Session 29 August 2015

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
WIN 52 said:
(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

This exercising your focusing power can be done in other ways also, it seems.

Martial Arts warm up exercises where you lay on the ground and raise your heels six inches of the ground. You then try to hold the position for as long as possible. It is possible to hold the position indefinitely!

There comes a point when there are many little I's telling you that you can't do it. You really need to focus on the task at hand. The reward is worth the effort.

That's actually not the same thing. The idea of focusing that I was describing is designed to engage your conscious mind away and keep it busy while the subconscious is allowed to "rise".
 

Mandrak

Jedi
Laura said:
WIN 52 said:
(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

This exercising your focusing power can be done in other ways also, it seems.

Martial Arts warm up exercises where you lay on the ground and raise your heels six inches of the ground. You then try to hold the position for as long as possible. It is possible to hold the position indefinitely!

There comes a point when there are many little I's telling you that you can't do it. You really need to focus on the task at hand. The reward is worth the effort.

That's actually not the same thing. The idea of focusing that I was describing is designed to engage your conscious mind away and keep it busy while the subconscious is allowed to "rise".

Well, it could be the meaning of the mantra and so much emphasis on the mantra and the like. Maybe especially emphasized in Hinduism, but the repetition of words and prayer exists in Christianity and Islam as well, also with chaplet (prayer beads, rosary) . I've never understood the meaning of it, but now perhaps beginning to understand. I dealt with that before. I stopped believing in the sanctity of words. But if I began to understand the mechanism precisely, I may still back to it. Very interesting.

"Prayer beads are used by members of various religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith to mark the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions, such as the rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Catholicism, and dhikr (remembrance of God) in Islam."
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_beads
 

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Oxajil said:
If having an alarm is helpful in the case that you can only spend a certain time meditating, I think it's okay to use one. I use one too, and gradually I kind of get to know when the time is almost done. But if you prefer not to use one and meditate until you think it's enough, that's fine as well. :)
I am confused with the "until you think it's enough", because I/me think is enough, but it seems to be not the "conscious" I, "I" finished/came from zoned "dimension" just in time, it had happend with the traditional tape EE meditation, but I do not feel is me, actually. I use to think that is the higher self that take that decision, but do not know, not certainly, thinking about my confusion, I may be wrong.

When you think is enough, you think is you? ... it just that I feel it differently, but cannot explain the sensation, though.

I thought to set an alarm clock thinking that this new mediation is/was going to be larger, nowadays I am involved in more activities after work; I did it yesterday -striking back thoughts- most of the time, I had a worrisome issue and that, had an influence, that was resolved today, thankfully.

Thanks.

lilies said:
Apparently meditation improves memory as well. I didn't say Our Father in Latin for possibly four or more years (it always had the strongest effect on me before POTS) and naturally forgot lots of words and phrases from it. During recent meditations, as I tried to recite each phrase from some deep memory, concentrating on the meaning of words, Gurdjieff-style, the whole prayer came back in two nights. Also their meaning. Then I started to remember the additional fitting English "notes" for each phrase, Malachi Martin gave in his writings and shows. He elaborated, expanded and emphasized the meaning of certain lines. He also gave precise instructions what to say, if one thinks being possessed (its sort of an exorcism-mantra). Then with the advent of EE the term possession received a new meaning: how all those low-level spiritual parasites, entities are infesting our bodies and how EE helps get rid of them, one by one.

So to improve the technique somewhat and create another one of G's alarm-clocks, I'm thinking on finding a tape recording on the Lords Prayer, so I can correctly pronounce Latin words. IIRC, Gurdjieff, Malachi Martin and George Carlin emphasized the power of spoken word, how prayers must be spoken aloud, because they carry spiritual power. (Martin)

Thanks lilies, your experience is interesting, I had been thinking in "Our Father" pray. It's been years that I had not say it, but while reading your post combined with below, it made certain Aha moment, did not understood through the years, until now. Not that I can say "Our Father" again. I was lacking comprehension. Thanks others as well.

Mandrak said:
Laura said:
WIN 52 said:
(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

This exercising your focusing power can be done in other ways also, it seems.

Martial Arts warm up exercises where you lay on the ground and raise your heels six inches of the ground. You then try to hold the position for as long as possible. It is possible to hold the position indefinitely!

There comes a point when there are many little I's telling you that you can't do it. You really need to focus on the task at hand. The reward is worth the effort.

