Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Voyageur

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Apparently JP is on the defensive simply labeling anyone who makes a criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. I don't know, it's the first time I've seen this in him.
I also wonder, too, if JP would enjoy discussions with guys like Finkelstein and Atzmon. He well might, don't know.

I'm now guessing he might not, and they are Jewish people and not anonymous, however dubbed self-hating.

The context here is in not knowing what constitutes JP saying what he said - to who and for what comments, because some people can take it to extremes. Then again, many have tried to have civil discourse around issues that warrant criticism of Israel, justified criticism, only to be excoriated and tared and feathered. Thus if there is one thing pretty much everyone knows, you can't criticize Israel in the main and expect not to be taken to task.

So there is a chain of associations here, where the meaning of his life - and his struggle against nihilism and chaos - is tied to his love of the West and his Christian understanding, which is tied to Judaism as he understands it, which is tied to Israel's existence as the anchor of Judaism. All this might lead him towards a certain romanticization towards Israel, and to feel protective over it in the face of all of these massive global changes. Its common in times of chaos for people to turn to tradition. Maybe we got a glimpse of this in the video (linked above) of him imploring an Israeli audience with tears in his eyes that 'the world needs Jerusalem!' For him, at this point in his life, it may also be some sort of metaphysical anchor.

Yes, that could well be.
 

truepositive

Padawan Learner
I had struggles with shit and no one publicly noticed. Why are we putting someone on a pedestal for doing what most of us are doing from a non-privileged position?
Jordan is doing the right thing now and i appreciate that but lets have a little orbital overview of 'public speakers' in the last 2.5 years;
they generally failed the litmus test really -flicking-g hard.
Mostly everyone clinged to their status and finances and sold out. I -flicking-g cringe every time i see a Sadhguru comment section these days. Tony Robbins got rebellious for 3 whole weeks then packed it in, Eckhart had one sharp podcast and went back to business as usual.

Im gonna need more than a few soothing words to convince me anyone in his sphere is ready to take a meaningful stance to what is happening right now. Also he seems to think he is close to some kind of penultimate philosophical argument just because he talks to Vervaeke often, which is ludicrous. As an unemployed bum without official titles i am way ahead of him on the metaphysical front.
Earning me not even a dry spaghetti.
 

Bluegazer

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Peterson is alarmed at how all of these structures are under attack in a sort of metaphysical civil war by the forces of nihilism and chaos, which may lead him to be very protective over these foundations of the West.

Well, in principle I saw it that way. But looking at other tweets and the responses...I mean...hard to tell if it's Peterson himself writing those tweets because it's quite far from the Peterson of calm responses, there's some vitriol. Something out of place. Maybe it's their community manager.

On the esoteric note, though, given all the good he has done in the world, maybe he got pinged by portal energies or looked too deeply into Bibi's eyes when he was there...

It is a very big possibility. I believe it was Laura who at some point commented on Peterson's lack of knowledge of esoteric matters.
 

Esote

Jedi Council Member
I had struggles with shit and no one publicly noticed. Why are we putting someone on a pedestal for doing what most of us are doing from a non-privileged position?
Jordan is doing the right thing now and i appreciate that but lets have a little orbital overview of 'public speakers' in the last 2.5 years;
they generally failed the litmus test really -flicking-g hard.
Mostly everyone clinged to their status and finances and sold out. I -flicking-g cringe every time i see a Sadhguru comment section these days. Tony Robbins got rebellious for 3 whole weeks then packed it in, Eckhart had one sharp podcast and went back to business as usual.

Im gonna need more than a few soothing words to convince me anyone in his sphere is ready to take a meaningful stance to what is happening right now. Also he seems to think he is close to some kind of penultimate philosophical argument just because he talks to Vervaeke often, which is ludicrous. As an unemployed bum without official titles i am way ahead of him on the metaphysical front.
Earning me not even a dry spaghetti.
Please truepositive, use simple words and ways of expressing yourself, in order that what you say would be more understandable...
 

