Jehovah's Witness Dream

[Lucy]

First, for those who haven't seen my post over at
Channel Watch & New Age COINTELPRO

 

[Guest]

Seems to me it's connected to this post I also made today --
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/for ... 6648#p6648

I think it is. The Yah material has a strange energy around it that usues the same tactics as cults use to get under your skin. It's not just a "message", but in my view literally something that tries to bore into you and if you have experience with that sort of thing the energy can activate old program residues and scars.

Your dream is quite complex and seems to contain many personal elements, particular to you in that the vibration is more an undertone, as if all the pieces are meant to acquire meaning through the formation of a whole. However, there may be some observations that I can describe in terms of how they impact me. If they resonate with you it may help to form the bigger picture.

Two things make an immediate impression: Tokyo and a brightly lit building in the dark. The girl later on in the dream is also foreign, and the kilt also strikes me as exotic unless related to your heritage somehow. There seems to be an International flavor to the dream, or at least a "foreign" one, as in something other than strictly personal. Perhaps this resonates with the influence the Jah material had.

The kilt, ball cap and skateboard on your son are probably personal symbols having to do with his being you "child". Perhaps you view him differently than he views himself, but again only you can know this. It may just be that the first part with the building is a different theme continued by the JW theme.

The whole thing seems to tie together with the idea of getting up in the world, especially related to you mentorship and how your experience can contribute. The rain and being locked out of your car, on the other hand, might point to "theme change" in the dream (change in the weather and not being able to access your vehicle of moving through the dream realm). It seems you are "caught" in this vibration now becoming prominent in the dream that has ridden the previous one.

It seems you recognize that it is not your vibration, and not really your issue, although it seems to be part of your experience (tied to the mentorship theme) since you enter another vehicle, where those who are relatively inexperienced but well-meaning sit.

The theme of "generation gap" also seems to pop up, both with your son and the others entering the building, and also with the two people in the car regarding the KH dance. And at first it seems things have changed for the better, but the wine of their fruits (which appears normal at first, but then becomes unpalatable) reveals otherwise.

It reminds me of Jah quoting the bible saying something about the truth (or his truth) being sweet in the mouth but bitter in to stomach. So this may actually represent your own take that this wine only looks good at first glance and then becomes so "thick" it is impossible to swallow.

The episode with the girl, her exotic looks and foreign nature may reflect upon you as being the outsider here, interacting with the young men and probably just about to give your opinion regarding their "wine". It is probably this that she intervened to stop. The dream could have easily been your own simulation, but it could have been a kind of astral experience involving encoutering thoughtforms of groups of young people encountering such ideas. Each person in the dream (aside from your son) could have represented many people with the same "attitude".

I'll tell you, (my bias of course here) but when I read about the wine "plopping" it grossed me out because I thought of the "Blob" monster, and could easily imagine the concoction crawling away. You know, like it's a live parasite that you are swallowing or something.

In any case, your presence seems to threaten the status quo because of your perceptions regarding the wine. The girl can probably represent a group of people encouraging or even seducing the more innocent "boys" to swallow what their ideas, or even fanatics of the system given the charge of encouraging the rest.

The thing is cultish thoughtforms have a life of their own and tend to feed on groups that they may categorize according to palatability and taste (in their terms), and you may have picked up on that. And the girl does not want you to figure out WHAT is wrong with the wine (the distillation of the fruits of the cultish pattern, and what is "poured" down people's throats).

All in all I think your dream has personal and collective elements in it. Your role as experienced guide and possible advisor extended it seems in both directions. The rain may even indicated distress (either in you or in those others having deep misgivings of digesting thoughtforms such as what the Jah material was radiating).

It seems you felt something wrong, and encountered a theme of resistance in conveying your experience to others of lesser experience. Too bad you couldn't warn the two young men, because they may represent your perception of people about to swallow something best not swallowed.

Anyway, you asked for comments and that's what I have to offer.

 

[Lucy]

Seems to me it's connected to this post I also made today --
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/for6648#p6648

I think it is. The Yah material has a strange energy around it that usues the same tactics as cults use to get under your skin. It's not just a "message", but in my view literally something that tries to bore into you and if you have experience with that sort of thing the energy can activate old program residues and scars.

Your dream is quite complex and seems to contain many personal elements, particular to you in that the vibration is more an undertone, as if all the pieces are meant to acquire meaning through the formation of a whole.