That's actually not the same thing. The idea of focusing that I was describing is designed to engage your conscious mind away and keep it busy while the subconscious is allowed to "rise".

Well, it could be the meaning of the mantra and so much emphasis on the mantra and the like. Maybe especially emphasized in Hinduism, but the repetition of words and prayer exists in Christianity and Islam as well, also with chaplet (prayer beads, rosary) . I've never understood the meaning of it, but now perhaps beginning to understand. I dealt with that before. I stopped believing in the sanctity of words. But if I began to understand the mechanism precisely, I may still back to it. Very interesting.

"Prayer beads are used by members of various religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith to mark the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions, such as the rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Catholicism, and dhikr (remembrance of God) in Islam."
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_beads

sitting said:
lilies said:
Strangely, saying the phrases with intent and focusing on the meaning, taking my wandering mind back on to target, it feels that this new practice positively reinforces my aim and work during the day, giving energy, momentum and certainty to my efforts. I hope my subconscious will now be aligned with the conscious, so the two strong parts will want the same thing to be accomplished.

Hi lilies,

I admire the elegant (and precise) expression of your thoughts. Your feelings reflect a good deal of my own attitudes on this subject. I like to suggest perhaps one small alteration if I may. And it is this:

"I hope my conscious will now be aligned with the subconscious"

It's an important difference I think.

Just like a corollary ... I hope my conscious, subconscious and unconscious will be aligned someday. :)
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Mandrak said:
Laura said:
WIN 52 said:
(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

This exercising your focusing power can be done in other ways also, it seems.

Martial Arts warm up exercises where you lay on the ground and raise your heels six inches of the ground. You then try to hold the position for as long as possible. It is possible to hold the position indefinitely!

There comes a point when there are many little I's telling you that you can't do it. You really need to focus on the task at hand. The reward is worth the effort.

That's actually not the same thing. The idea of focusing that I was describing is designed to engage your conscious mind away and keep it busy while the subconscious is allowed to "rise".

Well, it could be the meaning of the mantra and so much emphasis on the mantra and the like. Maybe especially emphasized in Hinduism, but the repetition of words and prayer exists in Christianity and Islam as well, also with chaplet (prayer beads, rosary) . I've never understood the meaning of it, but now perhaps beginning to understand. I dealt with that before. I stopped believing in the sanctity of words. But if I began to understand the mechanism precisely, I may still back to it. Very interesting.

"Prayer beads are used by members of various religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith to mark the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions, such as the rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Catholicism, and dhikr (remembrance of God) in Islam."
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_beads

Mandrak,

I think you too may be missing Laura's explication. I don't think it is about how many repetitions we do but the quality of our meditation. The Prayer of the Soul (POTS) and EE were a just a starting point or "foundation" for meditation suggested. Now with Laura's session questions we have a refinement being suggested.

Q: (Perceval) When they said they'd benefit from regular meditative practice, would some version of EE and the Prayer of the Soul be enough, or something more specific?

A: The EE program can be used as a foundation, but straight meditation with seed is more along the line intended here. All of them need to learn to discipline the mind.

Q: (L) So, a seed would be like having a short phrase to meditate on, or...

(Chu) Or just the Prayer of the Soul?

(L) Well, the Prayer of the Soul might be too complex. I think they need something a little more tight... a short phrase. The Prayer of the Soul really helps you in a lot of ways, but...

So it is not even the length of the "seed" that is being stressed but the quality or meaning of the seed. And I think Laura is trying to make it more clear that when you finally are able to focus on the "seed" of the meditation your subconscious thought will be allowed to rise. I don't think this as easy as it sounds.

And the EE breathing is an important part of the meditation as well. FWIW
 

WIN 52

The Living Force
Yes Laura, that is what I was talking about, if done properly, the subconscious mind does rise, big time! At least that was my experience in 1980. And it nearly killed me as I am assuming that the event didn't go unnoticed, somewhere.

And so, Mandrak, I was also thinking about the very same thing. It seems that a person would be better focusing on some thing that has specific meaning. My mother was a devout Catholic and the rosary meant a great deal to her. I kind of think it was more like her will/intent that carried the most weight, not the actual wording of the phrase. For me, the rosary means nothing. I also tried with the Lord's prayer and was having objections to the wording. Then I chose a short phrase, like I did in 1980, that means something to me, like in 1980 I repeated "I think I can" over and over till something washed over my whole body, then I could have held my legs up for days, a supernatural experience. The short phrase works well for quieting the mind.

