Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering

cubbex

The Living Force
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Prometeo said:
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
The same is for me. Of course, it's not a matter of assigning blame, especially when one grew up in a dysfunctional family environment and had no choice. But when we do find out and learn about other ways of interacting with others and about approaching situations in a different way, we have a responsibility to make an effort and try them out. After all, it will be for our mutual benefit, and will make our life considerably easier and will less drama.
 

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Keit said:
Prometeo said:
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
The same is for me. Of course, it's not a matter of assigning blame, especially when one grew up in a dysfunctional family environment and had no choice. But when we do find out and learn about other ways of interacting with others and about approaching situations in a different way, we have a responsibility to make an effort and try them out. After all, it will be for our mutual benefit, and will make our life considerably easier and will less drama.

I had been thinking same lately, I had been thinking in the line of why do I get angry to/from situations/people … and mostly had been because I have a preconceive image of the outcome that do not match with reality.

I got angry, really angry hours previous my sister's wedding, (5th of October) I helped her with the Candy Bar, she did not want “professionals” make it because, she went to a couple of providers and they treated her as if they were making her a favor(??) So then, between both, arrange the Candy Bar, we went a month ago to make the order of cupcakes to a quite nice cupcakes place –she does earn far more than myself, paying for cupcakes the same money as I earn in a 15 days work … buff, between amazing and a gulp feeling. The day came, and while she was getting dressed, hair get done -an stylist came to our house, I was supposed to pick up the cupcakes at 12 noon, (the wedding was at night). Fortunately, the place was quite near, I called 10 minutes before the hour, and I even called the day before to assure the order, but the cupcakes were not ready, they told me to wait an hour. With that, my schedule of the day was messed up, passing the hour I called again and … they forgot the order!!??? … what?!! :scared:, at the end I went to pick up the cupcakes by 5:45 pm, already dressed, the religious ceremony, started at 7 pm, and I needed to do a couple of things before getting there. And the preeep&%/)&”!! cupcakes store gave me everything wrong, the cupcakes paper with bright rose and yellow colors!!! … they were supposed to be white as the order specify and the dough was wrong made, they were not firm, and I noticed too late … next day there were a lot of “I should had done”. At the party and after it, people were fascinated by the candybar, they liked it, no candy/cupcake was left even before the dinner end, the party was just getting started it.


But I didn't, seeing the rose and yellow colors of the cupcakes, in my mental image all (candy bar set) was wrong, I wanted the candybar be perfect for my sister's wedding, because she wanted a perfect wedding as all brides want, and being in her PMS-pre wedding like symptoms, I think in another time I pretty much could have send her to hell quite sooner, but fortunately I keep reminding myself that I was there to help. It was more my frustration than hers, at the religious wedding I needed to do some pipe breathing's in order to calm down, it was a difficult week. I realized that it was not the cupcakes, it was the perfect issue that comes with evaluation from other people that get me nervous, anxious and not be able to respond as people (I think) expect.


Yesterday, talking with a cousin about the wedding, what people say to him, he told me my mother was making criticisms and evaluations of my dress, and I think is the first time in my life that I pity her, perhaps I may be wrong, but not falling into her judgments, feels nice, lighter. Yes, there was a little issue with the dress, but I supposed, that since I was not paying attention too much to it because I was paying more attention on what my sister asked me to help her with (one thing being the candy bar), I did not care that much.
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
In this post, I thought I'd go in another direction, towards an aspect of the imprinting giving a tendency to split, which is not yet discussed in this thread. Apart from the many problems this kind of negative imprinting causes, I also think it might be one of several essential ingredients in the making of many a genuine seeker - many, but perhaps not all; perhaps some do without it.

