Putin Recognizes Donbass Republics, Sends Russian Military to 'Denazify' Ukraine

This post is about a film:
A house for Russian culture wrote on their FB, that they are showing a Russian film about a soccer match in Kiev1942
We would like to invite you to the cinema with us, this Thursday, August 11 at 18.30. We understand that it is spontaneous, but the offer came unexpectedly, and the film is strong. August 9, 2022 marks the 80th anniversary of the football match, which took place in fascist-occupied Kiev, which later became known as the "Match of Death". On this day in 1942, the Soviet team Start won its second victory over the German team Flakelf. And the result of refusing to lose to the enemy was not only the victory cup...
From the Russian Wiki about Match (film, 2012) Матч (фильм, 2012)
Plot
Occupied Kyiv, 1942. Mykola Ranevich, the goalkeeper and star of Dynamo Kyiv, is losing his freedom, his girlfriend Anna and the opportunity to play football. Anna saves Nikolai from captivity.

The Germans arrange football matches between local teams and national teams of Wehrmacht units and their allies. Ranevich gathers his friends and takes the field again. A number of matches are held with the factory team 'Start' in which Ranevich plays at the gate, they all end in an unconditional victory for the Kyiv players. Before the last match (Start: Flakelf), the German commandant arrests Ranevich and orders him to yield to the Germans at any cost, but the circumstances are different...
And what do they say on the Ukrainian Wiki?
Match[1] (Russian: Match) is a 2012 Russian historical drama film. The film is based on the legend of the football 'death match' between Kyiv football players and the Luftwaffe anti-aircraft team in occupied Kyiv in the summer of 1942. Work on the picture ended in early 2012; in Russia, the premiere took place on May 1.

Since September 2014, the film has been banned for screening in Ukraine as propaganda.
The film tells about a football match in occupied Kyiv: after a game with the German team 'Flakelf' (from the words Flak-anti-aircraft gun and elf-eleven (players)), nine Kyiv football players were arrested by the Gestapo. Four of them were shot for allegedly refusing to lose the match. Other football players ended up in concentration camps.
The film at the Russian house is with English subtitles, but I have not been able to find them on the net. So this is Russian only.
Link to YouTube:
Oddly enough, there is a longer version on OK, but is that the same film? Or is that before editing. or a TV version?
On VK, someone asked if it is a film about love or soccer, another answered both.
Edit:
From Spanish Wiki:
Match1 or The Game (Матч in O.V.) is a 2012 Russian historical drama film directed by Andrey Malyukov.2

The film is based on what is known as the Match of Death, which pitted the Soviet team of FC Start (a team made up of retired players from Dinamo and Lokomotiv kyiv) against a German team made up of members of the Luftwaffe.

The premiere of the film was scheduled for April 26, 2012. However, such production raised controversy in Ukraine (host country of Euro 2012), for which the government requested that its premiere in the country be delayed until the end of the championship for fear of altercations.3

reception[edit]
Rekun-Cinema, the film's production company proposed that it be released on May 3. While they were waiting for a firm answer about its possible reproduction, Larisa Titarenko said that they would take 25 working days to study the film.3

One of the members of the commission of experts, Yaroslav Pidhora-Gvyazovskiy stated that he suggested the banning of the film because it could promote an ethnic conflict since the language spoken by most of the collaborators is Ukrainian while the opponents speak Russian.3

On the other hand, the political analyst Volodimir Fesenko declared that the film could trigger incidents between the fans of the Ukraine with the Teutonic ones.3
 
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I am slowly but surely understanding the angst of Poles towards Russia. Correct me if I am wrong.

It's not Russia per se that is the scary bit, it's the fear of going back in economic and cultural development that has been achieved over the last 20 or so years. Russia represents the Soviet days when the country was no where near as well off as it is now.
The economic progress Poland has made and opportunities it now offers its population including young people is undeniable. The proof is in the pudding as they say.
I don't want to "correct" anyone. I'll just offer a slightly different view based on objective facts.
The first fact is that Poland has been the largest "recipient" of resources from this organization since its accession to the EU. A few numbers.
Polish freebie
In order to get a little idea of the "economic miracle" of Poland, it is necessary to understand at least a little how much money is being given - it is being given - to Poland. Over the 10 years of EU membership, it has received 101.3 billion euros in aid under programs aimed at improving the standard of living and competitiveness of the Polish economy. This is indicated by the data of the Ministry of Finance of Poland. I would like to emphasize that we are talking about gratuitous subsidies - these are not loans - they are gifts. Which do not even need to be returned.
During the same time (the first 10 years) Poland has paid 33.3 billion euros to the EU's joint budget. That is, under this program alone, Poland will receive about 70 billion euros over 10 years. And the country is somewhat smaller than Ukraine and has a population of 38 million.

Since the beginning of 2014, Poles have already received 8.9 billion euros from the EU by May, having paid 2.4 billion euros to the budget (including 4.1 billion euros received in May and 350 million euros given). As UNIAN reported in 2014, Poland, which joined the European Union in May 2004, 38 million, remains the largest recipient of European aid among all 28 countries of the association. In the current seven-year budget for 2014-2020, 105.8 billion euros of assistance is provided for it.

