planing to do against this negative forces? How?

 

[Ruth]

The "kids" in a thousand different forms are a constant feature in my dreams.

Yes, because you are 'out of touch' with your inner child who is trying to tell you something. Disconnected maybe? Perhaps you have 'forgotten' how to 'be' a child? Is your 'inner child' trying to reconnect you with that sense of mischief or innocence? Afterall, this occurs again and again and again, doesn't it?

Children actually have a lot of wisdom. It is innate in them. You seem to be too busy chasing symbols around to notice what ever it is they have to say or maybe want to say. Perhaps it is important, or perhaps you already know what it is they are trying to communicate... Children tend to be symbols of innocence rather than 'agents' of anything, or so I have found in my dreams. They have an ancient wisdom and strength that surprises some adults. Often mistaken for weak or annoying they can be an interesting 'disguise' for our inner strength or essence. They can be 'connections' to a person's inner essence or their deepest being. A reminder of who we are, and where we came from... Perhaps our real power?

Maybe with that said, your children will actually start to talk with you (in a child like way, of course). It seems a bit like you have to learn how to communicate with them again. Perhaps you could try? It would be interesting if you notice any changes. Especially if what they are saying starts to make any sense or changes in any way. Are you worried about what they have to say?

Dolphins are aquatic mamals, they exist in water (which is usually symbolic of emotion). I don't think you can start to 'communicate' with species, accept emotionally until you start to speak to the kids first.

I get a 'sense' of 'blocking' or disconnection here relating to something in your childhood. It has to do with emotion. There is something going on here... I'm not sure if you'll want to revisit it or not. It could be a traumatic experience that feels nasty or unwelcome.

In Utah, huh? The American Indians came from Asia and might be seen as having an Asian appearance. You probably were in America. Watch out for those monks though, they are some sort of 'control' or watching you. Hmm, something really flicked the switch on that dream didn't it? Perhaps the 'controlers' didn't want you to discover something? Spooky!

 

[Guest]

This paragraph appears wherever Fulcanelli is being discussed on the literature.
Your mention of Alchemy brought this paragraph to my memory, and I thought maybe the color is not due to Gold, but to the fact the water was, in fact, Sulpure (!). And see the three parts of Wisdom? Moon-Sun-Soul in arrangment.
And below all this.. a Dolphin.

When you mentioned the Lucifer dream, as a depiction of the human condition, I sensed you had a developing ability of understanding the dream world and putting the context of the real world in terms of dreams and vice versa. Many people can interpret a dream in terms of the real world, but how many can consciously interpret a difficult to understand real world condition in dream terms with such clarity?

And I think its important because the link between dreams and real world goes both ways and to be able to understand the conversions of meaning from one domain to the next and back again is like a doorway into perception potential that includes both dream and waking modes into something that is a whole, more than just a sum of two parts.

And I think you have exhibited this ability in interpreting my dream, because the symbols are archtypal more than they are psychologically personal. Your observation regarding the nature of the water as sulfurized struck me a quite correct. How do I know? Because somewhere deep inside I was thinking along similar lines but could not bring it up to the surface and put words to it.

And at the same time sulfur is yellow, and this color was amber and a bit darker but not in any dirty sense. And it was sulfure as a suspension in water, probably with something else. At the same time I realized that the reddish color in the rocks and mud can come from iron oxide compounds. It was strange because in the dream the old city had two accesses to the water. One went high above and the other entered it, although both were broken.

And as I was swimming for a second the higher bridge turned into a modern stell bridge with girders as if it was meant for a train to run through it. It almost seemed the city was connected to a modern ruin, but the association was fleeting. Anyway, I agree with the sulfur association, but think there is an iron component in there as well, which makes it interesting and maybe there is a blood significance connected to the spirit fire you mention, maybe some allusion to genetic activation.

Thanks again for the insight. As it stands the dream reveals to me where I am and what I have to move through to activate the key, as you say. I believe it is a prolonged process that reveals itself occasionally when a certain stage of clarity has been reached. After that its back to the grindstone of dealing with all those inner conditionings that allow me to get side-tracked.

