Question about abortion

idiaysan

Padawan Learner
This past night I had a voluntary termination of pregnancy, in my 5th week of gestation, I am in love with my partner, I want to be a mother and we both want to have children, but I am fully aware of the minimal situation I want to bring to this world, and That does not happen right now.

I feel sad, so it could have been and was not (at this point, it will be when it is decided), but not for having committed a murder or something like that, none of that. It was a difficult decision, but fully responsible and also consensual with my partner.

In this sense, I want to claim the importance of them, men, our partners, both in the role of parenthood and in deciding to abort and postpone it.

I want to have children in the future and not only for a narcissistic question, although I admit that it is very difficult to leave this programming, to give children to this planet, that after a very conscious education can combat the psychopathic world that awaits and help others to Understand it. For this maybe a community is needed? It's an idea that I still have to shape in my mind ...

Souls are necessary, in this world so desolate, chaotic and terrible; Conscious minds are necessary to bring light and understanding to so much world hostility.

It has helped me a lot to read this thread, well, it is always inspiring to read the forum :), thank you very much, strength and light to continue !!
 

Ant22

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Lavinia_Sofia said:
This past night I had a voluntary termination of pregnancy, in my 5th week of gestation, I am in love with my partner, I want to be a mother and we both want to have children, but I am fully aware of the minimal situation I want to bring to this world, and That does not happen right now.
(...)
Souls are necessary, in this world so desolate, chaotic and terrible; Conscious minds are necessary to bring light and understanding to so much world hostility.

Hi Lavinia_Sofia, I don’t know you or the exact circumstances you’re in but if it means anything at all, I would just like to say that to me (and that’s just my very subjective view point), sometimes abortion is simply a really responsible decision to make. For yourself and the child.

My mom had me at 21, very young in today’s standards, although back then it was probably the average age of a new mom. I have heard her say lots of times that she really wishes she’d done so many things before having children. Don’t get me wrong, she’s one of those women who always knew they wanted to have children and I never, not even for a second, felt she regrets having us. And she did an amazing job really, despite all the obstacles we faced.

And that’s the point. If only she’d waited a little longer there wouldn’t be as many obstacles. I just can’t help but think how much easier her entire life would have been, how many more opportunities I myself would be able to take, and how much better equipped I would be today, emotionally, socially and financially, to face and assimilate the lessons I’ve been offered in my life. And most importantly, how many lessons she would be able to take if raising children with limited means, knowledge and understanding of the reality of this world hadn’t occupied her entire energy.

If only she actually did the things she regrets not doing before she had children.

I understand the necessity of facing obstacles in order to grow and I am grateful for all the lessons her decision to have me brought into my life. And in retrospect, it was the hardest ones the hardest ones proved to be a real blessing in disguise, accelerating my own development. But if she actually equipped herself a little better and prepared the ground for us, we wouldn’t have to be stuck in a hamster wheel of repeating the same lesson over and over again, simply because we couldn’t afford to move on. And I do feel there are lots of lessons I never had a chance to pursue and experience because of this.

I can imagine that your decision to terminate the pregnancy wasn’t an easy one. I won’t pretend I know how you feel because I’ve never been there. I’m not married and I’ve never felt that having children is in the cards for me. How I view having children is most likely heavily filtered through the subjectivity of these circumstances but I must say I agree with what was said in this thread. I actually read it a couple of years ago and it came as such a relief that I’m not the only person who feels that way.

There’s this saying that you can either give life to yourself or somebody else. I don’t entirely agree with this. I may be missing the point but the way I see it is that you should first give life to yourself before you can meaningfully give it to someone else. Fwiw.

I wish you all the growth this lesson has to offer. Take care!
 

idiaysan

Padawan Learner
Thanks for your words Ant22, life is full of challenges and it is wonderful to be able to get a good learning from all of them. Take care you too, greetings!
 

MikaelYosef

Jedi Master
I am sorry Lavinia_Sofia for your circumstance but understand the learning opportunity as mentioned by Ant22. The harder the situation, the more opportunity there is for growth - I sometimes wish it wasn't as unpleasant as it is. My thoughts are with you :)
 

Laurs

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Q: (V) Does abortion create karma resulting in breast cancer?

A: Hormonal anomalies cause breast cancer. Karma is interconnected with physical experiences.

