Question about DNA haplogroups

[shijing]

I've been studying up on genetic haplogroups recently as another angle from which to tackle prehistory, and I wanted to suggest a group of questions to ask at some point when and if there is an opportunity. I know that recently sessions have centered around E/E and FOTCM, which are the obvious priorities for us as a group right now, so I am only putting this out there in case there is time to explore other topics down the road.

Let me give a bit of background -- there has been an increasing amount of progress made in the last couple of decades using human genetic material from the sex chromosomes (Y-DNA for patrilines -- father-to-son lineages, and MtDNA for matrilines -- mother-to-daughter lineages) to map out a history of human evolution. DNA sequences can be compared from person to person, and the sequences can be classified according to the number and location of mutations. To simplify things, I am going to only focus on Y-DNA for now. A chart of the current Y-DNA tree (Human Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups) is given at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

The distribution of these haplogroups around the world from that page is reproduced here:

So with this information in mind, the question(s) I would like to suggest are the following:

(1) Is the current method of using genetic haplotype data a valid way to construct and represent a history of the human race?

If the answer is 'no', then I guess there is no need to continue (unless Laura et al have their own follow-up questions). If the answer is 'yes', then I'd like to suggest the following two additional questions:

(2) If so, then do some mutations which are used to define haplogroups represent intentional genetic manipulation of the human genome at specific points in history? For example, does the Y-chromosome subgroup H1a-M82 which is associated with the Roma (Gypsies) correlate with the event described below?:

Q: We would like to know what is the origin of the Gypsies.
A: Genes spliced. Slaves of dark forces.

Q: If the Gypsies were gene spliced, who were they gene spliced with?
A: Alien race, humanoid, and Atlantean drone workers.

Q: What were Atlantean drone workers?
A: Slave people controlled by crystal.

Q: Why do the Gypsies remain so cohesive? Is that genetically programmed?
A: Yes. And mind control.

(3) Are any or all of haplogroups I, J, and R correlated with the original male population of Kantek? If so, since these are located in the lower half of the human genetic tree, does this mean that some pre-existing Earth population was used as a template, genetically altered, and then removed to Kantek from Earth in remote human history?

And that's probably enough on that topic for one session. I'm also interested in hearing anyone else's thoughts about this in the meantime.

 

[shijing]

I wanted to add one more question to the three in the post above, inspired partly by what Lauranimal posted here (with the same caveats about the priority and relevance of this question as above):

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=15706.msg131624#new

From wikipedia regarding a subgroup (I-M26) of the I haplotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29):

Haplogroup I-M26 is notable for its strong presence in Sardinia. Haplogroup I comprises approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians, and I-M26 is the predominant type of I among them. It has been found outside of Sardinia only at low frequencies in Southwest Europe, the Czech Republic, and the Republic of Macedonia.

Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy, while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques.

The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden.

Question (4): If subgroup I-M26 is correlated with the builders of the European and Southwest Asian system of megaliths, what are the origins of both haplogroup I and subgroup I-M26, and what (if any) genetic and/or cultural properties were present that allowed (and motivated) the members of this subgroup to engage in this endeavor?

 

[Voyageur]

Hi Shijing,

(1) Is the current method of using genetic haplotype data a valid way to construct and represent a history of the human race?


If the answer is 'no', then I guess there is no need to continue (unless Laura et al have their own follow-up questions). If the answer is 'yes', then I'd like to suggest the following two additional questions:

Just wanted to say that if it is yes then your next question on the second post is very interesting; you obviously did some thinking about this which ties into your other posts from a few months ago. Frankly, wish I could contribute to the answer to your question and have bookmarked this to see where it goes.

Whenever thinking about megaliths, I wonder if we have only scratched the surface; much more disbursement than presumed or found?

Question (4): If subgroup I-M26 is correlated with the builders of the European and Southwest Asian system of megaliths, what are the origins of both haplogroup I and subgroup I-M26, and what (if any) genetic and/or cultural properties were present that allowed (and motivated) the members of this subgroup to engage in this endeavor?

Thanks! :)

 

[shijing]

Just wanted to say that if it is yes then your next question on the second post is very interesting; you obviously did some thinking about this which ties into your other posts from a few months ago. Frankly, wish I could contribute to the answer to your question and have bookmarked this to see where it goes.

Thanks Parallax, and we'll see what happens -- like I said, this isn't as high-priority as the stuff that needs to be asked about FOTCM and so on, but I tried to make sure that the questions weren't anything that we would be able to answer ourselves if we just did more research.

Whenever thinking about megaliths, I wonder if we have only scratched the surface; much more disbursement than presumed or found?