The "kids" in a thousand different forms are a constant feature in my dreams.

Yes, because you are 'out of touch' with your inner child who is trying to tell you something. Disconnected maybe? Perhaps you have 'forgotten' how to 'be' a child? Is your 'inner child' trying to reconnect you with that sense of mischief or innocence? Afterall, this occurs again and again and again, doesn't it?

Interesting interpretation. Let's examine it.

First I think you misunderstood what I meant by "a thousand different forms". The "child" form is only one of them. They manifest as other things not so pleasant as well. So really, they are not children.

Let's assume, however, that they are, and that all the other forms are really how I view my inner child: as a vampiric, a zomie, a warrior trying to kill me, a business man taking advantage of others, as thugs in a bad neighboorhood, as university professors demanding I submit my test sheet (which is not available), as beaurocrats telling me I did not pay my taxes, as police finding drugs on me etc. Boy! I must be really messed up to associate my inner child in this way! It seems I have been turned inside-out with my inner child playing oppressive authoritative roles. Seems that inner child is quite the outer controller.

To make matters even more strange these were two children sent by the monks out of a larger group playing soccer (in a competitive way) in a side street. So not only is my inner child turned inside-out, but it has split in two.

All of this, of course, means that the inner child's wisdom is telling my that going to that sun/moon combination in the lake was something bad. The shark thought came from them. When the dolphin revealed there was nothing to be afraid of, the kids started thrashing in the water, although they had no problem swimming out there. Dolphins do exist in water, but they breath air and air is of the mental plane.

So you might consider this a mental lucidity in a water medium. At the same time, dolphins are masters of high frequency sound, so a vibratory element comes in as well. If this was a pure emotional representation I would be seeing fish I think. Actually, dolphins have always played the role of protectors of a higher consciousness in the medium where one can find sharks and sea monsters. They have also played a role of supportive guide, and always conveying a sense of compassion and understanding. What a schizoid psychopathic inner child I must have to hate this kind of presence.

Your interpretation further tells me to communicate with the kids before anything else. But the kids were there to prevent me from doing anything else. That much was clear. There was no reasoning with them because they were the child aspects of the monks, (monks and kids were two groups of about equal numbers on different streets). In fact I found myself at an intersection where both were visible at the same time (monks in front and kids to my right).

So if the monks were a "control" so were the kids.

And I did talk with these kids. Once they saw me out of the water, they grinned maliciously and started romping in mock battle, in the same way they were playing soccer. Anyway, this may not be true for you, but after some point of giving everything the benefit of the doubt you DO get a sense of what is and what is not on your side so to speak. And I do have ways of reaccessing my dream to address the more ambiguous aspects. And the kids are pretty dark beings. If they are me, then anything I've ever written on this site is the product of a sick and deeply troubled mind. That would probably not bother those who have disagreed with me too much I think.

I have had dreams of my inner child, and those involved one child, and I felt great love for it. The tone was very different. I also realize that before any internal work can be done, or at least from its first stages, the past must be confronted, and I have been doing so for years. A lot to confront, for sure, but after two decades I think I am well beyond the "revisiting" stage.

And I have had many traumatic experiences of the nasty and unwelcome variety including regular physical and verbal abuse and a close brush with sexual molestation. Been there, done that, more than once and from multiple angles. At some point, however, one DOES get a sense of difference between psychological trauma and other forms of resistance.

Hmm, something really flicked the switch on that dream didn't it? Perhaps the 'controlers' didn't want you to discover something? Spooky!

So I guess you are also implying the controllers did not want me to discover this deep dark thing. I wonder why my own trauma would threaten them? I would think (as has been my experience with such matters) that forces of resistence just LOVE to play painful movies of past hurts over and over again to keep one paralyzed.

Of course, your interpertation bypasses all the other symbolism. Kind of a selective interpretation, I would say. Ruth, if I didn't know better, I would suspect you were trying to make me doubt myself...

 

[Cricket]

think there is an iron component in there as well, which makes it interesting and maybe there is a blood significance connected to the spirit fire you mention, maybe some allusion to genetic activation.