Q: (L) Are you saying that having an abortion can create Karma?

A: Of course.
The question i have i guess is what you all think would be the STO thing to do when it is discovered after 20 weeks of pregnancy that the baby has a severe form of spina bifide and specialist doctors paint a grim picture for the future if the decision is made to carry the baby to term and have it. I know there are physical handicaps and there may be mental handicaps, not sure.

The background to this question is that this is happening to a couple in my family. She is 20 weeks pregnant. After the elaborate 20-week scan this week it turns out that the baby she is carrying has a severe form of spina bifide. The couple had a consultation this past week with specialists who advised them that they could operate in vitro and help the baby in some way but in case they would opt to carry the baby to term he would be severely handicapped both physically and maybe mentally. Wow, some news as per the 16 week check up, they said that everything looked fine and healthy, but i understand that this is one of the reasons they perform this scan at the 20 week marker.

As per advise from the specialists, my family members have chosen to terminate the pregnancy and delivery will be induced this coming week, the baby shall be born and soon die thereafter. My heart goes out to them and the baby and i understand and respect their decision. I do find it interesting that everyone they talked to is in full agreement with their decision to terminate and the main arguments used seem to be:

- that it would be best for the child, who is predicted to have not much quality of life (of course seen through the lenses of the 'normal' people); and
- best for the parents, who are deemed to have a heavy burden to carry while not being able to have much quality of a 'normal life' anymore. These family members have no spiritual or religious interests.
- who are we to make the decision to terminate someone's life, that is a very scary thing to do? Unanswered
- what type of life will a severely handicapped person have? A lousy one
- what type of life will we have when caring for such a child? A very burdened one
- are we willing to make those sacrificies in terms of love, time, money? No

As I spoke to them on the phone yesterday (this would be 4 days after the news) i could not help but notice a bit that they are feeling mostly very sorry for themselves, that such a thing has been done to them, or has happened to them, why them, and now they have to go through this process and all, etc.

Okay back to the question. What would be the STO thing to do when taking the view that every situation offers opportunities for soul growth. In light of what the C's said in this session, it seems obvious that karma will be created by inducing the abortion.

Could the reasons they used to come to their decision come from the view, that the life of this child and the child itself, which i think is all chosen on a soul level with the mother, are viewed through 3D STS glasses as "imperfect" and therefore some sort of "error that needs to be fixed" as in a judgment towards the Universe that It has "delivered a broken piece of life", which needs to be terminated as it would clearly interfere with a (societal) concept of 'leading a quality life' both for child and parents? If viewed in this way, one would imagine that the karma generated, especially for the mother (?), would be considerable. Interestingly, while researching i found this article about a couple in the same position as my family members who took a completely different view and said somthing to the extent of, there is life, and that is precious in whatever form and life means always hope and they did what they could to make the situation as pleasant for everyone as possible and i think they succeeded very well. But it also seems one's marriage (and community) has to be really strong to pull such a thing off successfully. I am not sure my family members have that strong a bond.

It would seem to me that it would be more in line with STO to let the natural process run its course: carry the baby to term and accept without judgement what comes before one, especially when prepared, and taking responsibility as best as one can, like the couple from my research. If one were to follow this route, it seems to me that much karma would be resolved.

Of course I keep in mind that on the other hand, we can never know the mission of others and simplistically put, perhaps the mission of this baby was indeed to experience life generation in the womb for 20 weeks and that's that. And for the mother to experience having to go through this process of deliberately deciding to end someone's life and accruing karma. I have read a few times that children who die very young are often advanced souls contracting with the parents to teach them certain lessons.

Okay, thanks for taking the time to read this and i am interested in learning what anyone's thoughts are.
 

Ant22

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
The question i have i guess is what you all think would be the STO thing to do when it is discovered after 20 weeks of pregnancy that the baby has a severe form of spina bifide and specialist doctors paint a grim picture for the future if the decision is made to carry the baby to term and have it. I know there are physical handicaps and there may be mental handicaps, not sure.