Roughly speaking. According to the EU macro-financial assistance programs alone, Poland annually receives about 7-9 billion euros of gifts - this is taking into account the funds it transfers to these funds.

I am not specifically writing here about loans from the IMF and European banks, about other programs, including American injections in exchange for the placement of missile defense, etc. Poles perfectly monetized their Russophobia, earning the best in the EU on "loyalty to European values." Ukrainians really eat scraps from the master's table. Two Maidan protests and almost 9 years of degenerate power out of 25 "independent" years have clearly shown that slave psychology a la Bandera is not paid for worse - just giving exactly as much as morons are obliged to pay, taking into account interest for loans. Receiving in return a Ruin on half a million square kilometers. On which more than 52 million people recently lived.

Numbers - Польша за 10 лет получила от ЕС более 100 млрд евро помощи
Just in case, let me remind you that during the existence of the CMEA, everyone there were recipients of resources, including Poland. There was only one donor and he is well known.
The second fact is that Poland pursues the most Russophobic policy among the EU countries. Now a little reflection that will lead us to an explanation of the second fact. The question is whether a country chronically dependent on external resources can pursue a truly independent, sovereign policy. The answer is clear- no. Therein lies the answer. Knowing perfectly well who pays for everything, Poland is quite actively working out, namely, pursuing American interests both within the EU and in relation to everything else, including in domestic politics. In this sense, the current "fear" of Russia, as you call it, is nothing more than the result of this policy imposed from the outside, the result of persistently conducted propaganda. All this applies not only to Poland, but also to other countries in a similar situation (the entire Baltic States, Bulgaria, the countries of the former Yugoslavia). This is most clearly seen in Ukraine, when for 20 years the country has been "torn away" from Russia under external influence, without looking back at the reality of the existence of this country itself at the expense of Russian resources, and over the past 10 years to make some Ukrainians the worst enemies of Russia.
As for Poland, I recall the phrase attributed to Winston Churchill: And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.

The long-suffering Mariupol began to slowly rebuild
voenhronika.ru - Военная хроника

Я не хочу никого "поправлять". Просто предложу несколько другой взгляд, основанный на объективных фактах. Факт первый- Польша с самого своего вступления в ЕС является крупнейшим "реципиентом" ресурсов от этой организации. Немного цифр. На всякий случай напомню, что во время существования СЭВ, реципиентами ресурсов там были все, в том числе и Польша. Донор был один и он хорошо известен. Факт второй- Польша проводит наиболее русофобскую политику среди стран ЕС. Теперь немного размышления, которое нас приведет к объяснению второго факта. Вопрос, может ли страна, хронически зависящая от внешних ресурсов, проводить по настоящему независимую, суверенную политику. Ответ ясен- нет. В этом и кроется ответ. Прекрасно зная кто за все платит, Польша довольно активно отрабатывает, а именно проводит американские интересы и внутри ЕС и в отношении всего остального, в том числе во внутренней политике. Все это касается не только Польши, но и других стран, находящихся в подобной ситуации (Вся Прибалтика, Болгария, страны бывшей Югославии). В этом смысле нынешняя "боязнь" России, как вы это называете, является ничем иным, как результатом именно этой политики, навязанной извне, результатом упорно проводимой пропаганды. Наиболее отчетливо это видно на Украине, когда за 20 лет страну смогли "оттащить" от России не глядя на реальность существования самой этой страны за счет российских ресурсов, а за последние 10 лет сделать из части украинцев злейших врагов России.
Что касается Польши, то вспоминается фраза приписываемая Уинстону Черчиллю:
Многострадальный Мариуполь начал потихоньку отстраиваться
 
I don't want to "correct" anyone. I'll just offer a slightly different view based on objective facts.
The first fact is that Poland has been the largest "recipient" of resources from this organization since its accession to the EU. A few numbers.

Just in case, let me remind you that during the existence of the CMEA, everyone there were recipients of resources, including Poland. There was only one donor and he is well known.
The second fact is that Poland pursues the most Russophobic policy among the EU countries. Now a little reflection that will lead us to an explanation of the second fact. The question is whether a country chronically dependent on external resources can pursue a truly independent, sovereign policy. The answer is clear- no. Therein lies the answer. Knowing perfectly well who pays for everything, Poland is quite actively working out, namely, pursuing American interests both within the EU and in relation to everything else, including in domestic politics. In this sense, the current "fear" of Russia, as you call it, is nothing more than the result of this policy imposed from the outside, the result of persistently conducted propaganda. All this applies not only to Poland, but also to other countries in a similar situation (the entire Baltic States, Bulgaria, the countries of the former Yugoslavia). This is most clearly seen in Ukraine, when for 20 years the country has been "torn away" from Russia under external influence, without looking back at the reality of the existence of this country itself at the expense of Russian resources, and over the past 10 years to make some Ukrainians the worst enemies of Russia.
As for Poland, I recall the phrase attributed to Winston Churchill: And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.