Soul Fire. Yes.
And I suspect what is that key: The key unlocks the gift of God.
I agree: The dream do not points to a inner child. It points to a de-veiling of the control system (most particulary after your presittions), a trip beyond the lye and to the imminent activation of a seer (after unlocking the cosmos -as if such a thing were necesary).

 

[Ruth]

First I think you misunderstood what I meant by "a thousand different forms". The "child" form is only one of them. They manifest as other things not so pleasant as well. So really, they are not children.

So, to clarify, are you seeling lots of children in your dreams or not? Usually (I find) dreams tend to be very honest and things will appear as they are meant to be seen, unless there is direct Lizzie interference. Then there will be a sense of 'labouring', 'mechanicalness' or 'falseness' about the character/s who appears in your deam. A person gets a 'sense' that appearances are not matching the 'feel' of the (whatever it is) character in your dream.

Here I assume that any person who has the least bit of 4D/STO/'against the Lizzies' talent is going have direct interference in all areas of their life and recently, it has occured to me that this means dreams too.

Let's assume, however, that they are, and that all the other forms are really how I view my inner child: as a vampiric, a zomie, a warrior trying to kill me, a business man taking advantage of others, as thugs in a bad neighboorhood, as university professors demanding I submit my test sheet (which is not available), as beaurocrats telling me I did not pay my taxes, as police finding drugs on me etc. Boy! I must be really messed up to associate my inner child in this way! It seems I have been turned inside-out with my inner child playing oppressive authoritative roles. Seems that inner child is quite the outer controller.

Are you saying that all these people appear in your dreams as actual children, or that they appear in character and you associate their behaviour with childishness?

To make matters even more strange these were two children sent by the monks out of a larger group playing soccer (in a competitive way) in a side street. So not only is my inner child turned inside-out, but it has split in two.

These children may be a part of yourself trying to communicate with yourself. They may have been 'sent by the monks', but imo children generally do what they want, not what they're 'told' to do. You gotta understand that Lizzie control isn't infallible.... unless we are unaware of it.

All of this, of course, means that the inner child's wisdom is telling my that going to that sun/moon combination in the lake was something bad. The shark thought came from them. When the dolphin revealed there was nothing to be afraid of, the kids started thrashing in the water, although they had no problem swimming out there. Dolphins do exist in water, but they breath air and air is of the mental plane.

So you might consider this a mental lucidity in a water medium. At the same time, dolphins are masters of high frequency sound, so a vibratory element comes in as well. If this was a pure emotional representation I would be seeing fish I think. Actually, dolphins have always played the role of protectors of a higher consciousness in the medium where one can find sharks and sea monsters. They have also played a role of supportive guide, and always conveying a sense of compassion and understanding. What a schizoid psychopathic inner child I must have to hate this kind of presence.

Your interpretation further tells me to communicate with the kids before anything else. But the kids were there to prevent me from doing anything else. That much was clear. There was no reasoning with them because they were the child aspects of the monks, (monks and kids were two groups of about equal numbers on different streets). In fact I found myself at an intersection where both were visible at the same time (monks in front and kids to my right).

So if the monks were a "control" so were the kids.

And I did talk with these kids. Once they saw me out of the water, they grinned maliciously and started romping in mock battle, in the same way they were playing soccer. Anyway, this may not be true for you, but after some point of giving everything the benefit of the doubt you DO get a sense of what is and what is not on your side so to speak. And I do have ways of reaccessing my dream to address the more ambiguous aspects. And the kids are pretty dark beings. If they are me, then anything I've ever written on this site is the product of a sick and deeply troubled mind. That would probably not bother those who have disagreed with me too much I think.

I have had dreams of my inner child, and those involved one child, and I felt great love for it. The tone was very different. I also realize that before any internal work can be done, or at least from its first stages, the past must be confronted, and I have been doing so for years. A lot to confront, for sure, but after two decades I think I am well beyond the "revisiting" stage.

And I have had many traumatic experiences of the nasty and unwelcome variety including regular physical and verbal abuse and a close brush with sexual molestation. Been there, done that, more than once and from multiple angles. At some point, however, one DOES get a sense of difference between psychological trauma and other forms of resistance.