First of all, note that the C's said abortion 'can' create karma, not that it creates karma 100% of the time. As with everything else context is king. There is the good, the bad, and the situation that determines which one's which. Given that replication of species through pregnancy is an automatic process, kind of like an assembly line, as such it is prone to errors. Mother Nature designed the process exceptionally well, yet humans live in heavily toxic and stressful environments that are likely to affect the replication process in a manner that increases the possibility of errors. We cannot know for sure that this is the case in your family members' case, but we cannot be sure that it isn't either.

Of course we cannot know for sure if the error is in fact a lesson your family members are rejecting, but if they aren't spiritually inclined I doubt they worry about karma. It is their choice not to pursue such topics and this choice must be respected. Their soul is on a different journey to the souls of those who have and pursue spiritual interests. And even if karma is in fact created in their case, not all is lost. Although they would not be able to make it up to the child, they can still make it up to the universe at large. What will they do with the life circumstances they get to keep by not having this child?

Second of all, the world is burning and it's going to get much worse than this. In my opinion by choosing to terminate the pregnancy the parents are choosing to act in favour of their own survival, not against the survival of the child per se. With jobs becoming more and more scarce, how would they take care of a child whose basic comfort and even survival depends on higher than usual financial input? Not to mention that the percentage of disabled children raised by single mothers is much higher that the percentage of healthy children raised by single parents. Here's a an article with some stats from 2019.

Then there's the fact that the soul marries with genetics, it's possible that the child's genetic make-up wouldn't be able to seat a soul. The concept of genetic entropy comes to mind, here's something Laura wrote about this topic. The context is different but the comment is quite universal:

After all the genetics reading we've done over the past year, I even wonder if humanity has reached its "sell by" date, and I mean that really seriously. If soul marries with genetics, it may be getting increasingly difficult to find bodies to incarnate into that can "carry the charge" of a seeking soul.
The child's physical or even mental issues may make the seating of a soul in that body even more difficult.

There is also this quote from the 'Abortion thread, the entire thread is worth reading as well:
I have read in a few esoteric sources that the soul doesn't actually "seat" fully until between 6 and 9 years old. I would think that if there is any "connection" between a soul and a forming fetal body, it is basically in the curious-hover stage, looking on and observing the development of a potential "vehicle" and an abortion is not "killing a human being" in the sense of extinguishing a soul.

Obviously, abortion is not an optimal solution, a better one is to not get pregnant if you are not ready to and the conditions are not best for the incoming (forget the narcissistic needs of potential parents), but that is not the way our backward society works. Giving birth to a baby is not a "miracle" in any spiritual sense, any mammal on the planet can do it and nobody raves about the "miracle" of a litter of pigs. There really isn't that much difference in terms of producing a human genetic body that is the result of recombinant DNA.

Finally, human beings take greater care in ensuring the good breeding/health of their livestock than they do in considering producing their own young which, in a very real sense, actually degrades the act of giving birth to less than the "miracle" of a litter of Berkshires, say. How many people actually consider the genetic history of their mates both in terms of possible physical problems and mental problems? A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.

Lastly, just a small suggestion form me that since this post discusses your family's personal matters you may choose to have it moved to the Swamp section. If privacy isn't a concern and you prefer it discussed here, that's fine too. But many members have busy lives and they tend to selectively read threads that interest them. A post in a very early session may not be very visible for this reason. Swamp posts often receive more replies as our members want to help others more than read what's been posted about an old session. Just a thought.
 
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ryu

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
The question i have i guess is what you all think would be the STO thing to do when it is discovered after 20 weeks of pregnancy that the baby has a severe form of spina bifide and specialist doctors paint a grim picture for the future if the decision is made to carry the baby to term and have it. I know there are physical handicaps and there may be mental handicaps, not sure.

The background to this question is that this is happening to a couple in my family. She is 20 weeks pregnant. After the elaborate 20-week scan this week it turns out that the baby she is carrying has a severe form of spina bifide. The couple had a consultation this past week with specialists who advised them that they could operate in vitro and help the baby in some way but in case they would opt to carry the baby to term he would be severely handicapped both physically and maybe mentally. Wow, some news as per the 16 week check up, they said that everything looked fine and healthy, but i understand that this is one of the reasons they perform this scan at the 20 week marker.

