Session 7 September 2013

marek760 said:
Prometeo said:
Leòmhann said:



Caesar was like the batman of Rome.

Caesar was a great leader and a genius but not like batman , batman do not kill innocent people,
he was responsible for the deaths of more than a million people in the Gallic War. Caesar is said to have defeated 3 million men, killed a third of them, and sold another third into slavery,
horrific episode is the cutting off of the hands of the men of the Gaulish town of Uxellodunum (modern Dordogne). Caesar, desperate to quell ongoing Gaulish rebellion, conquered the town (belonging to the Cadurci tribe) and ordered that all who had borne arms were to have both hands cut off. He did this after the men had surrendered to him. He spared their lives and mulitlated them in order to send a message to other rebellious Gauls. In other episodes, women and children were slaughtered at Avaricum by the soldiers of Caesar and more massacres took place at Usipetes and Tencteri during the Gaulish war.

Hehe, calm down it was just a joke :P

I won't comment about Caesar because I'm not sure of being informed by a reliable source. Anyways, my joke intended to portray that Caesar had the money and the power, and used it to help people or way or the other, without the needed powers of a messiah like a Jesus character, everything was from human potential.
 
marek760 said:
I am aware of my ignorance,
but i dont see Cesar as a good man
That someone be "good" or "bad" is a subjective form of appreciating, and you always have to analyze the context, for greater recognition of what is happening. Would be curious if you're valuing Caesar from some remnant of Christian morality, since you would be measuring Caesar opposite a man-god myth wich is probably founded in Caesar himself. This could be an example of how the unreal or fictionalized can make us not to value right the natural lifes and historical acts.
 
l apprenti de forgeron said:
marek760 said:
I am aware of my ignorance,
but i dont see Cesar as a good man
That someone be "good" or "bad" is a subjective form of appreciating, and you always have to analyze the context, for greater recognition of what is happening. Would be curious if you're valuing Caesar from some remnant of Christian morality, since you would be measuring Caesar opposite a man-god myth wich is probably founded in Caesar himself. This could be an example of how the unreal or fictionalized can make us not to value right the natural lifes and historical acts.

Exactly. One of my heroes is David Ray Griffin. I've read over a dozen of his books, on both 911 and philosophy and theology. He's a Christian, but even that is misleading. In his book "Two Great Truths: A New Synthesis of Scientific Naturalism and Christian Faith", he outlines what he thinks is the core of the Christian Faith, excluding what he calls 'secondary' and 'tertiary' doctrines (false beliefs). As one of his primary doctrines (on the nature of "Jesus") he says this:

We can understand Jesus as one in whom God was incarnate in such a way that it is appropriate for us to apprehend Jesus as a decisive revelation of God's character, purpose, and mode of operation.

This sentence is prefaced by these remarks:

First, God always presents initial aims toward the best possibilities open to the individual, given its past history and present situation. These initial aims constitute, therefore, prevenient grace [i.e., divine grace that precedes human decision making]. Second, the best possibilities for different individuals can differ radically. For example, the best possibilities for a human being differ radically from the best possibilities for electrons or mice; the best possibilities for Christians in Grand Rapids differ greatly from the best possibilities open to Hindus in Bombay; the best possibilities for a person who has responded positively to the divine persuasion all his or her life will differ radically from the best possibilities for someone who has consistently resisted the divine persuasion. The nature of the divine aims and therefore the prevenient grace for different individuals will, therefore, differ radically. Third, the aims for some individuals will reflect the general divine aim more directly than the aims for other individuals. ...

There's some stuff in there that probably won't make much sense without a wider understanding of Griffin and Whitehead's philosophy, but I think the point is clear enough. The way I would say it, some people have a clearer connection to, or reception of, the universe's inherent goals (or telos), which are really the goals of Cosmic Mind, the 'direction' to which the universe is biased, as in example, the evolutionary bias towards complexity of form and consciousness. Depending on their unique situation (i.e., the law of three here), the manifestation of these goals can take very different forms. So if we accept Griffin's 'Christian principle' that Jesus was an exemplar, a decisive embodiment of Cosmic Mind's goals for the cosmos, and if Jesus was Caesar, I think it still works. Caesar worked and exemplified ideals of justice, goodness, and love to the best degree possible given the conditions in which he lived.

I think we have to get over our image of the 'sage' or 'saint'. It's better, IMO, to ask, "What would an exemplar of human-potential-actualized look like if he or she was a general? a politician? a lawyer?" Another question that comes to mind for me is this: "Can such an exemplar really lead a life limited to a small sphere of social interaction, or might such an individual necessarily need to be prominent in the lives of many?" In other words, in order to really exemplify the 'best possibilities' available (and presumably that would include making as big of an influence on the world as possible, thus presenting things like justice and truth as new possibilities to those who previously had been denied them), might that not require a set of conditions resembling those of Caesar? That is, he was born in a Patrician family, yet lived in the slums. He had the potential for advancing to the highest levels of influence and in Roman life, yet had childhood experiences that exposed him to the reality of life for the 'others'. The way was open for him to literally change the world, to introduce things like justice, clemency, beauty, and truth.