Ben

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I had struggles with shit and no one publicly noticed. Why are we putting someone on a pedestal for doing what most of us are doing from a non-privileged position?
Jordan is doing the right thing now and i appreciate that but lets have a little orbital overview of 'public speakers' in the last 2.5 years;

This keeps coming up. Who is being put on a pedestal here? By who? As far as I can see people who have something to offer are simply being given their due. Many of them have blind spots, as do we all. Without a well functioning network of people they are practically unavoidable. Even with that network going up against the system of power in this world opens people to up to all sorts of attack. Anyone in a position of public speaker has to tread carefully enough to avoid triggering those attacks (practically impossible on certain subjects, Israel being one of them).

Until we've tried it I think it is unfair to criticise these people too heavily. Conscious liars and manipulators, and useful idiots, are a whole different story.
 

Benjamin

Dagobah Resident
Are you familiar with the Girl Guides or Girl Scouts? It's a world wide organization like Boy Scouts. Well, it's divided according to age:

Sparks- 5 & 6
Brownies- 7 & 8
Guides- 9-11
Pathfinders- 12-16
Rangers- 15-17

From the wiki as to where the name 'Brownies' came from:


Now, in Canada, 'Brownies' is getting a name change because the original Scottish folklore association has no meaning anymore.

Just a little follow-up I noticed on the 'Brownies' name change. There are two choices left that have gone to a public vote. I thought the second choice was an interesting one and wondered if it would still be of consideration if the history of comets was known, unless they're going for the 'eight year old girl streaks into room completely destroying it in a whirlwind screaming frenzy' vibe. But I doubt it.

Embers may be small but they’re full of potential! They have energy within them just waiting to be unleashed, and when they work together, they can ignite a powerful flame.

Comets inspire as they travel through space, reflecting light and boldly blazing a trail. If you keep your eyes on the night sky, they might even surprise you with a meteor shower.
 

mkrnhr

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I thought the second choice was an interesting one and wondered if it would still be of consideration if the history of comets was known, unless they're going for the 'eight year old girl streaks into room completely destroying it in a whirlwind screaming frenzy' vibe. But I doubt it.
The popular definition of comets is "dirty snowballs" so who knows what they really mean 🤔
 

Yupo

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Someone in Moore County, NC (Pinehurst area) was said to be upset enough about about a drag show as to take shots at a couple of substations. Power is expected to be out until Thursday (about 5 days of outage). According to one of the comments, the show (from "House of Coxx" out of Durham) was to be open to children and there was widespread community objection. I don't know if the power interruption was timed to interrupt the show or not.


 

anartist

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Matt Ridley go in depth to explore the Covid 19 outbreak, scrutinizing the lack of criticism, the inherent red flags widely accepted as benign, the possible motive for a multi-government cover up, and ultimately the demise of the scientific enlightenment as it bends to a more fearsome pandemic: totalitarianism. Matt Ridley is a British writer, journalist, and public speaker. His books collectively have sold over a million copies, and have been translated into 31 languages. His books include The Red Queen, The Origins of Virtue, Genome, Nature via Nurture, Francis Crick, The Rational Optimist, The Evolution of Everything, and How Innovation Works. He is also frequently published in the Wall Street Journal, and in the Times (London), as a columnist. As a speaker, Ridley has seen over two million views for his TED talk, “When Ideas Have Sex.” Ridley focuses on the area of science for his writings, and held the role of science editor at the Economist for nine years.

Jordan and Matt talk about the spirit of enlightenment and enquiry, knowledge, truth, and the trajectory towards totalitarianism aided by post-modernism.
 

Voyageur

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Thanks, it is long and will give this its due (it might be better in the Covid thread?).

Ridley focuses on the area of science for his writings, and held the role of science editor at the Economist for nine years.

According to wiki, this was first (1984) as science editor, then Washington DC correspondent, followed by American editor until 1992.

Following his time at the Economist:

From 2010 to 2013, Ridley wrote the weekly "Mind and Matter" column for The Wall Street Journal, which "explores the science of human nature and its implications".