As per advise from the specialists, my family members have chosen to terminate the pregnancy and delivery will be induced this coming week, the baby shall be born and soon die thereafter. My heart goes out to them and the baby and i understand and respect their decision. I do find it interesting that everyone they talked to is in full agreement with their decision to terminate and the main arguments used seem to be:

- that it would be best for the child, who is predicted to have not much quality of life (of course seen through the lenses of the 'normal' people); and
- best for the parents, who are deemed to have a heavy burden to carry while not being able to have much quality of a 'normal life' anymore. These family members have no spiritual or religious interests.
- who are we to make the decision to terminate someone's life, that is a very scary thing to do? Unanswered
- what type of life will a severely handicapped person have? A lousy one
- what type of life will we have when caring for such a child? A very burdened one
- are we willing to make those sacrificies in terms of love, time, money? No

As I spoke to them on the phone yesterday (this would be 4 days after the news) i could not help but notice a bit that they are feeling mostly very sorry for themselves, that such a thing has been done to them, or has happened to them, why them, and now they have to go through this process and all, etc.

Okay back to the question. What would be the STO thing to do when taking the view that every situation offers opportunities for soul growth. In light of what the C's said in this session, it seems obvious that karma will be created by inducing the abortion.

Could the reasons they used to come to their decision come from the view, that the life of this child and the child itself, which i think is all chosen on a soul level with the mother, are viewed through 3D STS glasses as "imperfect" and therefore some sort of "error that needs to be fixed" as in a judgment towards the Universe that It has "delivered a broken piece of life", which needs to be terminated as it would clearly interfere with a (societal) concept of 'leading a quality life' both for child and parents? If viewed in this way, one would imagine that the karma generated, especially for the mother (?), would be considerable. Interestingly, while researching i found this article about a couple in the same position as my family members who took a completely different view and said somthing to the extent of, there is life, and that is precious in whatever form and life means always hope and they did what they could to make the situation as pleasant for everyone as possible and i think they succeeded very well. But it also seems one's marriage (and community) has to be really strong to pull such a thing off successfully. I am not sure my family members have that strong a bond.

It would seem to me that it would be more in line with STO to let the natural process run its course: carry the baby to term and accept without judgement what comes before one, especially when prepared, and taking responsibility as best as one can, like the couple from my research. If one were to follow this route, it seems to me that much karma would be resolved.

Of course I keep in mind that on the other hand, we can never know the mission of others and simplistically put, perhaps the mission of this baby was indeed to experience life generation in the womb for 20 weeks and that's that. And for the mother to experience having to go through this process of deliberately deciding to end someone's life and accruing karma. I have read a few times that children who die very young are often advanced souls contracting with the parents to teach them certain lessons.

Okay, thanks for taking the time to read this and i am interested in learning what anyone's thoughts are.
Hello Laurs, I am sorry that surch a thing happens to your family. I would say that, this little soul, even if he/she will not arrive in your family, did bring them an important lesson. First, that this kind of situation does not happen only to others. This little one made them reflect, even if only inconsciously, on what kind of marriage they had, what kind of people they are, what they expect from life, the strengh of the bonds they have around them.

In a STO society the problem would have been handled differently, only because I guess communities are more tight-knit than ours. But as you know, we're not there yet. And perharps your family members are not STO-oriented persons. This choice is what is they perceive to be the best for everyone, because from what you said, they don't seem to recognize that the baby could have a meaningful life with its condition. Societies are often not kind to the weak and sickly, more so now with the COVID madness in full speed. So for them, that's the best course of action. Maybe their opinion will change as they age, maybe not.

Parents who have a child with difficulties are often alone, and you'd better have a strong marriage if you want to pull through. There's also the fact that many couples have children for totally selfish reasons. Even if you're more on the STO side of things, you have to ask yourself: who's gonna take care of your child when you are gone? Do you have the means to take care of him/her? Are there institutions, therapies nearby that you can afford? Abortion is a gray area, because sometimes there are not "right" solutions.

I will pray for the baby's soul if you permit it, so that he/she can travel safely back to 5D.
 

Laurs

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Thanks very much @Ant22 and @ryu for your insightful replies.