Hmm, something really flicked the switch on that dream didn't it? Perhaps the 'controlers' didn't want you to discover something? Spooky!

So I guess you are also implying the controllers did not want me to discover this deep dark thing. I wonder why my own trauma would threaten them? I would think (as has been my experience with such matters) that forces of resistence just LOVE to play painful movies of past hurts over and over again to keep one paralyzed.

They probably just wanted to hide where the control was coming from - the monks.

Of course, your interpertation bypasses all the other symbolism. Kind of a selective interpretation, I would say. Ruth, if I didn't know better, I would suspect you were trying to make me doubt myself...

Can't make you do anything! You will do what you will do, with or without Lizzie interference.

 

[Guest]

So, to clarify, are you seeling lots of children in your dreams or not? Usually (I find) dreams tend to be very honest and things will appear as they are meant to be seen, unless there is direct Lizzie interference. Then there will be a sense of 'labouring', 'mechanicalness' or 'falseness' about the character/s who appears in your deam. A person gets a 'sense' that appearances are not matching the 'feel' of the (whatever it is) character in your dream.

Here I assume that any person who has the least bit of 4D/STO/'against the Lizzies' talent is going have direct interference in all areas of their life and recently, it has occured to me that this means dreams too.

In some dreams there are children, but these dreams are not frequent. "Labouring" and "Mechanicalness"...I guess you mean there is a lack of fluidity in movement and intelligence. That must be particular to your dreams, because I don't remember "sensing" this in any dream, unless the dream persons are corpses walking about like you see in some movies.

The "sense" that appearances are not matching the "feel" sometimes happens, but to me that is relative. Any form can appear to correspond to any intent, and I usually go by the intent the dream image radiates. I, on the other hand can be very mechanical in some dreams myself, as if it is not me or all of me that is playing the role of me. I can usually tell the difference after I wake up.

It is true that anyone trying to march to the beat of a different drummer regarding their designated place and awareness in life will meet with resistance. I find many dreams as attempts to recondition the sheep back into the fold and block directions of development.

Are you saying that all these people appear in your dreams as actual children, or that they appear in character and you associate their behaviour with childishness?

All these people are actors hired by the same company, so to speak, for the same reasons: to inhibit developmental potential. Some of these actors can be children, some adults. Childishness only pertains to the child characters.

These children may be a part of yourself trying to communicate with yourself. They may have been 'sent by the monks', but imo children generally do what they want, not what they're 'told' to do. You gotta understand that Lizzie control isn't infallible.... unless we are unaware of it.

Objectively speaking (to anyone but the dreamer) anything can be anything in a dream. So there is no rule that children do what they want. On the other hand, in this case what they wanted and what the "monks" wanted was the same. This is the same when an elder in a village sends a child on an errand, and the child goes without reluctance, especially when adults and children gang up against a stranger. In this case the errand was to spy on me and interfere with my accessing certain keys.

There was a science fiction movie called "The Arrival" with Charlie Sheen about aliens posing as humans. A child companion of the protagonist, one the protagonist trusted turned out to be an alien agent.

As to Lizzie control being infallible, that all depends on the depth of the subconscious one has reached in a dream. The deeper the layer, the less consciousness, the more control. It also depends on the area of self. There are some things the "lizzies" (or whatever) expend more effort in keeping from us, because they have more of an investment there, and because these areas provide keys to awakening that forces of resistance do not want us to have.

Can't make you do anything! You will do what you will do, with or without Lizzie interference.

"Lizzie" interference disrupts the perception flow and moves to undermine free will. So this interference can influence one's choices especially where transitions in development are involved. What you will do without interference can be different than what you will do with interference, otherwise interference would be ineffective and there wouldn't be an issue of "lizzies".

Transitions in one's state of being are instability boundaries where things can cloud easily until and if a new organization stabilizes, so they are areas of vulnerability to interference.