Since 2013, Ridley has written a weekly column for The Times on science, the environment, and economics.

Ridley wrote the majority of the main article of the August 2017 edition of BBC Focus magazine.[20] The article explains his scepticism regarding resource depletion, challenging the widespread belief that resource depletion is an important issue. He cites various previous resource scares as his evidence.

By the way, he is the 5th Viscount of Ridley.

Started watching and have noticed on my end (might be a CRTC thing, probably a government deal with YT), this hovers in the background of controversial talks on Covid:

1670304452373.png

At one point, Ridley discusses the wildlife/virus/sequencing database that was being maintained in China, and Wuhan in particular (the talk is focused on China - with some US money, as is know), wherein on September 12th, 2019 the database went offline and has never come back online. When asked to see the data that was originally shared, the Chinese said in answer that there are concerns that it might be hacked. This centers on the noted observation that there is no real tie with SARS-Cov and bats in the database, but they won't show it, Ridley seems to say.

Will have to listen to more as there are many ways to look at this, in a number of political directions (and don't forget Fort Detrick).

As an aside, Ridley offered this Tweet a few years ago (and retweets on AGW nonsense):

 
Last edited:

Seppo Ilmarinen

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Well, this interview of Netanyahu certainly wasn't Peterson's brightest moments. I watched about 40 minutes through and it's mostly monologue by Netanyahy ranting and making various outrageous claims about the history of Palestine, which Peterson just lets pass totally unchallenged. Occasional commercials pausing the interview were icing on the cake, couldn't help but laugh at times at the whole charade.

Not that I was expecting him to challenge Netanyahy in any meaningful way, it just shows the way popular figures can be vectored to serve nefarious agendas if they don't pay enough attention to their biases. It will be interesting to see if Peterson will ever tackle his blind spots regarding Israel and Palestine, as he has shown to learn and adjust his thinking in the past.

The positive side of this interview is that Netanyahy can't help himself and comes off as totally unreasonable character - which he of course is - and exposes his inner landscape to wider audience, who I doubt will find his rhetorics too convincing; he is so over the top with his claims (e.g palestinians are the real colonizers and those primitive arabs didn't build anything to the land in the past centuries, in fact there was hardly anything there at all) that it likely has the opposite effect, at least based on the comment section.

 

Voyageur

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Well, this interview of Netanyahu certainly wasn't Peterson's brightest moments.

This interview came out of the Daily Wire, who had this to say:

Does Israel have the Right to Exist? | PM-Elect Benjamin Netanyahu​

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast•Dec 5, 2022
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Israel Prime Minister-Elect Benjamin Netanyahu discuss the history of Israel, its status as an embattled nation, the importance of the struggle for statehood, why and how the PM came back from political demise, and his vision for the future.
Benjamin Netanyahu was recently reelected as Prime Minister of Israel, having previously served in the office from 1996–1999 and 2009–2021. From 1967–1972 he served as a soldier and commander in Sayeret Matkal, an elite special forces unit of the Israeli Defense Forces. A graduate of MIT, he served as Israel’s Ambassador to the United Nations from 1984–1988, before being elected to the Israeli parliament as a member of the Likud party in 1988. He has published five previous books on terrorism and Israel’s quest for peace and security. He lives in Jerusalem with his wife, Sara. In his newest book "Bibi: My Story" the newly reelected prime minister of Israel tells the story of his family, the story of his people, his path to leadership, and his unceasing commitment to defending his country and securing its future.

Watched (Bibi being Bibi), with the following being what I got out of it (paraphrasing below):

JP states right off to Bibi, of his own internal ignorance of the development of Israel. Bibi is happy to enlighten.

Bibi plays the Moses card as an anchor point, says not much about the Roman's, then segues into the Arabs, the landed "colonialists" who really took over the land but did noting with it. Of the land, it has been ours for 3,500 years, making an analogy of once being kicked out of their apartment. It is all a perversion of history to say otherwise, Bibi mentions.