"Activate old programs and scars," resonates with me in many ways, for instance: I went back and re-read my post and noticed what I'd wriitten as 'background' to explain why a Jehovah's Witness dream would be personal to me and realized I'd included my father being a congregational overseer, and a speaker very much in demand, which wasn't relevent background information for my purpose. Perhaps I did this to show that I admired him; that I had a good opinion of him; that, even though he was a Witness, he wasn't the idiot my mother worked so hard to label him...or a 'bad' person. I see him as sincere, but misguided.

I also got to thinking that it looked as though the greatest influence, or only influence, on me was from my father and the Witnesses...which isn't actually true. My mother(who wasn't a Witness) was a psychophage, which I have come to accept and see clearly. IMO- she birthed her own personal 'herd' of 'kid cattle' so she would have a constant supply of food, 'dominion' over her own small part of the earth, and attempted to literally consume our souls.

She constantly talked about her interests and beliefs in such things as ghosts, UFO's, reincarnation, past life memories, gnosticism, being psychic, and more...all of it twisted together into an undigestible mass...such as JAH has done...such as the nasty wine. I had long thought of her as positively countering the programming my father was exposing me to...although now I see it was part of her Machiavellian 'splitting' technique, and part of the 'queen bee' personna she used to make herself interesting, as well as simply placing her in powerful juxtaposition to my father...who's heavy handed Witness involvement we kids naturally resented.

Two things make an immediate impression: Tokyo and a brightly lit building in the dark.

Although I didn't include it in my analysis, when I read the JAH intro page I realized he was targeting an 'international audience' (victims on a world-wde scale), which, I think, also relates to the thought forms you mention later.

In telling some of this dream to my teenage daughter I suddenly realized Tokyo has significance to her and my grown son, who are fans of Japanese Anime and Mangas...as well as video games.

When I looked into the brightly lit lobby I knew I couldn't/shouldn't (it wouldn't be appropriate for me to) enter it. I don't know if I was 'locked out' because I didn't actually try to open the doors. I had evidently 'mentored' (coached/prepared) the young person I was observing through the window, but understood not to follow...that he was on his own...I'd done all I could to prepare him. It could simply represent my children going out into the world.

And it could have something to do with me coming to terms with not being able to 'save' my son from a psychopathic romantic relationship.

The girl later on in the dream is also foreign, and the kilt also strikes me as exotic unless related to your heritage somehow. There seems to be an International flavor to the dream, or at least a "foreign" one, as in something other than strictly personal. Perhaps this resonates with the influence the Jah material had.

Yes, the girl seemed foreign, 'with a dark visage', and also rather solid and stocky, large/heavy, with noticably large breasts...not in a sexy movie star way, but in a more matronly way...seemingly inappropriate to her being that young. Perhaps representing dark and powerful female energy. This could represent my son's girlfriend, as well as something 'other' to me.

I'm thinking her solidness/size meant she was more powerful than the young men in the car, who were slender, open faced...rather guileless and innocent looking. Her 'young-ness' seemed false because of her 'matronly-ness', and actually put her more at a level with me than with them...and perhaps I perceived her as only pretending to be in their peer group. She didn't look innocent at all...and she kept her 'dark visage' turned so that only I could see it, with her displeasure at me clearly showing on her face, but the boys in the front seat of the car couldn't see her face from their position. Much like the JAH material is apparent to those who can 'see'...yet the darkness of it isn't visible to those who aren't looking it 'in the face'. And much as my son is unable to see the true nature of the young woman he is involved with.

Oh dear, am I jealous of her influence over him? I don't 'think' so...but the wording of the above paragraph gives me pause. Actually, from things I went through a few weeks ago, I know she recognizes the 'danger' to her of any motherly influence I may have with him, and has gone to great lengths to destroy the bonds between us. She KNOWS I know what she is, no longer tries to hide it from me, so has taken, what to her would be, appropriate steps. She has enlisted the aid of her mother in doing this...and my son has now 'decided' (and loudly proclaims) that his girlfriend's mother loves him...but not me. I am a manipulative liar, it seems. In reality, that describes the other mother.

The kilt, ball cap and skateboard on your son are probably personal symbols having to do with his being you "child". Perhaps you view him differently than he views himself, but again only you can know this.