The long-suffering Mariupol began to slowly rebuild
voenhronika.ru - Военная хроника

Я не хочу никого "поправлять". Просто предложу несколько другой взгляд, основанный на объективных фактах. Факт первый- Польша с самого своего вступления в ЕС является крупнейшим "реципиентом" ресурсов от этой организации. Немного цифр. На всякий случай напомню, что во время существования СЭВ, реципиентами ресурсов там были все, в том числе и Польша. Донор был один и он хорошо известен. Факт второй- Польша проводит наиболее русофобскую политику среди стран ЕС. Теперь немного размышления, которое нас приведет к объяснению второго факта. Вопрос, может ли страна, хронически зависящая от внешних ресурсов, проводить по настоящему независимую, суверенную политику. Ответ ясен- нет. В этом и кроется ответ. Прекрасно зная кто за все платит, Польша довольно активно отрабатывает, а именно проводит американские интересы и внутри ЕС и в отношении всего остального, в том числе во внутренней политике. Все это касается не только Польши, но и других стран, находящихся в подобной ситуации (Вся Прибалтика, Болгария, страны бывшей Югославии). В этом смысле нынешняя "боязнь" России, как вы это называете, является ничем иным, как результатом именно этой политики, навязанной извне, результатом упорно проводимой пропаганды. Наиболее отчетливо это видно на Украине, когда за 20 лет страну смогли "оттащить" от России не глядя на реальность существования самой этой страны за счет российских ресурсов, а за последние 10 лет сделать из части украинцев злейших врагов России.
Что касается Польши, то вспоминается фраза приписываемая Уинстону Черчиллю:
Многострадальный Мариуполь начал потихоньку отстраиваться
Whilst I don't disagree I feel that something is not being acknowledged. The "fear" of Russia Poles have is not recent. You can't ignore this fact. Why does the average pole fear Russia so much? Why?

You must acknowledge history. The answer surely can be found in history. This is not to say Russia is "bad" but it's also not to say Russia has always been good all the time.

Until Russia acknowledges its part in this history and reconciles with Poland I fear this divide will always exist. Poland will always be ripe for manipulation because of this scar.

Edit: I wish to not get into a debate about it. It's just a bit frustrating as I think perhaps, just perhaps, some people, perhaps a lot, suffered greatly under Soviet times and this isn't acknowledged as a cause to modern deep rooted fears and worries in places like Poland. Is it such a scandalous thought?
 
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I don't want to "correct" anyone. I'll just offer a slightly different view based on objective facts.
The first fact is that Poland has been the largest "recipient" of resources from this organization since its accession to the EU. A few numbers.

Just in case, let me remind you that during the existence of the CMEA, everyone there were recipients of resources, including Poland. There was only one donor and he is well known.
The second fact is that Poland pursues the most Russophobic policy among the EU countries. Now a little reflection that will lead us to an explanation of the second fact. The question is whether a country chronically dependent on external resources can pursue a truly independent, sovereign policy. The answer is clear- no. Therein lies the answer. Knowing perfectly well who pays for everything, Poland is quite actively working out, namely, pursuing American interests both within the EU and in relation to everything else, including in domestic politics. In this sense, the current "fear" of Russia, as you call it, is nothing more than the result of this policy imposed from the outside, the result of persistently conducted propaganda. All this applies not only to Poland, but also to other countries in a similar situation (the entire Baltic States, Bulgaria, the countries of the former Yugoslavia). This is most clearly seen in Ukraine, when for 20 years the country has been "torn away" from Russia under external influence, without looking back at the reality of the existence of this country itself at the expense of Russian resources, and over the past 10 years to make some Ukrainians the worst enemies of Russia.
As for Poland, I recall the phrase attributed to Winston Churchill: And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.

The long-suffering Mariupol began to slowly rebuild
voenhronika.ru - Военная хроника

Я не хочу никого "поправлять". Просто предложу несколько другой взгляд, основанный на объективных фактах. Факт первый- Польша с самого своего вступления в ЕС является крупнейшим "реципиентом" ресурсов от этой организации. Немного цифр. На всякий случай напомню, что во время существования СЭВ, реципиентами ресурсов там были все, в том числе и Польша. Донор был один и он хорошо известен. Факт второй- Польша проводит наиболее русофобскую политику среди стран ЕС. Теперь немного размышления, которое нас приведет к объяснению второго факта. Вопрос, может ли страна, хронически зависящая от внешних ресурсов, проводить по настоящему независимую, суверенную политику. Ответ ясен- нет. В этом и кроется ответ. Прекрасно зная кто за все платит, Польша довольно активно отрабатывает, а именно проводит американские интересы и внутри ЕС и в отношении всего остального, в том числе во внутренней политике. Все это касается не только Польши, но и других стран, находящихся в подобной ситуации (Вся Прибалтика, Болгария, страны бывшей Югославии). В этом смысле нынешняя "боязнь" России, как вы это называете, является ничем иным, как результатом именно этой политики, навязанной извне, результатом упорно проводимой пропаганды. Наиболее отчетливо это видно на Украине, когда за 20 лет страну смогли "оттащить" от России не глядя на реальность существования самой этой страны за счет российских ресурсов, а за последние 10 лет сделать из части украинцев злейших врагов России.
Что касается Польши, то вспоминается фраза приписываемая Уинстону Черчиллю:
Многострадальный Мариуполь начал потихоньку отстраиваться
Add some 80 billion dollars which Poland received in the 1990s, before it was EU member. Which makes Poland probably the most subsidised country on the Earth.