If the premises above are true, then by studying a man like Caesar we can learn something of Cosmic Mind's "character, purpose, and mode of operation." How does it operate? By presenting possibilities to those with the ability to recognize them and act on them, and in turn present them to others who may lack the clarity of mind. And those possibilities have to do with truth and goodness, an ever-expanding sphere of value, justice, maturity of mind, integrity, forward thinking, etc.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
l apprenti de forgeron said:
marek760 said:
I am aware of my ignorance,
but i dont see Cesar as a good man
That someone be "good" or "bad" is a subjective form of appreciating, and you always have to analyze the context, for greater recognition of what is happening. Would be curious if you're valuing Caesar from some remnant of Christian morality, since you would be measuring Caesar opposite a man-god myth wich is probably founded in Caesar himself. This could be an example of how the unreal or fictionalized can make us not to value right the natural lifes and historical acts.

Exactly. One of my heroes is David Ray Griffin. I've read over a dozen of his books, on both 911 and philosophy and theology. He's a Christian, but even that is misleading. In his book "Two Great Truths: A New Synthesis of Scientific Naturalism and Christian Faith", he outlines what he thinks is the core of the Christian Faith, excluding what he calls 'secondary' and 'tertiary' doctrines (false beliefs). As one of his primary doctrines (on the nature of "Jesus") he says this:

We can understand Jesus as one in whom God was incarnate in such a way that it is appropriate for us to apprehend Jesus as a decisive revelation of God's character, purpose, and mode of operation.

This sentence is prefaced by these remarks:

First, God always presents initial aims toward the best possibilities open to the individual, given its past history and present situation. These initial aims constitute, therefore, prevenient grace [i.e., divine grace that precedes human decision making]. Second, the best possibilities for different individuals can differ radically. For example, the best possibilities for a human being differ radically from the best possibilities for electrons or mice; the best possibilities for Christians in Grand Rapids differ greatly from the best possibilities open to Hindus in Bombay; the best possibilities for a person who has responded positively to the divine persuasion all his or her life will differ radically from the best possibilities for someone who has consistently resisted the divine persuasion. The nature of the divine aims and therefore the prevenient grace for different individuals will, therefore, differ radically. Third, the aims for some individuals will reflect the general divine aim more directly than the aims for other individuals. ...

There's some stuff in there that probably won't make much sense without a wider understanding of Griffin and Whitehead's philosophy, but I think the point is clear enough. The way I would say it, some people have a clearer connection to, or reception of, the universe's inherent goals (or telos), which are really the goals of Cosmic Mind, the 'direction' to which the universe is biased, as in example, the evolutionary bias towards complexity of form and consciousness. Depending on their unique situation (i.e., the law of three here), the manifestation of these goals can take very different forms. So if we accept Griffin's 'Christian principle' that Jesus was an exemplar, a decisive embodiment of Cosmic Mind's goals for the cosmos, and if Jesus was Caesar, I think it still works. Caesar worked and exemplified ideals of justice, goodness, and love to the best degree possible given the conditions in which he lived.

I think we have to get over our image of the 'sage' or 'saint'. It's better, IMO, to ask, "What would an exemplar of human-potential-actualized look like if he or she was a general? a politician? a lawyer?" Another question that comes to mind for me is this: "Can such an exemplar really lead a life limited to a small sphere of social interaction, or might such an individual necessarily need to be prominent in the lives of many?" In other words, in order to really exemplify the 'best possibilities' available (and presumably that would include making as big of an influence on the world as possible, thus presenting things like justice and truth as new possibilities to those who previously had been denied them), might that not require a set of conditions resembling those of Caesar? That is, he was born in a Patrician family, yet lived in the slums. He had the potential for advancing to the highest levels of influence and in Roman life, yet had childhood experiences that exposed him to the reality of life for the 'others'. The way was open for him to literally change the world, to introduce things like justice, clemency, beauty, and truth.

If the premises above are true, then by studying a man like Caesar we can learn something of Cosmic Mind's "character, purpose, and mode of operation." How does it operate? By presenting possibilities to those with the ability to recognize them and act on them, and in turn present them to others who may lack the clarity of mind. And those possibilities have to do with truth and goodness, an ever-expanding sphere of value, justice, maturity of mind, integrity, forward thinking, etc.

Thanks for this post, it resonated well with me. The quotes from David Ray Griffin were pretty clear too. It all ties back to what we've discovered about Cesar, & the era is all important so looking as objectively as possible, there really shouldn't be an issue of him being "bad" or "good." He did what he could when he could with the resources he had, to do more/better, more resources & options would be required so he didn't allow things to happen, he made them happen. He used his experiences & learned from them, maximized his skills to use for the benefit of others. In double quick time too.
 