Well goyacobol, I did breathing in 1980 and work with it now. It is important. In 1980, my mind was going wild to drop my feet. The short phrase and the breathing got me through that.
 

Oxajil

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
mabar said:
I am confused with the "until you think it's enough", because I/me think is enough, but it seems to be not the "conscious" I, "I" finished/came from zoned "dimension" just in time, it had happend with the traditional tape EE meditation, but I do not feel is me, actually. I use to think that is the higher self that take that decision, but do not know, not certainly, thinking about my confusion, I may be wrong.

When you think is enough, you think is you? ... it just that I feel it differently, but cannot explain the sensation, though.

I thought to set an alarm clock thinking that this new mediation is/was going to be larger, nowadays I am involved in more activities after work; I did it yesterday -striking back thoughts- most of the time, I had a worrisome issue and that, had an influence, that was resolved today, thankfully.

Thanks.

Good to know that the issue you had was resolved. :)

And yea, it could be your higher self, it's difficult to know. I'd think the most important thing is that you do it as long as it is comfortable for you, which may differ at times, or change as you continue practicing. Or you can decide to do the seed meditation for a certain number of counts, each in- and out-breath together being one count while you concentrate on the seed. Fwiw.
 

Mandrak

Jedi
goyacobol said:
Mandrak said:
Laura said:
WIN 52 said:
(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

This exercising your focusing power can be done in other ways also, it seems.

Martial Arts warm up exercises where you lay on the ground and raise your heels six inches of the ground. You then try to hold the position for as long as possible. It is possible to hold the position indefinitely!

There comes a point when there are many little I's telling you that you can't do it. You really need to focus on the task at hand. The reward is worth the effort.

That's actually not the same thing. The idea of focusing that I was describing is designed to engage your conscious mind away and keep it busy while the subconscious is allowed to "rise".

Well, it could be the meaning of the mantra and so much emphasis on the mantra and the like. Maybe especially emphasized in Hinduism, but the repetition of words and prayer exists in Christianity and Islam as well, also with chaplet (prayer beads, rosary) . I've never understood the meaning of it, but now perhaps beginning to understand. I dealt with that before. I stopped believing in the sanctity of words. But if I began to understand the mechanism precisely, I may still back to it. Very interesting.

"Prayer beads are used by members of various religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith to mark the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions, such as the rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Catholicism, and dhikr (remembrance of God) in Islam."
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_beads

Mandrak,

I think you too may be missing Laura's explication. I don't think it is about how many repetitions we do but the quality of our meditation. The Prayer of the Soul (POTS) and EE were a just a starting point or "foundation" for meditation suggested. Now with Laura's session questions we have a refinement being suggested.

Q: (Perceval) When they said they'd benefit from regular meditative practice, would some version of EE and the Prayer of the Soul be enough, or something more specific?

A: The EE program can be used as a foundation, but straight meditation with seed is more along the line intended here. All of them need to learn to discipline the mind.

Q: (L) So, a seed would be like having a short phrase to meditate on, or...

(Chu) Or just the Prayer of the Soul?

(L) Well, the Prayer of the Soul might be too complex. I think they need something a little more tight... a short phrase. The Prayer of the Soul really helps you in a lot of ways, but...

So it is not even the length of the "seed" that is being stressed but the quality or meaning of the seed. And I think Laura is trying to make it more clear that when you finally are able to focus on the "seed" of the meditation your subconscious thought will be allowed to rise. I don't think this as easy as it sounds.

And the EE breathing is an important part of the meditation as well. FWIW

I certainly misunderstood, because just starting to understand. I wanted to say that many religions have this similarity. Surely not for nothing highlighted. But I did not understand the meaning. The quality is definitely ahead of quantity. But sometimes it takes a lot of effort, errors, in order to achieve quality. So quantity maybe precedes to quality. And sometimes it is necessary to give time to subconscious to manifest itself. The use of beads, for example, helps the discipline process and increase the concentration on the activity. And there is a certain frame (to have less loafing). But that's not the point, it is only a supplement. The quantity can be reduced by increasing the quality, because over time some activities, rituals, achieving the effect shortly. For example, in the exercise of relaxation, the procedure is to relax one leg, then another, then one arm, then the other, after a few minutes the whole body is relaxed. Later, the same effect is achieved in a few seconds. As always, the state of mind is the essence. Everything else is just a temporary tool to help a particular state of mind. In this way, I understand and agree with the statement: "The Prayer of the Soul (POTS) and EE were a just a starting point or "foundation" for meditation suggested."
 