Consider this:

A quote from Amazing Grace found in The Wave 5 & 6 said:
[...] a child [subject to negative imprinting] can grow up with a heavy sense of bitter disappointment and radical disillusionment with the Universe as a whole. They are often unable to accept self-limitations, disappointments, setbacks, failures, criticism or disillusionment with grace and tolerance. Their self-esteem is inconstant and negative. There is a tendency to believe everything that happens to them is the result of outside events, or that everything is their fault, in some way. In my own case, Larry took the former approach, and I took the latter! A child may think that if they only give more or do more, or find the flaw in themselves, they will be able to “fix everything.” Such a view is growth inducing. If they cannot tolerate the stress of the feeling of being wrong, they often choose a growth-denying mode of reversion to the narcissistic phase of infancy.
I think negative imprinting with the positive outcome seems to basically be what is described in the excerpt of "Varieties of Religious Experience", in The Wave book 1, chapter 8. The "morbid-mindedness" seems to describe the "radical disillusionment" combined with a sense of responsibility. Whereas most people - "healthy-minded" people - tend to shy away from seeing the "evils" of the world, the "morbid-minded" see them clearly, and have become disillusioned with life and the world. And combined with a sense of responsibility, this disillusionment leads towards wishing to change themselves.

The question is: Is this perhaps a necessary ingredient in development? Is there any other way for a person to be disillusioned and discontent to the point that they are driven to reach beyond the norm in a positive way? (I haven't read enough of Dabrowski yet to see how it might correspond with the overexcitabilities most important for Positive Disintegration. Emotional overexcitability may perhaps be connected to negative imprinting, but more input would be needed.)


Finally, which also connects the quote posted above with another subject, there are some for whom the imprinting may cause problems impossible to overcome. Returning to the quote, the latter part, "If they cannot tolerate the stress of the feeling of being wrong, they often choose a growth-denying mode of reversion to the narcissistic phase of infancy", seems common when it comes to Schizotypes. While possibly there are exceptions depending on degree and compensating factors, it seems a schizotype may be so wired that, if negatively imprinted, the "slippery" instinctive substratum simply cannot stand the heat of self-blame. Instead, splitting will not only result in projection, but cognitive slippage will enter in defense of any thoughts or beliefs that put blame on others, so as to keep the self blameless. The combination - splitting, narcissistic reversion, and schizotypy - makes for a kind of narcissism that a person is not only doomed to remain imprisoned within, but which, when challenged, can also result in psychological breakdowns.
 

Jasmine

Jedi
mabar said:
Keit said:
Prometeo said:
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
The same is for me. Of course, it's not a matter of assigning blame, especially when one grew up in a dysfunctional family environment and had no choice. But when we do find out and learn about other ways of interacting with others and about approaching situations in a different way, we have a responsibility to make an effort and try them out. After all, it will be for our mutual benefit, and will make our life considerably easier and will less drama.

I had been thinking same lately, I had been thinking in the line of why do I get angry to/from situations/people … and mostly had been because I have a preconceive image of the outcome that do not match with reality.

I got angry, really angry hours previous my sister's wedding, (5th of October) I helped her with the Candy Bar, she did not want “professionals” make it because, she went to a couple of providers and they treated her as if they were making her a favor(??) So then, between both, arrange the Candy Bar, we went a month ago to make the order of cupcakes to a quite nice cupcakes place –she does earn far more than myself, paying for cupcakes the same money as I earn in a 15 days work … buff, between amazing and a gulp feeling. The day came, and while she was getting dressed, hair get done -an stylist came to our house, I was supposed to pick up the cupcakes at 12 noon, (the wedding was at night). Fortunately, the place was quite near, I called 10 minutes before the hour, and I even called the day before to assure the order, but the cupcakes were not ready, they told me to wait an hour. With that, my schedule of the day was messed up, passing the hour I called again and … they forgot the order!!??? … what?!! :scared:, at the end I went to pick up the cupcakes by 5:45 pm, already dressed, the religious ceremony, started at 7 pm, and I needed to do a couple of things before getting there. And the preeep&%/)&”!! cupcakes store gave me everything wrong, the cupcakes paper with bright rose and yellow colors!!! … they were supposed to be white as the order specify and the dough was wrong made, they were not firm, and I noticed too late … next day there were a lot of “I should had done”. At the party and after it, people were fascinated by the candybar, they liked it, no candy/cupcake was left even before the dinner end, the party was just getting started it.