Perhaps I regret that he's an adult now, no longer a child I can protect? Do I view him differently than he views himself? Oh yes!
http://signs-of-thetimes.org/signs/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=3946#p3946
will explain this. (I also have had some dreams that appear to directly connect with that post...not sure where to post them. Perhaps I should copy and paste that post and relevent comments into this part of the forum along with the other dreams?)

The kilt doesn't hold any cultural significance. And it may have been a woman's plaid skirt...I only saw it from the back. It may have something to do with this: My son, although he's heterosexual, is somewhat effeminant looking...pale, willowy slender, long hair...and lives in a large city in the trendy 'gay' area of town. He's boasted of using his attractiveness to manipulate gay men...such as a gay supervisor at his job...I was appalled when he told me that. I would be just as appalled at one of my daughters using their sexual attractiveness to 'get something'. One of my daughters and two of my nieces are lesbians, which I am comfortable with. In other words, I don't have any bias where sexual orientation is concerned, so if my son were gay it wouldn't be an 'issue' for me. But the idea of him deliberately using his attractiveness to gay men for manipulative purposes is repugnant to me.

Hmmm...just remembered something. A few weeks ago my son, who is deeply involved with a young woman who is clearly a psychopath, told me, "she's the female me, and I'm the male her, and together we make one whole person." Perhaps the skirt on him represents their exchange of male/female energies? Or attachments he has gotten from her. I do remember the alarm I felt when he made the above statement. It was creepy to me. Of course, by this time I'd realized her true nature...and was finally seriously considering how his 'matched'. I still don't 'know' if he is a genetic psychopath, has attachments, or has simply chosen his current path. But, I do know that right now his 'behavior' is psychopathic in the extreme.

It's also possible the skirt/kilt, and my thoughts while in the dream about him wearing it, are about my idea he rebels against social norms for reasons that have nothing to do with personal principles...but merely to 'startle'.

It may just be that the first part with the building is a different theme continued by the JW theme.

Well, it was like a musical 'break'...transitional in nature...as I turned away from the building and went down the steps into the rainy parking lot.

I was still on the steps of the building when I became aware of the wet parking lot, noting that it contained only my car and the one with the boys (I 'wondered' at it's emptiness)...then I noticed my son walking towards me (and the building) and was suddenly 'impulsed' to leave the building, going down the steps into the rainy parking lot, rushing up to check on him, to see if he was 'ready' to go into the building. He avoided me...sort of brushing past me without breaking stride...I don't know that he even actually spoke to me, although I think I attempted to talk to him, but I think we briefly touched...either I touched his arm with one hand, or he brushed his arm against me. That's when I stopped, turned around, watched him walking away from me toward the building, noticed the skirt/kilt, decided that he was going to enter the building (I don't remember if I saw him actually do so)...and then I turned around to go further into the parking lot...realizing I was locked out of my car.

The whole thing seems to tie together with the idea of getting up in the world, especially related to you mentorship and how your experience can contribute. The rain and being locked out of your car, on the other hand, might point to "theme change" in the dream (change in the weather and not being able to access your vehicle of moving through the dream realm). It seems you are "caught" in this vibration now becoming prominent in the dream that has ridden the previous one.

Do you mean "getting up in the world" in a materialistic sense? My contribution as a mentor to my children's ability to do so?

BTW-- in thinking back over the dream, I realize it wasn't raining hard, just drizzling, and as I walked out into the parking lot I didn't even get wet...mostly just noticed how the rain made the asphalt look darker and 'assumed' I needed shelter so I wouldn't get wet. I could feel the drizzle coming down on me, but still didn't get wet... neither did my son. So, I didn't really need to get in the car...as I wasn't actually getting wet. I could also have hung out on the steps of the building, which were covered by an overhang.

So, perhaps I was making a decision to allow myself to step into that vibration for some reason...and was 'in it' but not 'of it'. Seems a little rash to do that. Perhaps I was I testing myself, simply being arrogant, tricked by the 'rain' set-up...or lured down the steps into the parking lot when I saw my son and went towards him...or all of the above. If that is so, then I suspect this was a psychic 'contact' between me and my son (I've cut off physical and phone contact). And, I suppose, could have been initiated by either of us, although I'm thinking it was him (I sense he's frustrated that he can no longer physically contact me or his younger sister). Maybe I fell into a trap...although perhaps 'coming to my senses' later...and removing myself from the situatiion. Perhaps the 'boys in the car' were a set up that he thought I would fall for, but my son (if he did set a trap) misjudged my ability to recognize it for what it was...and not to drink the wine.