Polish pathological hatred towards Russia is irational. There is no reason for Poles to hate Russia bigger than East Germany, Romania or any other Warsaw pact country has. I think that the culprit is Vatican and the catholicism.
 
What happened at Saki air base in Crimea is still unknown. Satellite photos (see the linked article) show damage to planes, but not structures. The artile's conclusion: incident is unlikely, could be a drone attack or missiles: Widespread Destruction Seen After Blasts At Russian Base In Crimea
For all we know, probably all of that is fake news. It goes rational till the part that says: "local partisans (on Krimea) blow it off with home made weapons". Yeah right . . . .
 
Polish pathological hatred towards Russia is irational. There is no reason for Poles to hate Russia bigger than East Germany, Romania or any other Warsaw pact country has. I think that the culprit is Vatican and the catholicism.
Well done! As we say: he took it right off my tongue. But I'll use that word anyway. I've been writing this for too long.;-)

I wish to not get into a debate about it.
I also would not like to get involved in this discussion, but what you write is simply irrational and smacks of the same propaganda that I wrote about above, so I will answer. I apologize in advance for the verbosity, I wanted to be shorter, but it turned out...
Again, two points loom.
The first point is about history and about fears. Very strange, in my opinion, that the poor poles so afraid of Russia, and not afraid of Germany, which in a historical sense recently had the political regime which by program and document by racially motives deny the existence of Slavs in General and Poland in particular. And it wasn't pure theory. This regime was quite actively trying to achieve it goals in many ways, in particular by organizing many odious concentration camps on the territory of Poland, where people were destroyed industrially. Poles included, by the way. Russia has never done anything like this, but...
In this I see the irrationality and artificiality of such fears created by Western propaganda.
The second point is about the fact that Russia "must" and again about history. You write
Until Russia acknowledges its part in this history and reconciles with Poland I fear this divide will always exist. Poland will always be ripe for manipulation because of this scar.
But Russia has just no claims to Poland, as well as to all others. After all, Poland is exposing itself as a victim (and not the one whose victim it really was) on the one hand, and on the other hand, it is hatching plans to create a territory controlled by it "from sea to sea". Do you know what this is and what kind of sea is meant in the south?
Russia has nothing to "recognize" - everything has been recognized for a long time and there is nothing to pay for - everything has been paid for a long time and with interest. By the way, this concerns Poland more than others. Tragic mistakes like the stupid march of the Red Army on Warsaw in the 20s were paid for by more than a hundred thousand dead prisoners of the Red Army in Polish concentration camps and lost, albeit temporarily, territory. Polish "grandmothers" probably never told their grandchildren about this. During the "Soviet occupation" of the eastern lands, or as we say return of western Ukraine and Belarus, the figure of 150,000 dead is called. The figure is controversial, but okay, even so. Is it a lot or a little? Of course, a lot, but it must be correlated with the realities of that time. The total losses of Poland during the war are estimated at almost 6 million (including those 150 thousand attributed to the "Soviet occupation"). Where is the real nightmare? It was paid for by about 600,000 dead Soviet soldiers during the liberation of Poland from the Nazis, the post-war restoration of the economy at the expense of the USSR and the subsequent constant financial support, as well as the repeated cancellation of debts of "Soviet" Poland to the USSR.
Mr. Gomulka, who ruled post-war Poland, spoke of gratitude to the Soviet Union for turning Poland from an agrarian country into an agrarian-industrial one, and the notorious anti-Soviet and Russophobe Lech Walesa said at the dawn of his activity that the Polish people would never forget the feat of Soviet soldiers. Then, apparently, there were many living witnesses and participants around him, and it was dangerous to say something else, because they would not understand outright lies. Now he can even afford to call for a nuclear strike on Russia. As they say: everything flows-everything changes.
About the murders, rapes and robberies by the Red Army, which the Polish grandmother saw, we can say the following. The facts of all this must have been, which is a sin to conceal, but it can also be said for sure that it was not a mass phenomenon, because the military authorities punished it very severely, up to the point of execution. Mass in this sense can be called the extraction of things. Somewhere it was also in the form of theft, but they were also punished for it. Basically there was an exchange for food. The soldiers could not afford much, only what they could carry in a duffel bag or at most in a suitcase. The older ranks could afford more. The generals carried out things by cars and wagons, but even here there was a certain "order". There are cases of criminal convictions with deprivation of ranks and awards of combat generals precisely for excessive passion for such activities. Even the famous Marshal Georgy Zhukov was tried to be accused of such a thing, but in this case there was no formal conviction.
If you look more broadly, then for the vile behavior of the "allies" (I call a spade a spade), who delayed the opening of the "second front" until 1944 in the hope of exhausting the resources of the USSR as much as possible and spending their resources minimally and material assistance on the "lend-lease" of the USSR and then Russia paid and paid "up to kopecks" already in 2006. No one has forgiven us or written off anything. The Norwegians were given a piece of the sea with an area almost larger than Norway itself, the Americans were given a piece of the ocean with an area of two France, the Chinese were given an island for which our border guards died at the time. All with the best intentions, as a good neighbor. Who else needs what? However, not enough. On the other hand, they believe and actively propagandistically drive into the heads of ordinary people that Russia "owes" everything and everyone. Russia has now begun to actively fight against such a statement. The whole mess with Ukraine is Russia's defense of its interests in front of the pressing collective West. Poland, placing an American missile defense system on its territory, unfortunately, embarked on the same path. What will he lead her to? I don't know, but the further it goes, the clearer it becomes that Russia can no longer retreat or surrender - it will be torn apart, and therefore it will fight and at the same time some Ukraine or Poland will be able to come to their senses, some will not, but the struggle will end only when the forces promoting the idea that Russia "must"goes off.