I did a forum search on abortion but must have completely missed the existing thread on abortion you brought up, Ant22 or i would have posted there, as that was the type of information i was interested in. I might not even have posted at all as my questions would have been answered i think (privacy is not really a concern here as i was indeed more interested in discussing abortion and the issues around it when carrying a severely handicapped child regarding a Soul's path of growth, karma etc. Of course i fully understand that if the Moderators wish to move this elsewhere, by all means). So thanks again for bringing it up here and i apologize for the inconvenience. Indeed a very interesting and moving thread and i am going to read it once more but slowly to get everything in there. I did notice a very beautiful and wise thing you said in there, and especially the word 'meaningfully' can be interpreted as to respect the intentions and motivations of all:

There’s this saying that you can either give life to yourself or somebody else. I don’t entirely agree with this. I may be missing the point but the way I see it is that you should first give life to yourself before you can meaningfully give it to someone else. Fwiw.

Very interesting what Laura says that it could be possible that the soul only settles in between 6 and 9 years old so that one does not really 'kill' a baby when inducing abortion. Must be quite reassuring for people who find themselves at odds in these types of situations. And then it is indeed plausible (probable) that if the genetics are off in some way, and i fully agree with you when you mention pollution factors of today and such plus Laura's mentioning of genetic ailments, the soul can not be seated.
Of course we cannot know for sure if the error is in fact a lesson your family members are rejecting, but if they aren't spiritually inclined I doubt they worry about karma. It is their choice not to pursue such topics and this choice must be respected. Their soul is on a different journey to the souls of those who have and pursue spiritual interests. And even if karma is in fact created in their case, not all is lost. Although they would not be able to make it up to the child, they can still make it up to the universe at large. What will they do with the life circumstances they get to keep by not having this child?

Second of all, the world is burning and it's going to get much worse than this. In my opinion by choosing to terminate the pregnancy the parents are choosing to act in favour of their own survival, not against the survival of the child per se. With jobs becoming more and more scarce, how would they take care of a child whose basic comfort and even survival depends on higher than usual financial input? Not to mention that the percentage of disabled children raised by single mothers is much higher that the percentage of healthy children raised by single parents. Here's a an article with some stats from 2019.
I think what you say here rings very true, Ant22, we will see what they will do with the circumstances they get to keep by making this decision. For sure all those reasons you mention in the second paragraph were also taken into account.


This little one made them reflect, even if only inconsciously, on what kind of marriage they had, what kind of people they are, what they expect from life, the strengh of the bonds they have around them.

In a STO society the problem would have been handled differently, only because I guess communities are more tight-knit than ours.
Dear ryu, thank you for your kind words and for your intention to pray, yes, there are a lot of things they can take from this situation, good questions you pose there in your post. Perhaps one day they feel they are interested in that type of development. You raise some very valid points and i fully agree that the area is grey, as Ant22 puts it very eloquently: "There is the good, the bad, and the situation that determines which one is which."

I also like to think about life in an STO society, like you touch upon, where the community would play a much larger role than it does today, especially in the west. Interestingly, Pierre wrote an article for SOTT in which he kind of designed a template for a new social order. I find it exciting and fun to contemplate such a new world...
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Very interesting what Laura says that it could be possible that the soul only settles in between 6 and 9 years old so that one does not really 'kill' a baby when inducing abortion. Must be quite reassuring for people who find themselves at odds in these types of situations. And then it is indeed plausible (probable) that if the genetics are off in some way, and i fully agree with you when you mention pollution factors of today and such plus Laura's mentioning of genetic ailments, the soul can not be seated.

@Laurs the couple you describe are certainly faced with a difficult choice no matter what their religious or spirtiual views. Laura's mention of the seating of the soul may also have been inspired by something the Cs said. My daughter and son-in-law adopted a "shaken baby" syndrome child just this month and I am sure they will have challenges they can not even anticipate.

The baby is a beautiful boy about 16 months old and he is on a feeding tube for now. Eyesight and hearing are affected but final tests have not been done and he has seizures. I can not but wonder "is there anybody in there" sometimes. And I think too does it really matter if there is or is not a "soul" when it comes to caring for others in what we perceive in "human" form. We are a species like many others around us and I think it is natural to protect our own kind so to speak.

Session 4 April 2015:
Q: (L) Okay. Well, that's enough of that. I have another question here. The other question that people were a little curious about on the forum that I noticed was: they wanted to know at what age or stage of development does the soul of an individual enter into the body of a baby that's about to be born?

A: It cannot be set in stone; remember that about half of all babies never house individualized souls. In some cases it can be very early, and others, as late as early adulthood.