"You can actually Google this..." regarding Palestine being here. This history is all based on historical ignorance (an invention), while offering up words by Mark Twain who visited Palestine saying it was a wasteland. However, now we came back and build up the barren lands - brought back to life. No one else ever did this.

"We are not the Belgium's in the Congo" et cetera

JP Brings up valid legal ownership (British Law) like squatters who come along. This was countered by Bibi; they being kicked out after 2,000 years (replaying the apartment analogy), then, again, the Arabs took over and did nothing, then we came back. The rest is history he seemed to be saying.

Mentions the Six Day War, their push back for their little country. It's the "persistent Arab refusal" to recognize Israel and his efforts at peace agreements with Palestine been the hold out, which makes peace with the other Arabs not possible. The answer was, so "I went around the Palestinians to make peace with them (Arabs) - they could see the growth and power of Israel."

(sponsor from Black Rifle Coffee)

JP brings up the Balfour declaration support - how it developed. Bibi said the propaganda at the time did not work in history, and the Bible has the skinny on it - intellectuals know this.

Theodor Herzl is brought up, as was Bibi's daddy.

Most anti-Semitism came from Stalin, Bibi said.

The British backed off of the offer of a Homeland (not Israel at the earlier time).

Abraham accord (building economic powerhouse).

Then the Nazis, which he spends no time on.

"My purpose in life, inherited by my grandfather, father, my fallen brother" (historic). "I inherited from them a purpose..." et cetera, to build and hold the Israeli state.

Bibi in his book 'Bibi,' looks to briefly recounting his time in the army, in the special unit, with his amazing exploits - and history and visions.

Bibi looks to the "power combination" - military, commerce, community, health - the first to lead covid because of our databases that we developed with the population. And the first to leave covid."

Back to peace treaties, mentioning how Arabs fly over our nations, and how Arabs and Jews now dance in the streets. Peace with Saudi Arabia is our key, more or less.

(sponsor JP's new series 'Exodus' - Daily Wire)

JP asks about the Israeli economic front. Bibi evokes the Clintonites - never letting a crises go to waste. As for the DOT Com, education is "hogwash" (using Russia as a backdrop), basically he was looking at liberating commerce (private sector). His vison, saying his people were awash in false economics, then with mention of his press conference (reminiscing back to the army) - the Fat Man/Thin Man argument - Fat at the top goes on diet, Thin man gets oxygen as equated to the State dynamic (FAT) and private sector (Thin). "I did all this in a crises" and he said "I paid heavily and almost disappeared from politics."

Discusses coming back from political death. Of the story of his life, he says it was to bring into vision "This vision of Israel, of a powerful state that has this tremendously creative economy, along with a power full military. Opening the door with peace to its neighbors" (then the Iran question threat from all countries, Canada included).

JP discusses Bibi's work with other leaders - what is it that they are pursuing, this drive for power (not guiding principles, which Bibi says he has that is different from the power others seek). Bibi almost said Draconian of others (dra)..., yet quickly changes directions.

A lesson on good and bad, history has been ruled from the good and the bad, just look at Genghis Khan with his armies and "subjugation".

Our darkest forces are in Iran, that "horrible regime" - citing all the people in Iran dying, what it is doing to those "incredibly" brave men and woman dying on the streets, ruled by these Ayatollahs, these thugs, these "theological thugs" with nuclear weapons and the means to deliver "them" to every part of the earth. Prevention is an ongoing thing, Bibi said. "The jury is still out, not guaranteed".

Back to the Abraham accord, JP asks more about the path forward. Bibi brings up the Saudis, the influence is in a category in their own. He speaks of the changes made with the Middle East, "the quantum leap" in 2015 with Obama. Bibi heads there to make a speech, he is all about the speech prep ("my sinuses are clogged," he says practicing his speech), and came to Washington to challenge Obama with clogged sinus. Remarkably, like the parting of the sea, his sinus clear and his speech was beautiful. During the speech, Bibi's people got phone calls from the Saudis who could not believe he was challenging Obama - to recap:


Bibi persuaded congress and Obama (it took three years with Obama, as he said Obama looed to be going down the "Palestinian Rabbit Hole" until he figured it out).