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Oxajil said:
And yea, it could be your higher self, it's difficult to know. I'd think the most important thing is that you do it as long as it is comfortable for you, which may differ at times, or change as you continue practicing. Or you can decide to do the seed meditation for a certain number of counts, each in- and out-breath together being one count while you concentrate on the seed. Fwiw.
Something that I had not do it is concentrate on the seed, need to go and read more about it. Thanks!
 

David

Jedi Master
Laura said:
(L) No visualization. Just words. Visualizations come later. Visualizations can induce interesting effects, but you have to get to the point where you can discipline your mind enough to repeat a selected series of words or a phrase continuously without being deviated by the mind wandering.

It's like lifting weights. Your brain will get tired. But the more you do it, the longer you can do it, and the less tired your brain gets. Eventually, you can get this single pointed focus on exactly what you're doing and hold your attention and focus on it for an indefinite period of time.

When you can do that, let me know.

(Perceval) What words did you suggest he use?

(L) You can use the Prayer of the Soul, or you can recite a poem. It almost doesn't matter since you're just exercising your focusing power. I always used the Lord's Prayer.

I’m some what reluctant to visualise anything, when ever I take to focusing on a point, I tend to start looking at where my eyes are not looking, if that makes sense, and its always similar, but different depending on where it is that I’m practicing, which isn’t very often, just a couple of times in a year, because I’m not sure about it... is it a projection or is it how the unconscious sees the world, or just the work of imagination, because maybe I’m expecting to see something and do.

And I’m reminded of G talking about those sniper guys who would sit still with their guns for days, who have crystallised something permanent in themselves, but an utterly useless crystallisation... that’s something I would think of as a good thing to avoid.

Though back to visualisations, should one visualise/build a hyper-dimensional ship, hop on board, and just depart for home. I’m tempted, though I’ve no idea where home is... part of me thinks, what a rather silly thing to do, but another part, thinks its the only way I’m going to get off this planet... ?
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
A: The EE program can be used as a foundation, but straight meditation with seed is more along the line intended here.

While C's recommended "meditation" often, it's the first time they've elaborated on it. But very cryptic & compact. Straight meditation ... with seed. That's it.

Avoiding new age material, I found a reference to seed in Alexandra David-Neel's Magic and Mystery in Tibet. (Published in 1932, based on her extensive travels and living in that part of the world.) She was a keen observer. Tibetan scholar Alexander Berzin made pointed reference to Neel as an early key source of material. It's probably safe to assume she saw the Tibet that Gurdjieff saw. (Untainted by subsequent new age romanticism.)

Here's a brief excerpt (within the tumo meditative practice):

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
breathing drills are first performed which aim at clearing the passage of air in nostrils.

then pride, anger, hatred, covetousness, sloth, stupidity are mentally rejected with the
rhythmic breathing out.


all blessings from saintly beings, the five wisdoms, all that is good and lofty in the
world are attracted and assimilated while drawing in the breath.

while perfectly calm, one imagines a golden lotus, in one's body on level with the navel.
In this lotus, stands the syllable ram. Above ram is the syllable ma.

these mystic syllables are called seed.

these must not be regarded as mere written characters, or symbolic representations of
things, but as living beings endowed with motive power.

for instance ram is not the mystic name of fire, it is the seed of fire.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm unsure if this is remotely related to what the C's had in mind. But precision (with words) IS their trade mark. Yet a reference along these lines would perhaps take us too far removed from our current understandings. And they are unlikely to do that in my opinion (being adepts at skillful means.)

At the same time, I do not believe seed was chosen casually. I don't think they would use an ordinary run of the mill definition for such a key word. (But I could be wrong.)

What keeps tugging at me -- are their repeated references to imagination. And the many hints of how we're still far from realizing the true power of our minds. So maybe time to loosen up? I really don't know ... since loosening up too much is a very uncomfortable feeling. And potentially dangerous as well.

FWIW.

PS
Tumo is a well researched yogic practice bordering somewhat on the unbelievable. But it seems Harvard Medical School is interested in its manifested capabilities:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUdtFu_hwI&list=PLplFsi0BjJRoWGypHnifGQlbLvbo1M3a5
 

SeekinTruth

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
<snip>
then pride, anger, hatred, covetousness, sloth, stupidity are mentally rejected with the
rhythmic breathing out.[/i]

all blessings from saintly beings, the five wisdoms, all that is good and lofty in the
world are attracted and assimilated while drawing in the breath.