Q: (Pierre) Wow.

We just don't know much about the "timing" of a soul being seated it seems.

And if the Cs are correct souls are not born and they never die.

Session 7 January 1995:
Q: (L) How could a baby have infinite knowledge, it only has imprint of its past life experiences. (V) You have heard that also...

A: That is nonsense.

Q: (V) That's fine... I was just... I'm sure you've heard that...

A: Souls are not "born" into this planet. Souls were never born! And, will never die!

I just pray for the best for this couple making a very difficult decision.
 

Mariama

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
As I spoke to them on the phone yesterday (this would be 4 days after the news) i could not help but notice a bit that they are feeling mostly very sorry for themselves, that such a thing has been done to them, or has happened to them, why them, and now they have to go through this process and all, etc.
Perhaps this will change over time, perhaps they needed to vent and knew they could safely do that in your presence? I don't know how your relationship is with this couple, but if they are open to your support you could call them once in a while and see how they are doing. Once this ordeal is over they may start processing, learning their own harsh lessons. All you can do is be there for them when they ask and practice non-anticipation.
 

BHelmet

The Living Force
Interesting topic. Let’s say you have some karmic debt or prior agreement to be the parent of a particular soul. If you abort you might be insuring yourself another life here to complete that bit of karma.

I had a Doctor tell my wife and I needed to consider abortion because of an abnormal scan. They said it looked like trisomy 18. We thought long and hard. Today he is 27 years old and perfectly healthy. They were flat out wrong. But it was an interesting learning experience.

I personally remember choosing my parents prior to conception. I “checked in” at around 3 months and realized I was starting all over as a baby. This was very depressing news. I checked out until the actual birth process and actually tried to dig my feet in to keep from coming out! Obviously that was a fail.

As for when my soul took up permanent residence in this body, I am not sure. A few years ago? LOL!

Anything is possible. We can beat our selves over the head with guilt and doubt or rationalize a hundred stories about how it’s all OK. It’s a choice. We will find out later how it all worked out.
 
A very interesting book to take a look at on this topic IMO written by someone with psychic gifts is "Spirit Babies" by Walter Makichen.

@BHelmet I also remember having a lot of resistance to earth again after being executed at gun point on the right temple. I have the birthmark on my right temple to prove it!
 

BHelmet

The Living Force
@BHelmet I also remember having a lot of resistance to earth again after being executed at gun point on the right temple. I have the birthmark on my right temple to prove it!
We must chuckle, yes?...the odds are that in a 4D STS world, any soul with a large number of lives who is striving to be an STO candidate is going to have a whole lot of negative experiences and miserable endings (slow learners!? Life experience junkies? karmic agreements.....save the world...etc - reasons to keep coming back for more...lessons lessons and more lessons)

I also have a lovely fear of heights - my stomach twists and turns upside down and I feel the edge drawing me like a magnet...the demons howling at me...

the feeling equates with having been tossed from high places more than once...oh and there was the time I was smothered by a velvet pillow as an infant...it just goes on and on...

and here we are again

so, what's the final lesson?

the hardest to learn and accept?
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The question i have i guess is what you all think would be the STO thing to do when it is discovered after 20 weeks of pregnancy that the baby has a severe form of spina bifide and specialist doctors paint a grim picture for the future if the decision is made to carry the baby to term and have it. I know there are physical handicaps and there may be mental handicaps, not sure.

The background to this question is that this is happening to a couple in my family. She is 20 weeks pregnant. After the elaborate 20-week scan this week it turns out that the baby she is carrying has a severe form of spina bifide. The couple had a consultation this past week with specialists who advised them that they could operate in vitro and help the baby in some way but in case they would opt to carry the baby to term he would be severely handicapped both physically and maybe mentally. Wow, some news as per the 16 week check up, they said that everything looked fine and healthy, but i understand that this is one of the reasons they perform this scan at the 20 week marker.