But I didn't, seeing the rose and yellow colors of the cupcakes, in my mental image all (candy bar set) was wrong, I wanted the candybar be perfect for my sister's wedding, because she wanted a perfect wedding as all brides want, and being in her PMS-pre wedding like symptoms, I think in another time I pretty much could have send her to hell quite sooner, but fortunately I keep reminding myself that I was there to help. It was more my frustration than hers, at the religious wedding I needed to do some pipe breathing's in order to calm down, it was a difficult week. I realized that it was not the cupcakes, it was the perfect issue that comes with evaluation from other people that get me nervous, anxious and not be able to respond as people (I think) expect.


Yesterday, talking with a cousin about the wedding, what people say to him, he told me my mother was making criticisms and evaluations of my dress, and I think is the first time in my life that I pity her, perhaps I may be wrong, but not falling into her judgments, feels nice, lighter. Yes, there was a little issue with the dress, but I supposed, that since I was not paying attention too much to it because I was paying more attention on what my sister asked me to help her with (one thing being the candy bar), I did not care that much.
Thank you mabar, I enjoyed hearing about your learning experience. Adversity can truly be a learning experience if we let it be. It sounded like you had a few "just let it go" moments and stood in your commitment to honor your sister with external consideration as your primary focus. I admire that. Most of all throughout the stressful events including your mothers negativity you took the whole event as a learning process. I admired how you learned about yourself and grew from that experience, and thank you for sharing it here on the forum! :)
 

SMM

The Living Force
mabar said:
Keit said:
Prometeo said:
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
The same is for me. Of course, it's not a matter of assigning blame, especially when one grew up in a dysfunctional family environment and had no choice. But when we do find out and learn about other ways of interacting with others and about approaching situations in a different way, we have a responsibility to make an effort and try them out. After all, it will be for our mutual benefit, and will make our life considerably easier and will less drama.

I had been thinking same lately, I had been thinking in the line of why do I get angry to/from situations/people … and mostly had been because I have a preconceive image of the outcome that do not match with reality.
A friend of mine & myself were discussing this yesterday. A kind of childish impetus perhaps everyone displays in their own unique way, whether repressed & the body makes the silent call or openly expressed, positively or negatively. Specifically it had to do with an impatient, competitive/comparative emotional itch that seems prevalent when something does not conform to one's particular conception formed (in the mind perhaps) & superimposed onto the future, or carried forth from the past (with a little investment in its actualisation) thereby altering our own intentionality & perception of how things are, subjective awareness aside.
Expecting its actualisation to occur immediately, something to conform with said preconceived image, as a way to relieve strain from (emotional) investment? Forgetting numerous other factors play a role in formulating an outcome?

Hence a form of mind-blindness (or simply put internal consideration)? Not being present, conscious, in the "now"?

So, breaking that idea down, say you thought that tomorrow your new car will be ready/arriving. You had plans in mind as a result of this information, it fitted into a stable or consistent image with other plans, such as picking up children from school or going to get some groceries etc. The people handling the car, for reasons unbeknownst to you, need more time working on it so car doesn't arrive as anticipated. The image of you driving from the grocery store or school no longer holds water. Depending on your level of attachment or investment, or level of inconvenience, you might be briefly set back, unwilling or unable to understand the predicament of said car dealers, your children for a period of time while your mentally shift gears (no pun intended) from having your day interrupted or having to make amendments.

You could laugh at yourself for having something seemingly insignificant irk you, sharing the story, possibly rescheduling a few things. You could carry the face of a rock until you're somewhere comfortable.

A mild example, exact examples from our talk evade me. Expectations of people, when you're used to them doing things then a routine is threatened, or expecting others to magically have the same preconceived image, intention or reaction as you (communication breakdown). An impetus finding no release, or being fuelled by defence mechanisms, may manifest as muscle spasms or a switch in mood whenever in a similar environment/condition.

We were talking hypothetically from examples - they can change depending on one's experiences or memory.