Trump was different, Bibi to him was to just come, bring your aircraft carrier even, I've three peace treaties to negotiate, Bibi was saying.

Bibi - Peace is coming.

JP asks, what about the Biden team, what is going on with the Saudi/Israel peace accord, and why has this process been stalled. Bibi goes into that fact that Biden and Bibi have been old time 40-year friends, then brings up the Palestinian "straightjacket" problem of thinking. The second reason being that the Saudis need to modernize and reach out to their people, and they want to protect - more to discuss and don't want to be specific, he was saying.

Nutshell.
 

Benjamin

Dagobah Resident

I enjoyed this (almost 2 hr.) interview. I think all the covid stuff at the beginning has been discussed already here but it was a good refresher to have it laid out in a orderly fashion with insights as to what makes covid tick and the cover-up. Later on, the conversation progressed toward the demise of science; as totalitarianism rises, wonder and awe dies. I liked Ridley's story in the section "The demise of the enlightenment" at 1:11:13 which kicks off that discussion.

I wasn't actually planning on making a post about this video. I only originally transcribed a section just so I could see it. It was so fast and complex listening to it that I needed to slow it down. It's wordy and I'm pretty sure I'm still not getting it. Nevertheless, after typing it out I thought it would be a waste to delete it so, taa-daa. And then I transcribed a few more. As interesting as Peterson is, I kinda wished he would take a bit more of a back seat and let Ridley speak a little more in the latter third.

At 1:36:00, Peterson provided his perspective on the, I guess, founding principle of Genesis.

Peterson: All things considered, there is nothing that's more liberating then the truth. And, Matt, I think that's the core doc- I do believe- that's the core doctrine upon which Judaeo-Christian society itself is founded because the doctrine of the divine word is something like this, as far as I've been able to tell. It's something like: 'The proper action of the consciousness that liberates us is the forthright confrontation with possibility itself, with potential itself, and the willingness to confront that head-on in truth. And the consequence of that confrontation is the construction of the habitable world that is good.' That seems to me to be the doctrine of the word at the beginning of Genesis. And there's a notion there that human beings, men and women alike, are made in that image. ...

There is much more after this. For example at 1:45:09:
Perterson: ... And so, I'm afraid that this battle- and you already made allusions to this- this continuing battle between those who profess religious belief in the most fundamental sense, and those who profess scientific belief, is blinding us to the fact that there is an enterprise afoot that will bring both down.

Ridley: Absolutely. I think that is extremely well put. ...

1:47:05:
Peterson: ... I can't help but admire him [Richard Dawkins]. And it's an interesting thing because I believe that his insistence that the religious enterprise is nothing but a superstitious impediment to the clear progress of science, I think that that's insufficiently differentiated because it doesn't differentiate spirit from totalitarianism. It conflates them. And the totalitarian spirit is subtle enough so that identifying it with a given domain of endeavour- let's say the religious- is a dangerous understatement of the true danger of that ethos because it can permeate everything, and is likely to, and so if we put the enemy in the wrong place- so if the scientific types, for example assume that it's manifestation of the religious spirit that's the primary impediment to the scientific endeavour- then we are going to be fighting the wrong war. And we are going to make enemies out of people we should be allies.

Ridley: I think that's a key point. I completely agree with you on that.
 

Bluegazer

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Not that I was expecting him to challenge Netanyahy in any meaningful way, it just shows the way popular figures can be vectored to serve nefarious agendas if they don't pay enough attention to their biases. It will be interesting to see if Peterson will ever tackle his blind spots regarding Israel and Palestine, as he has shown to learn and adjust his thinking in the past.

I can't help but notice, but I see that JP's bias seems to be growing by the day.



Then just read people's comments...
 
Top Bottom