Молодец! Как у нас говорят: прямо у меня с языка снял. Но я все равно применю это слово. Слишком долго я это писал.

Я тоже не хотел бы втягиваться в эту дискуссию, но то что вы пишете просто иррационально и попахивает той же самой пропагандой о которой я писал выше, поэтому отвечу. Заранее прошу прощения за многословие, хотел покороче, а вышло... Опять же вырисовываются два пункта.
Первый пункт – про историю и про страхи. Очень странно, на мой взгляд, что бедные поляки так боятся Россию и при этом совсем не боятся Германию, которая в историческом смысле совсем недавно имела политический режим программно и документально отказывавший в существовании по расовым мотивам славянам в целом и полякам в частности. И это не было чистой теорией. Указанный режим вполне деятельно пытался добиться поставленных целей многими способами, в частности организацией на территории Польши многих одиозных концентрационных лагерей, где люди уничтожались промышленным способом. Поляки в том числе, кстати. Россия и близко ничего подобного не делала, но… В этом я вижу иррациональность и искусственность подобных страхов, созданных западной пропагандой.
Второй пункт – про то, что Россия «должна» и опять про историю. Вы пишете
Но Россия то как раз никаких претензий к Польше, как и ко всем другим, не имеет. Это ведь Польша выставляет себя жертвой (при чем не того, чьей жертвой она была на самом деле) с одной стороны, а с другой стороны вынашивает планы создания, контролируемой ею территории «от моря до моря». Знаете что это и что за море имеется ввиду на юге?
России не чего «признавать»- все давно признано и не за что расплачиваться- все давно оплачено и с лихвой. Польшу это касается, кстати, больше чем других. Трагические ошибки вроде бестолкового похода Красной армии на Варшаву в 20х оплачены более чем сотней тысяч погибших пленных красноармейцев в польских концлагерях и потерянной, хоть и на время, территорией. Польские «бабушки» об этом наверняка никогда не рассказывали своим внукам. Во время «советской оккупации» восточных земель, а по нашему возвращения западной украины и белоруссии, называют цифру 150000 погибших. Цифра спорная, но ладно, пусть даже так. Много это или мало? Конечно же много, однако надо соотносить с реалиями того времени. Общие потери Польши во время войны оцениваются без малого в 6 миллионов (включая те самые 150 тыс. приписываемые «советской оккупации»). Где настоящий кошмар? Оплачено же это было примерно 600000 погибших советских солдат при освобождении Польши от гитлеровцев, послевоенном восстановлением хозяйства за счет СССР и последующем постоянном финансовым подпитыванием, а так же неоднократным списыванием долгов «советской» Польши перед СССР. Господин Гомулка, правивший послевоенной Польшей говорил о благодарности Советскому Союзу за превращение Польши из аграрной страны в аграрно-промышленную, а записной антисоветчик и русофоб Лех Валенса на заре своей деятельности говорил, что польский народ никогда не забудет подвиг советских солдат. Тогда еще видимо вокруг него было много живых свидетелей и участников и говорить что то другое было опасно, не поймут ведь откровенной лжи. Это теперь он может позволить себе даже призвать к ядерному удару по России. Как говорится: все течет-все меняется.
Про убийства, изнасилования и грабежи со стороны Красной армии, которые видела польская бабушка можно сказать следующее. Факты всего этого наверняка были, чего греха таить, но так же наверняка можно сказать, что это не было массовым явлением, потому что военные власти карали за это очень сурово, вплоть до расстрела. Массовым в этом смысле можно назвать добывание вещей. Где то это было и в виде воровства, но за это тоже наказывали. В основном был обмен на еду. Солдаты много позволить себе не могли, только то, что можно унести в вещьмешке или максимум в чемодане. Чины по старше могли себе позволить больше. Генералы возили машинами и вагонами, но и тут существовал некий «порядок». Известны случаи уголовного осуждения с лишением званий и наград боевых генералов именно за черезмерное увлечение подобной деятельностью. Даже знаменитого маршала Георгия Жукова пытались обвинить в подобном, но в этом случае формального осуждения не было.
Если смотреть шире, то за подлое поведение «союзников» (я называю вещи своими именами), тянувших с открытием «второго фронта» до 1944 года в надежде максимально истощить ресурсы СССР и по минимуму потратить своих ресурсов и материальную помощь по «ленд-лизу» СССР а потом и Россия расплачивалась и расплатилась «до копеечки» аж в 2006 году. Никто нам не простил и не списал ничего. Норвежцам отдали кусок моря по площади чуть ли не больше самой Норвегии, американцам отдали кусок океана площадью с две Франции, китайцам отдали остров, за который погибли наши пограничники в свое время. Все из лучших побуждений, в качестве добрососедства. Кому еще чего? Однако мало. С той стороны считают и активно пропагандистски вбивают в головы обывателей, что Россия «должна» все и всем. Россия же сейчас начала активно бороться с такой постановкой. Вся катавасия с Украиной это защита России своих интересов перед напирающим собирательным Западом. Польша, размещая на своей территории американскую ПРО, к сожалению, встала на тот же самый путь. К чему он ее приведет? Не знаю, но чем дальше, тем яснее становится то, что России отступать или сдаваться уже нельзя- разорвут, а поэтому она будет бороться и при этом какие то украины или польши сумеют одуматься, какие то нет, но борьба закончится только тогда, когда канут в лету силы, продвигающие идеи о том, что Россия «должна».
 