Keit, good points about not blaming, responsibility & approaching situations differently. Different approaches for different situations, changing as fit (easier said than done!)
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
Psalehesost said:
I think negative imprinting with the positive outcome seems to basically be what is described in the excerpt of "Varieties of Religious Experience", in The Wave book 1, chapter 8. The "morbid-mindedness" seems to describe the "radical disillusionment" combined with a sense of responsibility. Whereas most people - "healthy-minded" people - tend to shy away from seeing the "evils" of the world, the "morbid-minded" see them clearly, and have become disillusioned with life and the world. And combined with a sense of responsibility, this disillusionment leads towards wishing to change themselves.

The question is: Is this perhaps a necessary ingredient in development? Is there any other way for a person to be disillusioned and discontent to the point that they are driven to reach beyond the norm in a positive way? (I haven't read enough of Dabrowski yet to see how it might correspond with the overexcitabilities most important for Positive Disintegration. Emotional overexcitability may perhaps be connected to negative imprinting, but more input would be needed.)
The way I understand it, negative imprinting or morbid-mindedness are not necessary ingredients for development - they are more harmful than useful. If one is emotionally sensitive (has emotional over-excitability) then life experiences tend to have a bigger impact. If one does not wilt under the impact and is able to take responsibility and control the responses over time, positive growth is possible. Negative imprinting is harmful as it produces an intrinsic negative bias towards viewing reality and hampers growth of being. It takes a certain strength of being to get disillusioned and disintegrated and then reintegrate at a higher level. Positive imprinting at an early age would make this struggle easier - or so I think at present.

[quote author=Psalehesost]
Finally, which also connects the quote posted above with another subject, there are some for whom the imprinting may cause problems impossible to overcome. Returning to the quote, the latter part, "If they cannot tolerate the stress of the feeling of being wrong, they often choose a growth-denying mode of reversion to the narcissistic phase of infancy", seems common when it comes to Schizotypes. While possibly there are exceptions depending on degree and compensating factors, it seems a schizotype may be so wired that, if negatively imprinted, the "slippery" instinctive substratum simply cannot stand the heat of self-blame. Instead, splitting will not only result in projection, but cognitive slippage will enter in defense of any thoughts or beliefs that put blame on others, so as to keep the self blameless. The combination - splitting, narcissistic reversion, and schizotypy - makes for a kind of narcissism that a person is not only doomed to remain imprisoned within, but which, when challenged, can also result in psychological breakdowns.
[/quote]

It may depend on a lot of factors other than schizotypy which includes other genetic endowments as well as environmental conditioning. What you say could perhaps be valid for cases where there is a rich genetic endowment giving a relatively high potential for development along with schizotypy - like people having shamanic potential for example. I do not know if shamanic potential can include inherited schizotypy - or if bad diet and environmental conditioning causes schizotypic symptoms for people with such potential.
Where schizotypy is present without concomitant factors which facilitate positive development, the cognitive slippage and distortion of reality are likely to be more fundamental and neurological than behavioral defense mechanisms. Schizoidal psychopathy is an example where schizotypy exists with strong power drive and pathological egotism. Schizoidal psychopaths do not distort reality as a defense mechanism. They could show splitting but such splitting cannot be subject to self-reflection - i.e the hardware may not be there to realize that splitting is taking place.

My understanding of defense mechanism is that in the human context, it should involve actions to ward off feelings of shame or guilt. Freudian theory stresses on the the anxiety aspect in relation to defense mechanisms and assumes that such anxiety arises from feelings of shame or guilt. While there is anxiety in schizoidal psychopathy, I do not think it arises from any sense of shame or guilt. Rather it is more likely to be the anxiety about losing his food - which may be power and fame for the narcissistic schizotype.