 

[Charles]

Hello EsoQuest,

From what you have written, I get the strong impression that a stark element in your dream is equilibrium, balance. I get this impression mostly because you seem to have a very good feel for position, up, down, left, right, the children on the other side of the street, and the monks at the end of the street. And even the elements like the sun and the moon reposition themselves, as you reposition yourself within the dreamscape. I doubt whether this element is as strongly present in all of your dreams. As such, this might be a clue. But there is more . . .

You felt that the monks had a "bad quality". They were like guards. They did not allow you to find or to remain in that place of equilibrium where pure magic happens. And they do this in a fully conscious way, premeditative. As such they could symbolize the left hemisphere. And, they can also stand symbolic for the fully conscious conspiracy that upholds the matrix, the prison so to say.

You went INTO the water which to me stands for unconditional love ... that proves to me that this dream was very deep. You decided to swim towards the place where the bridge went into the water. Here is a clear intent. What was the purpose? Have you been there before? That is if you were allowed a glimpse. The kids than came grabbing you. And you decided to bring them back to the shore. Was this because they were far too annoying, or to protect them from potential danger, or because you did not want to take them to that spot where bridge meets water?

You felt that those two kids had a "bad quality" as well. They too wanted to get you out of this place of equilibrium. But they were sent over by the monks. They do not do it in a premeditative way. It is their giggling, grinning, fighting, grabbing that hinders you to remain in that place/dream. In short, the way children are, not fully conscious of the effects of their actions, with no respons-ability, playful, spontaneous but pretty much unconscious. As such they could symbolize the right hemisphere. And, they can also stand symbolic for the fully unconscious part that upholds the matrix, the unawakened people, the masses. Close to that parable of lobsters caught in a basket. And every time a lobster was ready to get out of the basket, it was pulled back by the others trying to get out.

Also remember the relative position of the children and the monks in the street. Left and right ? Both hemispheres? I infer from what I read that you were closer to where the children were positioned. From that position you took a different turn and ended up at a place with a very big water and the ruin of an old city. Riding the rainbow serpent? with your attention almost within the corpus callosum, the bridge of love, with perfect synchronisation between both hemispheres?

That's all for now, I hope this has been of help. I will leave it up to you whether it is useful for inner work or as a warning in the outer world.

 

[Guest]

Thank's for your comments Charles. They are appreciated, and give be an opportunity to elaborate further.

From what you have written, I get the strong impression that a stark element in your dream is equilibrium, balance. I get this impression mostly because you seem to have a very good feel for position, up, down, left, right, the children on the other side of the street, and the monks at the end of the street. And even the elements like the sun and the moon reposition themselves, as you reposition yourself within the dreamscape. I doubt whether this element is as strongly present in all of your dreams. As such, this might be a clue.

You are correct in your observation. I would like to qualify it, furthermore, with the word that kept popping up for me even right after I woke: perspective. The repositioning was to gain the right perspective, to put everything in its right "place", as it were seems to be the key the dream implied. Once the elements and representations are viewed in the right way, they can be approached directly according to that perspective.

And you are right, this is the first time that the theme of perspective played such a strong role in my dreams (that I remember). I had a dream over 20 years ago, which started me on my quest in earnest so to speak, where I was at a pool party with beautiful women and a powerful host who wanted me to work for him. When I went in the water everyone turned into reptilian bat creatures and jumped on me trying to drag me under.

I threw them off and left that place, walking for what seemed to be a long time in a dark forest of pines in the night. Then I came to a beach that looked like a bay enclosed by two forested mountains. As I stood at the water's edge, I noticed a giant red sun that looked like it had just risen or was just about to set. The sun "spoke" in my head saying: "why settle for a measely swimming pool when the whole of the ocean awaits for you?"

Since then I have had a lot of dreams trying to cross water in boats, flying over it or swimming through it, and until now the water was filled with sharks, serpents, jellyfish and other creatures wishing to do me harm. This is the first time I had a clear message that the waters were ready to be crossed.

And, they can also stand symbolic for the fully conscious conspiracy that upholds the matrix, the prison so to say.

This is what I believe. They represented a doctrine of sacredness masking the truly sacred.