Well done! As we say: he took it right off my tongue. But I'll use that word anyway. I've been writing this for too long.;-)


I also would not like to get involved in this discussion, but what you write is simply irrational and smacks of the same propaganda that I wrote about above, so I will answer. I apologize in advance for the verbosity, I wanted to be shorter, but it turned out...





Молодец! Как у нас говорят: прямо у меня с языка снял. Но я все равно применю это слово. Слишком долго я это писал.

Я тоже не хотел бы втягиваться в эту дискуссию, но то что вы пишете просто иррационально и попахивает той же самой пропагандой о которой я писал выше, поэтому отвечу. Заранее прошу прощения за многословие, хотел покороче, а вышло... Опять же вырисовываются два пункта.
Первый пункт – про историю и про страхи. Очень странно, на мой взгляд, что бедные поляки так боятся Россию и при этом совсем не боятся Германию, которая в историческом смысле совсем недавно имела политический режим программно и документально отказывавший в существовании по расовым мотивам славянам в целом и полякам в частности. И это не было чистой теорией. Указанный режим вполне деятельно пытался добиться поставленных целей многими способами, в частности организацией на территории Польши многих одиозных концентрационных лагерей, где люди уничтожались промышленным способом. Поляки в том числе, кстати. Россия и близко ничего подобного не делала, но… В этом я вижу иррациональность и искусственность подобных страхов, созданных западной пропагандой.
Второй пункт – про то, что Россия «должна» и опять про историю. Вы пишете
Но Россия то как раз никаких претензий к Польше, как и ко всем другим, не имеет. Это ведь Польша выставляет себя жертвой (при чем не того, чьей жертвой она была на самом деле) с одной стороны, а с другой стороны вынашивает планы создания, контролируемой ею территории «от моря до моря». Знаете что это и что за море имеется ввиду на юге?
России не чего «признавать»- все давно признано и не за что расплачиваться- все давно оплачено и с лихвой. Польшу это касается, кстати, больше чем других. Трагические ошибки вроде бестолкового похода Красной армии на Варшаву в 20х оплачены более чем сотней тысяч погибших пленных красноармейцев в польских концлагерях и потерянной, хоть и на время, территорией. Польские «бабушки» об этом наверняка никогда не рассказывали своим внукам. Во время «советской оккупации» восточных земель, а по нашему возвращения западной украины и белоруссии, называют цифру 150000 погибших. Цифра спорная, но ладно, пусть даже так. Много это или мало? Конечно же много, однако надо соотносить с реалиями того времени. Общие потери Польши во время войны оцениваются без малого в 6 миллионов (включая те самые 150 тыс. приписываемые «советской оккупации»). Где настоящий кошмар? Оплачено же это было примерно 600000 погибших советских солдат при освобождении Польши от гитлеровцев, послевоенном восстановлением хозяйства за счет СССР и последующем постоянном финансовым подпитыванием, а так же неоднократным списыванием долгов «советской» Польши перед СССР. Господин Гомулка, правивший послевоенной Польшей говорил о благодарности Советскому Союзу за превращение Польши из аграрной страны в аграрно-промышленную, а записной антисоветчик и русофоб Лех Валенса на заре своей деятельности говорил, что польский народ никогда не забудет подвиг советских солдат. Тогда еще видимо вокруг него было много живых свидетелей и участников и говорить что то другое было опасно, не поймут ведь откровенной лжи. Это теперь он может позволить себе даже призвать к ядерному удару по России. Как говорится: все течет-все меняется.
Про убийства, изнасилования и грабежи со стороны Красной армии, которые видела польская бабушка можно сказать следующее. Факты всего этого наверняка были, чего греха таить, но так же наверняка можно сказать, что это не было массовым явлением, потому что военные власти карали за это очень сурово, вплоть до расстрела. Массовым в этом смысле можно назвать добывание вещей. Где то это было и в виде воровства, но за это тоже наказывали. В основном был обмен на еду. Солдаты много позволить себе не могли, только то, что можно унести в вещьмешке или максимум в чемодане. Чины по старше могли себе позволить больше. Генералы возили машинами и вагонами, но и тут существовал некий «порядок». Известны случаи уголовного осуждения с лишением званий и наград боевых генералов именно за черезмерное увлечение подобной деятельностью. Даже знаменитого маршала Георгия Жукова пытались обвинить в подобном, но в этом случае формального осуждения не было.
Если смотреть шире, то за подлое поведение «союзников» (я называю вещи своими именами), тянувших с открытием «второго фронта» до 1944 года в надежде максимально истощить ресурсы СССР и по минимуму потратить своих ресурсов и материальную помощь по «ленд-лизу» СССР а потом и Россия расплачивалась и расплатилась «до копеечки» аж в 2006 году. Никто нам не простил и не списал ничего. Норвежцам отдали кусок моря по площади чуть ли не больше самой Норвегии, американцам отдали кусок океана площадью с две Франции, китайцам отдали остров, за который погибли наши пограничники в свое время. Все из лучших побуждений, в качестве добрососедства. Кому еще чего? Однако мало. С той стороны считают и активно пропагандистски вбивают в головы обывателей, что Россия «должна» все и всем. Россия же сейчас начала активно бороться с такой постановкой. Вся катавасия с Украиной это защита России своих интересов перед напирающим собирательным Западом. Польша, размещая на своей территории американскую ПРО, к сожалению, встала на тот же самый путь. К чему он ее приведет? Не знаю, но чем дальше, тем яснее становится то, что России отступать или сдаваться уже нельзя- разорвут, а поэтому она будет бороться и при этом какие то украины или польши сумеют одуматься, какие то нет, но борьба закончится только тогда, когда канут в лету силы, продвигающие идеи о том, что Россия «должна».