As per advise from the specialists, my family members have chosen to terminate the pregnancy and delivery will be induced this coming week, the baby shall be born and soon die thereafter. My heart goes out to them and the baby and i understand and respect their decision. I do find it interesting that everyone they talked to is in full agreement with their decision to terminate and the main arguments used seem to be:

- that it would be best for the child, who is predicted to have not much quality of life (of course seen through the lenses of the 'normal' people); and
- best for the parents, who are deemed to have a heavy burden to carry while not being able to have much quality of a 'normal life' anymore. These family members have no spiritual or religious interests.
- who are we to make the decision to terminate someone's life, that is a very scary thing to do? Unanswered
- what type of life will a severely handicapped person have? A lousy one
- what type of life will we have when caring for such a child? A very burdened one
- are we willing to make those sacrificies in terms of love, time, money? No

As I spoke to them on the phone yesterday (this would be 4 days after the news) i could not help but notice a bit that they are feeling mostly very sorry for themselves, that such a thing has been done to them, or has happened to them, why them, and now they have to go through this process and all, etc.

Okay back to the question. What would be the STO thing to do when taking the view that every situation offers opportunities for soul growth. In light of what the C's said in this session, it seems obvious that karma will be created by inducing the abortion.

Could the reasons they used to come to their decision come from the view, that the life of this child and the child itself, which i think is all chosen on a soul level with the mother, are viewed through 3D STS glasses as "imperfect" and therefore some sort of "error that needs to be fixed" as in a judgment towards the Universe that It has "delivered a broken piece of life", which needs to be terminated as it would clearly interfere with a (societal) concept of 'leading a quality life' both for child and parents? If viewed in this way, one would imagine that the karma generated, especially for the mother (?), would be considerable. Interestingly, while researching i found this article about a couple in the same position as my family members who took a completely different view and said somthing to the extent of, there is life, and that is precious in whatever form and life means always hope and they did what they could to make the situation as pleasant for everyone as possible and i think they succeeded very well. But it also seems one's marriage (and community) has to be really strong to pull such a thing off successfully. I am not sure my family members have that strong a bond.

It would seem to me that it would be more in line with STO to let the natural process run its course: carry the baby to term and accept without judgement what comes before one, especially when prepared, and taking responsibility as best as one can, like the couple from my research. If one were to follow this route, it seems to me that much karma would be resolved.

Of course I keep in mind that on the other hand, we can never know the mission of others and simplistically put, perhaps the mission of this baby was indeed to experience life generation in the womb for 20 weeks and that's that. And for the mother to experience having to go through this process of deliberately deciding to end someone's life and accruing karma. I have read a few times that children who die very young are often advanced souls contracting with the parents to teach them certain lessons.

Okay, thanks for taking the time to read this and i am interested in learning what anyone's thoughts are.
Maybe they were afraid. Having a disabled child is very demanding and it is very hard and complicated. But above all, it is very demanding: body and soul for this child. A few years ago I had the opportunity to make transcripts of interviews with fathers who had children with very rare diseases and who the child had died. One thing that struck me in these interviews was the capacity of love of these parents. An enormous, grandiose compassion. And also the physical and mental capacity of these families who decided to give their lives to these children knowing that they would not live long. There were children who could have seizures 14 or 20 times a day. The parents had to be there day and night for them, the hospital visits were continuous and so were the emergency room visits. But these parents also showed enormous courage, extraordinary willpower, which was evident in the interviews. Not everyone is capable of that. They were also united couples.

Our individualistic, egocentric and egoistic culture makes a situation like this difficult. Some countries offer more help than others. The parents I am talking about lived in Quebec. The ideas about handicapped people have changed, of course, but it is still a story of a couple with a child.

We should not judge or criticize because what would we do in their place? It is complicated. We are not all heroes. I say that because the fathers in the interviews seemed to me to be real heroes.

We are all human and in this life we live what we have to live. Thank you for sharing this story Laurs. A story that gives a lot to think about.

I forgot to mention how these fathers learned from their child. How having that child was a great lesson in life and love.
 

Wandering Star

Dagobah Resident
The question i have i guess is what you all think would be the STO thing to do when it is discovered after 20 weeks of pregnancy that the baby has a severe form of spina bifide and specialist doctors paint a grim picture for the future if the decision is made to carry the baby to term and have it. I know there are physical handicaps and there may be mental handicaps, not sure.