I'm pretty sure -- I believe there is a semi-regular trickle of news that one megalith (or pyramid, etc) has been discovered somewhere in the world or another, so its likely that there is still a lot sitting there that has been hidden by the deluge or covered up subsequently. Its also likely that some elements of the 'government' know about more of these sites than do the general public.

 

[Laura]

Can you compile this into a doc file and send it to me via email?

 

[shijing]

Can you compile this into a doc file and send it to me via email?

Done, and sent to your SotT address -- please let me know if it doesn't show up for any reason.

 

[Eboard10]

This question reminds me of one of Laura's articles, "Jupiter, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and the Return of the Mongols" which I just finished reading a couple of days ago. I really enjoyed reading it. However, the article is still unfinished so I was wondering if it's ever going to be continued, though I am aware that there are more pressing matters to deal with atm.

UPDATE: I also have a question concerning the origin of the Uralic languages. These populations are one of the most mysterious in terms of their origins as they are very different from the Indo-Europeans especially the Sami People from Northern Scandinavia and the Basques from Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

Genetic data

Anthropologists have been studying the Sami people for hundreds of years for their assumed physical and cultural differences from the rest of Europeans. Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal linages of the Sámi people are the first Homo sapiens inhabitants of Europe and the second, descendants of common ancestors with Basque people, one of the earliest inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula.[36] The most common paternal linage among the Sami are possible ancestors originating from the Volga-Ural region who may represent a Finno-Ugric speaking people.[37] The result being, of a population product of two lines of migration represented by each sex, met at some point in history in the same area (or a former one, perhaps near by). Being the one represented by the female mitochondrial DNA haplogroups the more sedentary, or local, the one with western origins more in common with other Europeans, and the male Y-DNA haplogroups the ones with an eastern origin more in common with other western Asian, Uralic peoples. At which point in history, and how it came to be, is an interesting question that however shows a much earlier date than the arrival of other human groups to the region, and maybe much southern in geography, as other archaeological finds perhaps related to the Sami have been found of earlier ages in southern parts of Scandinavia.

The mitochondrial haplogroups most strongly represented among the Sámi are of the types Ursula and Velda, and to some extent the rather common European 'foremother' Helena. This points to an extremely early presence in Europe, and migration northwards from the southern parts of the continent (modern Greece, Spain) several tens of thousands of years ago. The Y-chromosome haplogroups present suggests a lot of intermixing with other human groups in Scandinavia.[38]

The mtDNA studies have revealed that the Sami had separated from other Europeans over 10,000 years ago, making the Sami a unique and ancient sub-group of Europeans. Haplogroup V (mtDNA) indicates ancient population movement that started about 15,000 years ago, from Southwestern Europe up to Northwestern Europe. The Haplogroup's frequency in Europe is highest among the Sami (40.9%) followed by Catalonians (26.7%) and Basque (20.0%).[36] However, the higher concentration of microsatellite variation of this haplogroup shown in the Basques' neighbor population of Pasiegos of Cantabria, indicates this as the minority ethnic group where the V haplogroup may have been born and perhaps it was more abundant in the past.

Modern research in genetics seems to agree that Sami people have a slightly higher incidence than other European populations of markers on their mitochondrial (maternal line) DNA indicating descent from hunter-gatherer peoples who followed the receding glaciers at the end of the latest ice age, while the Y-chromosome (paternal line) markers indicate some ancestry among the Finno-Ugric populations. Genetic studies also indicate shared ancestry with neighboring Nordic populations.[39] Archeological evidence for the area suggests that several different cultural groups made their way to the core area of Sapmi from 8000-6000 BC,[40] presumably including some of the ancestors of present-day Sami. In addition, the Sami and North African Berbers share a direct and unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link.

From the above quote it seems that the Uralic people separated from the Europeans/Celts more than 10,000 years ago which might coincide with the fall of Atlantis and the great deluge. From the above picture it is sound to say that these Uralics were probably living in those regions already previously (North Pole? Eskimoes?) and later some migrated south towards Spain and other European regions (Laura covers it a bit in http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/article-lkj-04-03-06.htm), although it could just as well be the other way round, or the Basques are only partially related to the Sami. The question remains as to the origin of their differences both from a linguistical viewpoint as well as from a genetic/appearance one. Are they the descendants of a mix between Aryans and possibly a prior Race living before the Fall of Atlantis? Or are they a different Race alltogether? This is just pure speculation but it would be interesting to know what the C's have to say on this.