It seems you recognize that it is not your vibration, and not really your issue, although it seems to be part of your experience (tied to the mentorship theme) since you enter another vehicle, where those who are relatively inexperienced but well-meaning sit.

Ah...the mentorship theme has been mentioned a lot lately in my astrology...that I have, and often effectively use, an inate ability to be an effective mentor. In real life I have done a lot of 'mentoring'...as in interacting with younger siblings, raising children, teaching both adults and children, tutoring remedial readers, Girl Scout leader, and homeschooling.

And those who "aren't as experienced as me" has a lot of connections...both spiritually/psychically and in 'waking life'. There are some people I am concerned for...whom I perceive to be in danger and not yet 'up to speed' enough to be Able to protect themselves from some dangers I 'see' lurking around them...and all I can do is advise if and when it is appropriate and they 'ask'....which takes discipline on my part as my 'inclination' (programmed from childhood) is to take over and 'fix' things...or at the very least to simply TELL them in no uncertain terms what 'I think' they need to do. I am fully aware, though, that 'what I think they should do' may not be 'correct'. That my reading instrument may not be as well tuned as 'I tend to think' it is. And, of course, I don't want to interfere with their 'lessons'.

The theme of "generation gap" also seems to pop up, both with your son and the others entering the building, and also with the two people in the car regarding the KH dance.

Perhaps that 'gap' isn't only generational (which I think it is) but also experiential, and also 'me' having an idea I'm a little further along on the 'staircase' than some of those around me that I am concerned about. It's true some of those people are of a younger generation...but not all of them.

I took on a lot of responsibility for my siblings at a very young age...part situational, part programming, and partly from truly caring about them enough to do so....and this has followed me throughout my life...this willingness, and sometimes compulsion, to accept responsibility for those I love and those who appear to 'need' me in this way...even when I shouldn't. Not always a healthy thing...after all, 'co-dependents' operate this way. As Ark says: "The devil's in the details." If one ignores, doesn't grasp, or doesn't respect, the concept of Free Will, then 'caring and responsibility' can easily become excuses for being controlling and manipulative. Been there...done that...don't want to do that anymore.

Also, I do agonize over trying to understand, come to terms with, accept, how much responsibility I may bear for 'who and what' my two oldest children are, or have become (my oldest daughter has been clinically described as a 'borderline personality'). This is gut-wrenching...to think I could/may be responsible in ways I'm not seeing. That perhaps I'm absolving myself of responsibility, de facto style, by simply not admitting my culpability. And then, there's still one child at home with me. I worry that, 'if I have' let her older siblings down...then perhaps I will do, or am now doing, the same with her...and not seeing or admitting it.

And at first it seems things have changed for the better, but the wine of their fruits (which appears normal at first, but then becomes unpalatable) reveals otherwise.

It reminds me of Jah quoting the bible saying something about the truth (or his truth) being sweet in the mouth but bitter in to stomach. So this may actually represent your own take that this wine only looks good at first glance and then becomes so "thick" it is impossible to swallow.

I agree. And that it was both a warning and a reminder that all is not as it may seem. At first glance the boys in the car, and the wine, all looked harmless. I 'recognized' that the boys were programmed...not essentially bad, evil, or out to intentionally hurt me or anyone else, but the wine was something else entirely, and indicative of the 'rotten fruts' produced by sincere but deluded people who have accepted and are helping to spread, lies. This would describe those who fall for JAH. And also, of course, my JW father, my son (his personal relationship with a psychopath), and my relationship with my mother, how I trusted, and even emulated her in some many ways, until I came to terms with her true nature. So the significance for me would be on several levels.

The episode with the girl, her exotic looks and foreign nature may reflect upon you as being the outsider here, interacting with the young men and probably just about to give your opinion regarding their "wine". It is probably this that she intervened to stop.

True. She certainly didn't seem to care that I knew about the wine...she could plainly see I knew...and as it 'plopped' out on the asphalt I think I uttered a "What the hell?" kind of comment, although softly, as if to myself. She was adamant about me getting out of the car and away from the boys. I didn't belong there...and it was her 'job' to remove me. As it is my son's girlfriend's 'job' to get me out of his life...she knows I know what she really is.