You went INTO the water which to me stands for unconditional love ... that proves to me that this dream was very deep.

Although the water had a color to it, I had the sense that it was VERY deep, even where I was.

The kids than came grabbing you. And you decided to bring them back to the shore. Was this because they were far too annoying, or to protect them from potential danger, or because you did not want to take them to that spot where bridge meets water?

They started reacting when I had already swam well beyond the bridge, which was the reference limit to them after which I should continue. The bridge broke off at one point in the water, and the bridge high above continued a bit longer. Now that you mention it, this leads me to believe that the bridge in the water was as far as experience could take the builders of it, and the one above the water went as far as theory (or vision) could take them.

I really turned back, not so much because I cared about the children, although this was a thought that seemed to grow stronger to closer I went to shore (and I now think it was implanted), but because they had no place in this journey, which could only happen as it should when it was uninterrupted. It was as if the "children" were a profane influence on the sacred.

You felt that those two kids had a "bad quality" as well. They too wanted to get you out of this place of equilibrium. But they were sent over by the monks. They do not do it in a premeditative way. It is their giggling, grinning, fighting, grabbing that hinders you to remain in that place/dream. In short, the way children are, not fully conscious of the effects of their actions, with no respons-ability, playful, spontaneous but pretty much unconscious.

Here is my thought on it: I sensed the monks were the children grown. The monks were trained in a certain doctrine, but even as children they were competitive and limited. Where I was with respect to seeing both of them was a crossroads. Not so much right and left, but the path to the children was at right angles to the path to the adults.

The children reaching that point would choose a path or belief system that reflected their nature, and they would have to train in it and organize their chaotic competitiveness into a hierarchical one (hence the turn in the road). Yet the trained adults could not stop me because it was the child in them, the root of their profane nature that was disturbed. And doctrines mean nothing in front of the sacred.

So if a person can only approach the sacred as they are, it is the child version (symbolizing not innocence but immaturity here) that could approach. It revealed to me the immature nature of those who support the Matrix, and that they are nothing more than squabbling children.

As such they represent the root motivations or underlying qualities of those that support the Matrix, beneath the trappings of training, doctrines and false maturity. Don't get me wrong. I love children and usually get along with them very well. But childhood innocence reacts differently than a child-psychopath when facing the sacred.

And these children reacted like an Antichrist child in a church (as shown in the movies of our Matrix). I don't think they were the masses, but two sides of the same coin of the child-self of those consciously supporting the Matrix.

Also remember the relative position of the children and the monks in the street. Left and right ? Both hemispheres? I infer from what I read that you were closer to where the children were positioned. From that position you took a different turn and ended up at a place with a very big water and the ruin of an old city. Riding the rainbow serpent?

I referred to my take on the relative positions between children and adults, and I wasn't closer to the children. In fact, I past that street and passed by the adults who just stared at me with false smiles. Then without realizing how, I found myself on a path winding through desert rocks and hills and ending up above the water. I followed this to water level, and there were trees lining the road on the side toward the water.

I was moving so fast, in fact that I remember watching the sun flashing through the passing trees. At the end of this path was the city which seemed to be carved out of a great rock (like a rock of Gibraltar) sloping down to the beach. When I had reached the path with the trees I noticed the children trying to keep up, and they reached me as I entered the water. I assumed the elders sent them because there seemed to be purpose other than simple curiosity behind their attitude.

It actually did seem like I was riding something. When I first saw the water, the sun was normally in the sky. Then I started moving very fast, as if I was flying. By the time I reached the trees and passed that part there was an empty stretch to the city where I noticed the sun on the water, and the moon next to it. As the road curved the position of the moon came in front of the sun. The moon, by the way, was also in the sky next to the sun when I first glimpsed it.

I think the dream reveals that I am gaining the right perspective in things, and that it advises that I need to take care of interfeering elements before I can proceed further.

This dream had a lot of detail that I could not contain all at once, which is one of the reasons I decided to post it. Your comments have helped me remember some of that detail, and have been useful. Thank's.

 

[Lucy]

I would say. Ruth, if I didn't know better, I would suspect you were trying to make me doubt myself...