 

[shijing]

Hi Eboard10 -- I just wanted to let you know what I know about your question at this point in case it might be helpful to you:

From the above quote it seems that the Uralic people separated from the Europeans/Celts more than 10,000 years ago which might coincide with the fall of Atlantis and the great deluge. From the above picture it is sound to say that these Uralics were probably living in those regions already previously (North Pole? Eskimoes?) and later some migrated south towards Spain and other European regions (Laura covers it a bit in http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/article-lkj-04-03-06.htm), although it could just as well be the other way round, or the Basques are only partially related to the Sami. The question remains as to the origin of their differences both from a linguistical viewpoint as well as from a genetic/appearance one. Are they the descendants of a mix between Aryans and possibly a prior Race living before the Fall of Atlantis? Or are they a different Race alltogether? This is just pure speculation but it would be interesting to know what the C's have to say on this.

The Wikipedia article that you cite indicates that there are two divergent histories indicated for the Saami, correlated with Y-DNA (the patriline) and MtDNA (the matriline) respectively. The impression that I get from the article is that the patrilineal component is Siberian, a northeast Asian group that would have probably originated east of the Urals (around the area of the Nenets and Khanty in your map, in my present understanding) and migrated westward towards and finally into Fennoscandia. The Uralic language family is probably most closely related to other Siberian languages of Eurasia, first to Yukaghir, then to Chukchi-Kamchatkan and Eskimo-Aleut. Here is an good book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Relations-Across-Bering-Strait/dp/0304703303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264484434&sr=1-1

This is part of the East Asian population that the C's indicated were the result of interbreeding between Aryans and indigenous East Asians -- culturally, there seem to be specific shamanic traditions and themes that occur in all of these groups, that they also share with groups speaking Altaic languages to the south of Siberia.

On the other hand, the matriline is apparently old European, indicating that male speakers of Uralic languages migrated into Fennoscandia and began to intermix with the indigenous female inhabitants (this is all general -- I'm sure the specifics were more complicated). The Basque language itself is not Indo-European, and is very likely part of a group called Macro-Caucasic, which I believe to be related to at least some northern Native American languages, making it the descendant (through transitivity) of an original Atlantean group. The Basques themselves are probably a genetic mix between this Atlantean group and an Aryan (or Indo-European) group. The fact that the MtDNA haplogroup V is shared between the Saami, Basque, and Berbers also indicates that this is an Atlantean haplogroup, since I suspect that there is an Atlantean connection with the Berbers of northern Africa as well.

There is a good collection of papers that are germane to this topic in a volume that I am currently reading right now here:

http://www.amazon.com/Early-contacts-between-Uralic-Indo-European/dp/9525150593/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264485162&sr=1-1

Both of the books I mention above are expensive, but could be held by a university library if you happen to have access to one.

 

[Laura]

Yes, I received the document. Thanks.

Meanwhile, this little book I just finished, "The Diluvian Impact" by Heinrich P. Koch, takes a really interesting approach to some of these issues: looking at the myths and legends of the peoples of Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, etc, and comparing those to language groups, etc. It might be an interesting adjunct to DNA mapping. VERY interesting, and he has gone through a TON of resources, fully annotated so you can backtrack. I think he conflates several "cometary events" but, other than that, he sticks mainly to his mandate of collecting this mostly unknown to the West data together in a systematic way.

 

[Eboard10]

Thanks for clearing up things Shijing. I still have to look into the haplogroups and mtDNA in more depth; it is certainly one of the most useful means to trace the movements of the survivors of Atlantis.

 

[shijing]

Meanwhile, this little book I just finished, "The Diluvian Impact" by Heinrich P. Koch, takes a really interesting approach to some of these issues: looking at the myths and legends of the peoples of Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, etc, and comparing those to language groups, etc. It might be an interesting adjunct to DNA mapping. VERY interesting, and he has gone through a TON of resources, fully annotated so you can backtrack. I think he conflates several "cometary events" but, other than that, he sticks mainly to his mandate of collecting this mostly unknown to the West data together in a systematic way.

I was happy to discover over the weekend that my library carries The Diluvian Impact, as well as The Other God (Stoyanov) and The Mind in the Cave (Lewis-Williams). Unfortunately they didn't have the The Prehistory of the Mind (Steven Mithen), so I'm putting that on my wish-list for now. I started Koch last night.

When I was looking for it, I also ran across a Velikovsky book (Earth in Upheaval) as well as a couple others -- Snowball Earth (Gabrielle Walker) and Cataclysms and the Earth History (Richard Huggett) -- I don't know if these are any good, but I thought I'd check them out just in case.

 

[shijing]

Thanks for clearing up things Shijing. I still have to look into the haplogroups and mtDNA in more depth; it is certainly one of the most useful means to trace the movements of the survivors of Atlantis.

Sure thing -- I didn't want to discourage you from suggesting a question for the C's by the way, I just wanted to let you know which parts of your question I had already studied and/or had some ideas about. I think the Uralic origins question is a very interesting one.