"Irrational" that is an interesting word. It reminds me of what an atheist would say to the majority of humans who believe in something higher than materialism, perhaps a God, perhaps an afterlife etc. They say, all these people are irrational in their beliefs.

It is a comforting argument, isn't it. Makes the atheist feel rational, a man of science, a man who understands the world, a man in control of their emotions. On the other hand, those being accused of being "irrational" are still somewhat undeveloped, their emotions rule them, they belief in fairy tales perhaps to placate their fear etc. This is what the "rational" man would like to believe indeed.

The argument I would always have is, you can't just brush millions upon millions of people with one word, irrational. Even the people overtaken with hysterical fear of covid and will willingly take a jab every 3 months. Their view is not irrational, their is actual logical forces that drive this behaviour and worldview if one cared to look and understand.

So I repeat again, the fear of Poles towards Russia is not without reason. Dismissing the economic development they have achieved doesn't negate this. Calling me or them irrational doesn't negate this.

Romania didn't occupy Poland for decades, Russia did. That's a FACT. I understand you are Russian and so you may want not to consider that perhaps, similar to the US and the countries it occupied historically, some of the people your country occupied may not necessarily see you as a willing helper but may have doubts. This is called a normal human reaction due to the trauma inflicted on them by guess who, your country. I am looking forward to seeing how you deny Russia's historical occupation of Poland. 😶

By the way, the absurdity of this debate is crazy - I'm forced to defend Poland and its people to you without myself being a Pole only because your absolute denial or unwillingness to even acknowledge any role Russia may have played to contribute to the situation is well, an insult to conscience - at least mine. Call me guilty.

Note, in all I have said, I have not denied that Poles, due to this scar, are now taken advantage off by Western forces, including US, perhaps UK, to maintain or play a key role in this ongoing conflict of the West with Russia. No one denies the conflict is driven by psychopaths sat in Washington, New York, London, Paris, Brussels etc who know how to take advantage of people and perhaps their traumas.

Poland is a beautiful country, the Poles are a beautiful people. They are not irrational. No more irrational than any other people at least. Their, I said it. 😜
 
I think I should also just say something else. Amongst Poles in the grip of irrational fear, I do defend Russia, at least modern Russia. So it's funny how I defend Poland to a Russian, and Russia to a Pole. 😅 In trying to understand where the fear comes from, it's quite clearly from Soviet occupation of Poland over 40 years or so. I have seen the monstrosities in infrastructure the Soviets built or attempted to build in Poland, it's undeniably ugly, industrial and without soul. During communist times there was talk of shortages of nearly everything, life was different and I am yet to hear anyone say it was better. It is however not as bad as we are led to believe but certainly not as good as Soviets would have us believe either. Contraband got in, people found a way to live and survive as humans have always done.

Of course modern Russia is different but I understand a lot of the cities are still stuck in a time capsule and in need of modernisation, but in all these, I have never actually seen modern Russia trying to like you know, say "Guys, can we apologise for what we did? We can't undo the past but we can learn from it and definitely make sure such things never happen again etc etc". To Poles I would say, perhaps accept the apology if it was ever sent and perhaps acknowledge the effects of trauma and work to heal, it's not healthy to hold hate in your heart for so long. Hate eats away at you eventually but if the hate is borne from trauma one must acknowledge how difficult and challenging it will be to heal.
 