The dream could have easily been your own simulation, but it could have been a kind of astral experience involving encoutering thoughtforms of groups of young people encountering such ideas. Each person in the dream (aside from your son) could have represented many people with the same "attitude".

Why do you think my son would not also be representative? I'm not understanding that, although I'm not disputing it...I don't know enough to dipute it. :)

I am perceiving the encounter with my son as pivotal.

It's true everything that happened both before and after encountering my son was a little bit different in tone and 'feeling', although not dramatically. But I remember being somewhat surprised to see him there...and it was obvious he didn't want to personally interact with me...to actually stop to talk to me. And I never got a good look at his face...so there's a clear picture of him in my mind, yet a subtle murkiness attached to my perception of him as well. I'm wondering if I'd 'gone to a certain place' and then got caught up in something. Perhaps my son's 'job' was to 'lure' me from one place to another...making me think I was there for one reason, when it was actually something else entirely...or I 'was' there for another reason, and he 'found' me, in an opportunistic way. Which begs the question: What if I'd actually 'drunk the wine'?

Of course, it could be that my current (non)relationship with my son...my newfound realizations concerning him...are pivotal to my understanding/perception of many things that share a similar energy...or that I associate with that energy.

I'll tell you, (my bias of course here) but when I read about the wine "plopping" it grossed me out because I thought of the "Blob" monster, and could easily imagine the concoction crawling away. You know, like it's a live parasite that you are swallowing or something.

It grossed me out too, and I was gazing at it as if to see what it would 'do' next...but I didn't get the 'Blob' aliveness thing from it so much as I simply felt disgust at it's nastiness, and amazement at what the wine had become...and so quickly...and wondering if it would continue to 'change' if I watched it. I was momentarily caught up in trying to 'fathom' all of this. But, I was certainly careful not to step in or on the mess...I didn't want direct contact with it, or to have it on my shoes. Much as I chose not to fully step into the JAH material...willing to look on it from some distance, but didn't want to get it on me.

BTW-- just remembered that in the dream I was wondering/thinking about the wine being so thick because it was such a very sweet wine...wondering if it was a new kind of wine I had never before encountered. There's JAH again.

In any case, your presence seems to threaten the status quo because of your perceptions regarding the wine. The girl can probably represent a group of people encouraging or even seducing the more innocent "boys" to swallow what their ideas, or even fanatics of the system given the charge of encouraging the rest.

The thing is cultish thoughtforms have a life of their own and tend to feed on groups that they may categorize according to palatability and taste (in their terms), and you may have picked up on that. And the girl does not want you to figure out WHAT is wrong with the wine (the distillation of the fruits of the cultish pattern, and what is "poured" down people's throats).

Could the 'girl' also represent a real person who is aware I know what and who she is? She may even be worried that I will somehow manage to communicate this to one of her victims...my son...and as she very plainly told me: "He is MINE!" And the look on her face was 'creepy and scary' when she said it. Some hours before I had challenged her, looked into her empty eyes, and although I didn't implicitly say so, must have let her know I knew what she is...what I was recognizing. She calmly looked back at me, with her hand on my son's shoulder, and didn't say anything at all...just keeping eye contact with me until someone else in the room spoke to her, causing a distraction. In retrospect I realize she understood her 'game' better than I did. Although she does not physically look like the the girl in my dream, the darkness, foreign-ness (of her nature to mine), verbal forcefulness, and powerfulness (in a feminine/sexual way as well as 'otherwise') describes her very well. And in the dream I encountered 'the girl' while in a somewhat muddled state, being momentarily preoccupied/distracted with the wine, it was just enough to provide her with an opportunity to get me out of the car before I could warn the boys. This is similar to something that happened in real life. Am I processing 'the past', forseeing the 'future' or gaining an acceptance of the 'present'?

All in all I think your dream has personal and collective elements in it. Your role as experienced guide and possible advisor extended it seems in both directions. The rain may even indicated distress (either in you or in those others having deep misgivings of digesting thoughtforms such as what the Jah material was radiating).

In both directions? As in both personally as well as astrally and/or collectively? Would it be an application of my personal experiences/realizations to other elements that 'match'? I've been reading "Unholy Hungers" and thinking a lot about the interactive feeding process between vampires and victims, seeing that the victim opens the feeding tube (so to speak) be attempting to 'get something' from the vamp. Reminds me of the old "it takes two to tango" saying.