From a psychopathology standpoint, paranoid characters ( link ) and those with borderline (bpd) traits ( link ) caused by negative imprinting from being raised by people with serious pathologies is perhaps closer to the description of ego defense mechanisms and splitting that you provided.
OSIT
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
Regarding "morbid-mindedness" and development, that makes sense. Thanks, obyvatel, for that input, and also for clearing up the confusion in the latter part. It seems I didn't properly integrate the new information on schizotypy with all the pre-exisiting knowledge, and that I have plenty more reading-up and putting it all together to do.
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
obyvatel said:
Psalehesost said:
The question is: Is this perhaps a necessary ingredient in development? Is there any other way for a person to be disillusioned and discontent to the point that they are driven to reach beyond the norm in a positive way? (I haven't read enough of Dabrowski yet to see how it might correspond with the overexcitabilities most important for Positive Disintegration. Emotional overexcitability may perhaps be connected to negative imprinting, but more input would be needed.)
The way I understand it, negative imprinting or morbid-mindedness are not necessary ingredients for development - they are more harmful than useful. If one is emotionally sensitive (has emotional over-excitability) then life experiences tend to have a bigger impact. If one does not wilt under the impact and is able to take responsibility and control the responses over time, positive growth is possible. Negative imprinting is harmful as it produces an intrinsic negative bias towards viewing reality and hampers growth of being. It takes a certain strength of being to get disillusioned and disintegrated and then reintegrate at a higher level. Positive imprinting at an early age would make this struggle easier - or so I think at present.
I share this view. If you look at the basic immature defence mechanisms people organically develop by default (like idealization, fantasy, wishful thinking), they often allow a person to see that reality is not quite how they perceive it, providing they pay a little more attention (chance illuminating moments or shocks can be a part of this). These can help to create micro-tears in one's world-view that can allow opportunities for minor, controlled disintegrations and reintegrations. Like training wheels, almost. Traumatic events always carry with them the risk of over-taxing the coping mechanisms to the point of reverting into more neurotic and maladaptive strategies to protect the ego-structure.
 

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Jasmine said:
Thank you mabar, I enjoyed hearing about your learning experience. Adversity can truly be a learning experience if we let it be. It sounded like you had a few "just let it go" moments and stood in your commitment to honor your sister with external consideration as your primary focus. I admire that. Most of all throughout the stressful events including your mothers negativity you took the whole event as a learning process. I admired how you learned about yourself and grew from that experience, and thank you for sharing it here on the forum! :)
Thanks to you, reading that I am learning helps for idea/concept sinking in my physique? -I think ... I tend/use to/in trying to modify it my well too crystallized? negative interjection, it changes perspective simple words: learning (changeable) vs mistakes/errors/should haves (unchangeable), and thanks to other members from this thread that is helping me to understand issues.
 

cubbex

The Living Force
Keit said:
Prometeo said:
The more I think about this thread, the more I learn and think that I've been the source of my problems with other people, the one that has been wrong in a lots of situations.
The same is for me. Of course, it's not a matter of assigning blame, especially when one grew up in a dysfunctional family environment and had no choice. But when we do find out and learn about other ways of interacting with others and about approaching situations in a different way, we have a responsibility to make an effort and try them out. After all, it will be for our mutual benefit, and will make our life considerably easier and will less drama.
Is not about blame, more like thinking others were attacking you and realize that it's more complex than who's right and wrong, but social dynamics were people participate in, without full consciousness of their roles in the actual conflict.

We can reduce the drama, though as the brain is the bag that hold us to earth, sometimes feelings can't be evaded.
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Laura said:
So we see that dealing with one's own tendency to split, see things as either black or white, is crucial to working on the self. You can never effectively practice External Considering if you can't master your own splitting as is clear from the following passage from ISOTM which deals first with identification and internal considering which seems to me to be just another way to describe splitting:
Yes, when I was reading about the concept of splitting, I thought it sounded A LOT like black and white thinking. And, I thought how easy it would be for the 'powers that be' to take advantage of some people's predisposition to do that, in order to control them. Using the media as a controlled tool with it's propensity to emphasise certain things and distract or fail to mention, other things. I'm constantly struck by how easy it is for them to do this, as if some percentage of the population doesn't want to look deeper and are constantly hostile to those that do.

I don't think this can be changed any more than I think people with personality disorders can be 'cured'. They simply don't WANT to engage in the process of integrating their splits or seeing the world in a more complex manner as this would reflect badly on them.
 
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