I think I should also just say something else. Amongst Poles in the grip of irrational fear, I do defend Russia, at least modern Russia. So it's funny how I defend Poland to a Russian, and Russia to a Pole. 😅 In trying to understand where the fear comes from, it's quite clearly from Soviet occupation of Poland over 40 years or so. I have seen the monstrosities in infrastructure the Soviets built or attempted to build in Poland, it's undeniably ugly, industrial and without soul. During communist times there was talk of shortages of nearly everything, life was different and I am yet to hear anyone say it was better. It is however not as bad as we are led to believe but certainly not as good as Soviets would have us believe either. Contraband got in, people found a way to live and survive as humans have always done.

Of course modern Russia is different but I understand a lot of the cities are still stuck in a time capsule and in need of modernisation, but in all these, I have never actually seen modern Russia trying to like you know, say "Guys, can we apologise for what we did? We can't undo the past but we can learn from it and definitely make sure such things never happen again etc etc". To Poles I would say, perhaps accept the apology if it was ever sent and perhaps acknowledge the effects of trauma and work to heal, it's not healthy to hold hate in your heart for so long. Hate eats away at you eventually but if the hate is borne from trauma one must acknowledge how difficult and challenging it will be to heal.
And everybody lived happily ever after in child stories maybe, in reality it does not function that way, there are decades of brainwashing and hatred involved, even more then in Ukraine and see how that ended up. And what does Russia have with Soviet Union is beyond me, that is that subjective concept seeing itself as victim for political purposes as always(and through history every country was a victim and agressor under different circumstances given the chance like was with Poland) while I see from history and facts that Russians suffered even more under Soviet Union that was western sabotage against Russia in a way, then others like Polish that suffered much more under Nazi Germany and that is not mentioned because geopolitics. But we are dealing with what is happening now not what happened 50 years ago or more, different times different people, like I am going to apologise for something I did not do but someone other of my countrymen and family did it in the past?
Poland is a beautiful country, the Poles are a beautiful people. They are not irrational. No more irrational than any other people at least. Their, I said it. 😜
Like every other country and every other normal people until they are pathologised beyond repair that depends always on leadership.
 
And everybody lived happily ever after in child stories maybe, in reality it does not function that way, there are decades of brainwashing and hatred involved, even more then in Ukraine and see how that ended up. And what does Russia have with Soviet Union is beyond me, that is that subjective concept seeing itself as victim for political purposes as always(and through history every country was a victim and agressor under different circumstances given the chance like was with Poland) while I see from history and facts that Russians suffered even more under Soviet Union that was western sabotage against Russia in a way, then others like Polish that suffered much more under Nazi Germany and that is not mentioned because geopolitics. But we are dealing with what is happening now not what happened 50 years ago or more, different times different people, like I am going to apologise for something I did not do but someone other of my countrymen and family did it in the past?

Like every other country and every other normal people until they are pathologised beyond repair that depends always on leadership.
When I ask a Pole why he hates Russia or Putin he can't answer. All he knows is to hate. If I press him to justify it he talks about communism gulags and Bolsheviks, but no details. This hatred is 100% a product of propaganda. In fact, in history, Russians have things on their conscience against Poland as well as vice versa.
Looking at the behavior of my compatriots-flying a Ukrainian flag on their house with the words "-flick- Putin"-I find that Poles are deeply hypnotized.
Hatred of Russia is a pathology, it is a product of the pathocracy in my country.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
And everybody lived happily ever after in child stories maybe, in reality it does not function that way, there are decades of brainwashing and hatred involved, even more then in Ukraine and see how that ended up. And what does Russia have with Soviet Union is beyond me, that is that subjective concept seeing itself as victim for political purposes as always(and through history every country was a victim and agressor under different circumstances given the chance like was with Poland) while I see from history and facts that Russians suffered even more under Soviet Union that was western sabotage against Russia in a way, then others like Polish that suffered much more under Nazi Germany and that is not mentioned because geopolitics. But we are dealing with what is happening now not what happened 50 years ago or more, different times different people, like I am going to apologise for something I did not do but someone other of my countrymen and family did it in the past?

Like every other country and every other normal people until they are pathologised beyond repair that depends always on leadership.

Lol, what does Russia have to do with Soviet Union? 🥴

Time to stop this line of discussion ⛔
 
'MOSCOW, August 12. /TASS/. The deputy chairman of Russia’s Security Council, Dmitry Medvedev, has accused the Ukrainian authorities and the West of an attempt to stage a Chernobyl-like disaster'

"The scumbags in Kiev and their Western backers seem to be ready to stage another Chernobyl. Rockets and shells are falling ever closer to the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant’s reactors and radioactive isotope storage facilities," Medvedev wrote on his Telegram channel on Friday. He dismissed the allegations Russia was behind these attacks as "one-hundred-percent nonsense."

"Even the UN does not believe this," Medvedev stressed.

Article below:

 
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