I agree AI with the perspective of how to look at Caesar you proposed. (And I really thought Griffin's book on Whitehead's philosophy was great).

One other thing to keep in mind is that Caesar was genuinely loved by the people and hated by the elite who assassinated him. That should say something about who he was and what he was doing.
 
It seems plausible to me that Caesar thought along the lines of "if you play in the dirt, you're gonna get dirty" when he looked at the world around him.
 
It seems plausible to me that Caesar thought along the lines of "if you play in the dirt, you're gonna get dirty" when he looked at the world around him.

He also got "dirty". Everybody got s "dirty" when playing politics.
 
Corvinus said:
It seems plausible to me that Caesar thought along the lines of "if you play in the dirt, you're gonna get dirty" when he looked at the world around him.

He also got "dirty". Everybody got s "dirty" when playing politics.

Here's a relevant quote from Dag Hammarksjold (whom Kennedy called the greatest statesman of the century):

Politics and diplomacy are no play of will and skill where results are independent of the character of those engaging in the game. Results are determined not by superficial ability but by the consistency of the actors in their efforts and by the validity of their ideals. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, there is no intellectual activity which more ruthlessly tests the solidity of a man than politics. Apparently easy successes with the public are possible for a juggler, but lasting results are achieved only by the patient builder. …In politics the results of the work of the most brilliant mind will ultimately find their value determined by character. Those who are called to be teachers or leaders may profit from intelligence but can only justify their position by integrity.
 
Ancient Confession Found: ‘We Invented Jesus Christ’
Biblical scholars will be appearing at the ‘Covert Messiah’ Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.
Wed Oct 09 2013 21:05:02 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled “Covert Messiah” at Conway Hall in Holborn

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm
 
hlat said:
Ancient Confession Found: ‘We Invented Jesus Christ’
Biblical scholars will be appearing at the ‘Covert Messiah’ Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.
Wed Oct 09 2013 21:05:02 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled “Covert Messiah” at Conway Hall in Holborn

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

It seems to me that Joseph Atwill throws out the baby with the bathwater, claiming that the story of Jesus was completely invented and has no historical person ever existed that was the origin of it all. Which is only half true at best. I haven't seen his film or read his book but I understand that's basically what he's claiming.
 
Q: (L) Well, I guess we don't need anything further on that, do we? (PoB) What about the possible connection between being homosexual and having something "hardwired" in this situation? (L) Well, we previously asked a number of questions about the various causes of homosexuality. There were several reasons given. Is {name redacted}'s particular situation in respect of her narcissism and infantile internal state due to the fact that she's homosexual? Or maybe a better way to say it: Is there a correlation between the two? In other words, she is homosexual and also has this infantile inner nature for the same foundational reason?

Highly possible, this {name redacted} is {name redacted}.

Defer to the board regarding the individual.

Consider that those around the board, may be influencing the communication.

This is an observation.


Mod: {name redacted}
 
Hi yamez,
There is a reason why names are redacted, mostly for privacy protection. The most basic decency and respect towards fellow human beings is to respect their privacy.
 
"Hi yamez, There is a reason why names are redacted, mostly for privacy protection. The most basic decency and respect towards fellow human beings is to respect their privacy."

Firing brain cells have respected the truth. So discuss the truth and censor the name in question is transparency?

Ignored in this narrative,

"Defer to the board regarding the individual.

Consider that those around the board, may be influencing the communication.

This is an observation."
 
mkrnhr said:
Hi yamez,
There is a reason why names are redacted, mostly for privacy protection. The most basic decency and respect towards fellow human beings is to respect their privacy.

The above communication from mkrnhr is clear, easy to understand, seems to stand alone on its on its own as an agreeable convention and custom in both modern and more tribal societies. More than this, though, for the purposes of this forum, it stands as a value to both respect and practice, especially with regard to its being consistent with the protective shelter of strategic enclosure and the honoring of another re: external considering: "...external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood."

yamez said:
Firing brain cells have respected the truth. So discuss the truth and censor the name in question is transparency?

Ignored in this narrative,

"Defer to the board regarding the individual.

Consider that those around the board, may be influencing the communication.

This is an observation."

In contrast, not only did you not practice external considering in your last post by revealing what you believed to be the name of the individual for whom his/her name was redacted from the session transcript, but you are continuing to display what, from my view, looks to be internal considering by posting cryptic comments that are not clear and easy to understand.

Could you therefore, yamez, if you aspire toward external consideration of us, your fellow forum members, clarify what you have shared here with a further detailed explanation of what you mean/intend?
 
User yamez is no more a member of this forum. May he find a place more suitable to its nature.
 
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