All I read of JAH was the intro page...and after that I made a choice NOT to actually read anymore, I knew would it 'taste' bad. That I had the dream early morning of the day I encounter JAH I found interesting...and beyond coincidence.

It seems you felt something wrong, and encountered a theme of resistance in conveying your experience to others of lesser experience. Too bad you couldn't warn the two young men, because they may represent your perception of people about to swallow something best not swallowed.

Yes, I have some feelings of regret in this area...that perhaps I could (but failed to) have 'done more' for some loved ones, especially my children, when I had the chance...that I may have let them down. This is a situation I am conflicted about. And I currently sometimes find it frustrating not to be able to warn people of some things they are apparently unaware of. But for the most part people don't want to hear...and so won't. Just as those boys in the car probably wouldn't have taken my warning seriously. They were so deep into the mind control programming that a simple warning wouldn't have gotten through it. And I'm thinking that any 'damage' I could have done to their programming would have been 'fixed' by the girl.

Thank you EsoQuest for discussing this with me...as always, your insight is helpful, and greatly appreciated. Deciphering dreams has never been my strong suit and discussing them with others helps a lot. Which is why......

Anyway, you asked for comments and that's what I have to offer.

......what I 'wanted' to end my dream post with was begging: "Please please comment on this dream...I think it's significant for me and I would like to discuss it!" But I chose the more open "Any comments?" so as not to 'demand'. But, perhaps I was still being demanding? This is something I find myself considering a lot lately...and wondering why it's so hard for me to come to clear conclusions about my true intentions.

 

[Guest]

Oh dear, am I jealous of her influence over him? I don't 'think' so...but the wording of the above paragraph gives me pause.

Mother/son relationships can be complicated. Personally, my mother disapproved of EVERY girl I liked, and any girl that met with her approval did not meet with mine. My mother is not the possessive type as far as her children are concerned, but she has particular ideas of what is and is not right for them especially regarding who their friends and intimates should be, and those ideas are not compatible with who her children are.

And I have to say, being nagged about my personal choices does not sit well with me, especially when I am not sure about them myself. I am sensitive to other's feelings, and although I am not easily manipulated, the pressure feels very uncomfortable to me. So I guess any child needs to find their space and learn how to move about it.

I also find that once you have your say as a parent, that input stays with the child regardless of the outcome. If the choices an offspring makes are wrong for them, parental influence is always in the background to be referenced. That makes a big difference from making mistakes and not knowing where to turn for understanding. Of course, each case is unique.

Hmmm...just remembered something. A few weeks ago my son, who is deeply involved with a young woman who is clearly a psychopath, told me, "she's the female me, and I'm the male her, and together we make one whole person." Perhaps the skirt on him represents their exchange of male/female energies? Or attachments he has gotten from her. I do remember the alarm I felt when he made the above statement. It was creepy to me. Of course, by this time I'd realized her true nature...and was finally seriously considering how his 'matched'. I still don't 'know' if he is a genetic psychopath, has attachments, or has simply chosen his current path. But, I do know that right now his 'behavior' is psychopathic in the extreme.

It appears to me that you view your son as being "seduced" in a manner by his girlfriend. There is something to consider here, however. If your son is a psychopath then it is not really seduction, but a matter of like attracting like. Instead of her feeding upon him, they may be feeding on each other (probably the closest thing to love for a psychopath).

In my view love is a fusion of sorts that is really a mutual circulation of each into the other that enhances the individuality of the people involved. So in real love there is not two parts becoming a whole but two wholes growing through their fusion circulation in ways they could never do alone. That is why I think if one feels to a large extent incomplete (and I mean a debilitating incompletness rather than the capacity to grow into more than one is at any given moment), the hunger to compensate for what is "missing" is often mistaken for love.

If your son is not a genetic/inherent psychopath, but is simply exhibiting symptoms, he probably feels something is missing in himself. And he probably feels this girl has the answer, an answer you cannot supply, and which he does not want you to supply. In this case, he probably wants to search for wholeness on his terms, and part of that journey is discovering what those terms are.