This sounds very similar to Beatha, except during getting ready to do Beatha, Laura instructs in a much more universal way a similar concept (not using any terms associated with any tradition as above). FWIW.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
SeekinTruth said:
This sounds very similar to Beatha, except during getting ready to do Beatha, Laura instructs in a much more universal way a similar concept (not using any terms associated with any tradition as above).

Agreed. And the concept is key -- the specific terms are secondary.

I'm thinking more and more that this is really a firm nudging (endorsement) by the C's for visualization. But done with proper guidance and mind discipline. It certainly is in line with their frequent suggestion regarding imagination.

But care must be taken. No "rocket ship off this planet" kind of stuff. I believe we as a group have the sufficient knowledge base (and good common sense) for a safe undertaking. This I think was the purpose of their seed remark.

And it doesn't have to tie into any one tradition. With sufficient knowledge, I think one can make up one's own. But drawing on tradition helps.

I believe the mystic syllable ram was employed (in example cited) because fire (inner heat) was intended in tumo. Other concepts of seed will depend on what is intended in each particular case. But again, nothing silly or flighty.

Speaking for myself, I've done a lot with these exercises. For many years now. Though less in terms of seed but more in terms of chi circulation. Along with several of Seth's recommended visualization practices. I've noticed subtle benefits along the way.

FWIW.

PS
The tumo yogic practice may have an interesting side benefit. In the process of generating inner heat, it may burn off (kill) various parasites residing within the body. (If there's a certain temperature survival range for these critters.) I recall a comment by C's that the cold protocol also has an effect of ultimately raising the core temperature of the body. Minutely. But then maybe a little is all you need.
 

SeekinTruth

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Yeah, I remember the C's saying the cold protocol would raise the core temperature enough to kill viruses (if I remember correctly).
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
SeekinTruth said:
This sounds very similar to Beatha, except during getting ready to do Beatha, Laura instructs in a much more universal way a similar concept (not using any terms associated with any tradition as above).

Agreed. And the concept is key -- the specific terms are secondary.

I'm thinking more and more that this is really a firm nudging (endorsement) by the C's for visualization. But done with proper guidance and mind discipline. It certainly is in line with their frequent suggestion regarding imagination.

But care must be taken. No "rocket ship off this planet" kind of stuff. I believe we as a group have the sufficient knowledge base (and good common sense) for a safe undertaking. This I think was the purpose of their seed remark.

And it doesn't have to tie into any one tradition. With sufficient knowledge, I think one can make up one's own. But drawing on tradition helps.

I believe the mystic syllable ram was employed (in example cited) because fire (inner heat) was intended in tumo. Other concepts of seed will depend on what is intended in each particular case. But again, nothing silly or flighty.

Speaking for myself, I've done a lot with these exercises. For many years now. Though less in terms of seed but more in terms of chi circulation. Along with several of Seth's recommended visualization practices. I've noticed subtle benefits along the way.

FWIW.

PS
The tumo yogic practice may have an interesting side benefit. In the process of generating inner heat, it may burn off (kill) various parasites residing within the body. (If there's a certain temperature survival range for these critters.) I recall a comment by C's that the cold protocol also has an effect of ultimately raising the core temperature of the body. Minutely. But then maybe a little is all you need.

Thanks for the mention of a good common sense approach. I have been thinking that the EE breathing really relates well to the cold protocol.

Here are some links to videos on breathing and cold protocol:

Brief Tummo method: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cICNvJm6S4

General down to earth description of the Wim Hof method by Wim Hof himself: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ial3Rc7Xg&index=4&list=PLvbGdlVMf3yHlo8s9Wn3KXf8uwLySICZ4

Brief video of Wim Hof breathing method by young guy: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22JCWo4HCek&index=2&list=PLvbGdlVMf3yHlo8s9Wn3KXf8uwLySICZ4

Benefits to Wim Hof breathing and detox after effects: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpePVl399OU

I think EE is still our foundation and we are very fortunate that Laura and the Cs clued us in on it. I am trying to get back into the cold protocol since I stopped for awhile and then found my tolerance difficult to maintain or get back to the same length of time I was doing. I thought I would see how others out there might be doing it. FWIW
 
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