The background to this question is that this is happening to a couple in my family. She is 20 weeks pregnant. After the elaborate 20-week scan this week it turns out that the baby she is carrying has a severe form of spina bifide. The couple had a consultation this past week with specialists who advised them that they could operate in vitro and help the baby in some way but in case they would opt to carry the baby to term he would be severely handicapped both physically and maybe mentally. Wow, some news as per the 16 week check up, they said that everything looked fine and healthy, but i understand that this is one of the reasons they perform this scan at the 20 week marker.

As per advise from the specialists, my family members have chosen to terminate the pregnancy and delivery will be induced this coming week, the baby shall be born and soon die thereafter. My heart goes out to them and the baby and i understand and respect their decision. I do find it interesting that everyone they talked to is in full agreement with their decision to terminate and the main arguments used seem to be:

- that it would be best for the child, who is predicted to have not much quality of life (of course seen through the lenses of the 'normal' people); and
- best for the parents, who are deemed to have a heavy burden to carry while not being able to have much quality of a 'normal life' anymore. These family members have no spiritual or religious interests.
- who are we to make the decision to terminate someone's life, that is a very scary thing to do? Unanswered
- what type of life will a severely handicapped person have? A lousy one
- what type of life will we have when caring for such a child? A very burdened one
- are we willing to make those sacrificies in terms of love, time, money? No

As I spoke to them on the phone yesterday (this would be 4 days after the news) i could not help but notice a bit that they are feeling mostly very sorry for themselves, that such a thing has been done to them, or has happened to them, why them, and now they have to go through this process and all, etc.

Okay back to the question. What would be the STO thing to do when taking the view that every situation offers opportunities for soul growth. In light of what the C's said in this session, it seems obvious that karma will be created by inducing the abortion.

Could the reasons they used to come to their decision come from the view, that the life of this child and the child itself, which i think is all chosen on a soul level with the mother, are viewed through 3D STS glasses as "imperfect" and therefore some sort of "error that needs to be fixed" as in a judgment towards the Universe that It has "delivered a broken piece of life", which needs to be terminated as it would clearly interfere with a (societal) concept of 'leading a quality life' both for child and parents? If viewed in this way, one would imagine that the karma generated, especially for the mother (?), would be considerable. Interestingly, while researching i found this article about a couple in the same position as my family members who took a completely different view and said somthing to the extent of, there is life, and that is precious in whatever form and life means always hope and they did what they could to make the situation as pleasant for everyone as possible and i think they succeeded very well. But it also seems one's marriage (and community) has to be really strong to pull such a thing off successfully. I am not sure my family members have that strong a bond.

It would seem to me that it would be more in line with STO to let the natural process run its course: carry the baby to term and accept without judgement what comes before one, especially when prepared, and taking responsibility as best as one can, like the couple from my research. If one were to follow this route, it seems to me that much karma would be resolved.

Of course I keep in mind that on the other hand, we can never know the mission of others and simplistically put, perhaps the mission of this baby was indeed to experience life generation in the womb for 20 weeks and that's that. And for the mother to experience having to go through this process of deliberately deciding to end someone's life and accruing karma. I have read a few times that children who die very young are often advanced souls contracting with the parents to teach them certain lessons.

Okay, thanks for taking the time to read this and i am interested in learning what anyone's thoughts are.
The main wisdom that I can contribute to this forum of "wise men" is that which I have from life experiences.

When I was 18 years old (now I am 50 years old) I was doing compulsory military service in my country.

With my girlfriend at the time (now my wife) I had my first sexual activity and after that first time, she became pregnant.

A huge blow.

The two without experience, without work, just a children, the future was seen as something difficult to overcome.

I didn't really think she had an abortion, but my girlfriend, her mother, and my mother decided.

They managed everything and my girlfriend performed the abortion.

The decision was purely selfish and I did not object to it.

Everything was solved and we continued with our lives.

Now when I think about it, I at least, should have thought more about it and communicated my opinion.

At least tell them that it was not what I considered correct.

Now, after "life" moved its strings, I have a son with my girlfriend from that time.

In the case you mention, the people who relate to the situation have to decide.

What a huge dilemma.

To do?

However, there is good, there is evil and the specific situation that defines it (I am paraphrasing).

Through the people that I have met, I have seen cases of girls who had sex with total nonchalance and then simply aborted. I knew the case of a girl who had already performed 8 abortions, and she was totally unconcerned about the matter.

A choice is put in our way ...

What will be the "choice?
 
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