And any questioning of his relationship may be taken (provided psychopathy is only symptomatic and not inherent) as a threat to his search for wholeness on his terms. I believe the wisest parents recognize the best guidance they can provide, and provide it not to save their children from making often painful mistakes, but so that the guidance is available AFTER the mistake has been made and realized as such. Then the child can grow from it, again on their terms, because NOW the guidance can make practical sense to them.

In all of this I think it is important to come to understand if your son is an inherent psychopath or simply undergoing psychopathic symptoms for whatever reason. This will help you keep your integrity at all times when dealing with the situation whatever may come.

The thing to remember in a more esoteric sense, is that psychopaths (no matter what role they play in our lives) are driven to undermine people of integrity, and view their existence as dependent on that undermining. So what matters most is your integrity (maintaining wholeness and a healthy sense of self) here, as all else are learning their own lessons anyway. In other words, even if others do not respect you you must not fall away from respecting yourself. If your son has any growth potential, at SOME point he will sense that self-respect and it can be a source of strength (an example, if you will) for him even from afar.

Could the 'girl' also represent a real person who is aware I know what and who she is? She may even be worried that I will somehow manage to communicate this to one of her victims...my son...and as she very plainly told me: "He is MINE!" And the look on her face was 'creepy and scary' when she said it...In retrospect I realize she understood her 'game' better than I did. Although she does not physically look like the the girl in my dream, the darkness, foreign-ness (of her nature to mine), verbal forcefulness, and powerfulness (in a feminine/sexual way as well as 'otherwise') describes her very well. And in the dream I encountered 'the girl' while in a somewhat muddled state, being momentarily preoccupied/distracted with the wine, it was just enough to provide her with an opportunity to get me out of the car before I could warn the boys. This is similar to something that happened in real life. Am I processing 'the past', forseeing the 'future' or gaining an acceptance of the 'present'?

It's most likely the girl in the dream IS that person, while at the same time more than that person. Think about it...if the Jah material struck you personally through your JW experiences, then the personal experience with the girl could have triggered a more general perception of how the "game" is played at more than one level.

Your subconscious could have been making links back and forth between what goes on in cults and what goes on in your immediate family. Cults seduce and then feed. What you described regarding the girl in the dream seems like "cradle robbing" of sorts with an older woman seducing the more gullible males, and you could also see the experienced Jah as a psychic cradle robber.

So to me the personal/transpersonal elements blend in your dream (with your son symbolzing the personal and the two men the transpersonal version) for a kind of encompassing "bottom-line" assessment of the deeper pattern that goes beyond any one field of its manifestation.

And it can also be a past processing, combined with an assessment of the present and a prediction (as opposed to a forseeing) of the future. Forseeding, I take as an actual glimpse, while prediction is more of a projection based on the facts available, like predicting the weather. And you obviously have enough facts to come up with an archtype of your experiences with such seductions.

And perhaps to identify this archtype and share the experience with others prone to fall into it is that which draws you. At the same time, you may be learning this even more deeply by understanding when to mentor, and when to let the birds attempt to fly on their own.

This is what I meant when I said "both directions". That your role as guide extends through the full extent of the navigating the archtype of seductive manipulation, from immedate personal to the more generalized transpersonal applications of group dynamics and ideologies. It seems to be that you are karmically confronting the same "beast" in all its forms.

And it seems it is YOUR learning and very much in progress: To learn to deal with it, to help others in dealing with it, and to know when to release others to deal with it themselves, to test their own abilities, which depend on where they themselves are coming from.

The last part is probably where you are most concentrated now, and the conflict is the result of a learning in progress, somthing that is still "cooking" in you.

Maybe the girl "fixed" the "damage" you did, and maybe the boys absorbed more than you think they did. Maybe they saw you pour the wine or saw that your reaction to it. And even if they did not take pause then, their otherwise naive tasting of it would certainly thereafter have been "tainted" by your input. If they were COMPLETELY taken in, this other woman would not be going to such lengths to keep them under her control, nor would she feel vulnerable. Sometimes it is the little things we do that have the most impact.

The lesson seems to be that you need to trust in the impact of your experience even if you have no immediate feedback from it. For any seed to grow, it needs fertile ground, moisture, light etc. You may be throwing seeds on parched land, but at some point rains to come even in the desert. That is when those seeds sprout, and you simply may not be there to witness it.