Actually, EsoQuest, I have been observing, and conversing with, Ruth for a couple of years now...and the 'nature' of her response to your dream I find to be typical of her. I think, whether consciously or uncounsciously, she was trying to make you doubt yourself. IMO, she is often 'turned on' for this very reason, to derail and disrupt, especially in certain areas, and when the discussion is getting too close to the truth of the matter.

Notice how both her posts, (most obviously this one: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1375.msg7025#msg7025) were designed to distract you, and to lead the discussion down a certain path...to take you away from that which you have already determined to be relevent?

Being "selective" in her posts is 'business as usual' for Ruth, or so I think. By reviewing some of her other posts, especially those regarding Psychopathy and Organic Portals, one can get more 'tastes' of this behavior.

And then there is the 'flavor' of her 'defensive belligerance' in the way she chooses to respond to your comment here--

Of course, your interpertation bypasses all the other symbolism. Kind of a selective interpretation, I would say. Ruth, if I didn't know better, I would suspect you were trying to make me doubt myself...

Can't make you do anything! You will do what you will do, with or without Lizzie interference.

See what I mean?

I find the last sentence to be quite interresting, possibly more revealing than she intended.

In my opinion, Ruth has been presented with many opportunities to 'deal' with her 'buttons', and her subsequent 'behavior' when they have been 'pushed'...but apparently prefers to stick to 'business as usual'.

But, of course, these are just my thoughts on the matter, for what they are worth

 

[Ruth]

I would say. Ruth, if I didn't know better, I would suspect you were trying to make me doubt myself...

Actually, EsoQuest, I have been observing, and conversing with, Ruth for a couple of years now...and the 'nature' of her response to your dream I find to be typical of her. I think, whether consciously or uncounsciously, she was trying to make you doubt yourself. IMO, she is often 'turned on' for this very reason, to derail and disrupt, especially in certain areas, and when the discussion is getting too close to the truth of the matter.

Actually, I thought it was just a question of EsoQuest not liking my interpretation. If someone choses to be distracted or upset by a post they don't like (for whatever reason), then, I would say that's more their issue than mine. With a bit of luck, they'll find something or someone to say something they do find more agreeable, acceptable or appropriate. Sounds ok to me. That's how it normally goes.

Of course after the last little 'episode', I discovered a very 'neat' and predictable way I was having my buttons pushed. This occurs when the focus is moved from what I have to say, its validity or invalidity, and gets put on my character and/or so called behaviour which is, (or always has been) deemed 'a problem'. This means that anything I have to say or have said in the past, can now effectively be dismissed simply by making me the problem, rather than what was said. It used to work very well, but not so much now. The only control I have over it is how I react. I think I've learned something here.

Imo all people should doubt themselves. If they don't, then they are either compromised by or in serious danger from 4d sts. You can either take that as a warning to be careful or, if you like, an attempt to 'derail and disrupt', although, I'm not really sure what you mean by 'getting too close to the truth of the matter' really is. What is 'the truth of the matter'? I don't think I know.

 

[Cricket]

I am sorry but when I read your post Ruth, I also felt a will behind your words.

 

[Lucy]

I think the dream reveals that I am gaining the right perspective in things, and that it advises that I need to take care of interfeering elements before I can proceed further.

This seems right to me.

I'm also thinking that your dream may be assuring you that you're more Able to deal with interfering elements now.

In your dream you brought up the sharks in the water...

The water was also muddy, but I could see large dark shapes, so I wondered if they were sharks.

and...

I was set at ease about the sharks because even though the water was murky I could see a clear image of a dolphin deep below that seemed to communicate that all was well.

I see the sharks not just as predatorial, but as OP-like in a metaphorical way. To be constant mechanical feeders is their basic nature. They don't feed with malice, they feed because it is 'who and what they are'.

Just as we can't hate OP's for living up to their basic nature, we can't hate sharks for doing the same. And yet, both would seem to be our natural enemies.

Perhaps the dolphin was 'you in the future' letting you know "all was well" because you've now gained the ability to safely navigate the shark infested water.