Another thing is that we affect others by who we are, not by what we do. In other words, what we do as a consequence of who we are has the most profound results, not what we do in and of itself because some actions are natural and others artificial and forced even if well-meaning. So you can develop an inner sense of knowing when you have done the optimum you can do. And even if that does not SEEM to be enough, it may well just what is needed for that particular situation.

And I think your life is teaching you this understanding that can optimize the value of your contribution. When you know the seeds you planted have been given all the possible conditions to grow, even if they do not in some cases, you have made a profound contribution to the world and the lives of others around you. Most true heros are of the "unsung" variety.

One more thing:

The dream could have easily been your own simulation, but it could have been a kind of astral experience involving encoutering thoughtforms of groups of young people encountering such ideas. Each person in the dream (aside from your son) could have represented many people with the same "attitude".

Why do you think my son would not also be representative? I'm not understanding that, although I'm not disputing it...I don't know enough to dipute it.

I am perceiving the encounter with my son as pivotal.

I just mentioned this because I didn't want to jump into the personal factors here, as I had little information. Your son is pivotal, of course, because he is a prime and immediate example of your encounter with manipulative seduction at the personal level. His example may also apply to many other.

The other two boys, IMO, most likely represent the same issue at the group level of cults and ideologies. You can view everything in your dream as variations on the same theme from concrete to abstract and from personal to impersonal.

Anyway, the dreamer has the final say, and some people can easily get defensive when others are poking in their personal symbolism, especially when they don't connect with the comments. I myself posted a dream and one comment was quite insightful, while another seemed almost subversive because it presented that elements I clearly percieved as hostile were actually parts of my inner child that I should embrace and accept.

Dreams are powerful inroads into self, and responding to them in a manner contrary to their real message can lead to a lot of unwarranted turmoil. So, I'm always careful in replying to this section even though I may seem to ramble on at times. Be that as it may, when I woke from the dream something told me I should post it here (as opposed to other dreams) because input would be helpful. And since people do post certain dreams they feel moved to post, I think there is a synchronistic effect between posted dreams and replies that makes this part of forum one of the most beneficial.

 

[Lucy]

Mother/son relationships can be complicated. Personally, my mother disapproved of EVERY girl I liked, and any girl that met with her approval did not meet with mine. [...] And I have to say, being nagged about my personal choices does not sit well with me, especially when I am not sure about them myself. I am sensitive to other's feelings, and although I am not easily manipulated, the pressure feels very uncomfortable to me. So I guess any child needs to find their space and learn how to move about it..

My son met this girl after leaving home, and has been involved with her for more than two years now, and since they live a couple hundred miles away I've only seen them occasionally, and talked to them on the phone now and then. My sense was that my son was very much in love (in his first serious long term relationship) and was happy. And I was glad for him, and predisposed to 'like' the person who was a major party to his 'happiness'. As I had done with my older child's partner, I welcomed her into my family...if my son loved her, then that was what mattered to me...and although I sensed now and then that there were things about her that were puzzling, or maybe a little 'off', I set them aside. I haven't, even now, actually criticized her to him.

The last encounter was of a special nature (which is difficult to go into on a public forum), and it was the first time I saw her without her 'facade' in place. I don't know if she was arrogant, careless, or just didn't care that I saw her in this way. It was also the most prolonged physical contact I'd had with her. It didn't take long to put the pieces together although I didn't actually say anything to my son about this.. Frankly, I was at the same time seeing my son in a different way as well.

I also find that once you have your say as a parent, that input stays with the child regardless of the outcome. If the choices an offspring makes are wrong for them, parental influence is always in the background to be referenced.

Which is also the case with the child who is still at home with me. Thanks for the reminder. Of course, my son may truly be a genetic psychopath, and if so, then our parent/child relationship is of a different nature.

It appears to me that you view your son as being "seduced" in a manner by his girlfriend. There is something to consider here, however. If your son is a psychopath then it is not really seduction, but a matter of like attracting like. Instead of her feeding upon him, they may be feeding on each other (probably the closest thing to love for a psychopath).

Actually, my 'impression' at the time was the latter. It was very hard to watch them together once I 'saw' this. It was so creepy it literally raised the hair on the back of my neck. I do see the girlfriend as the stronger of the two, the one 'in charge'...but I don't necessarily see him as a victim. He is a willing participant, for whatever reason. What I'm not 'sure' about is if he's willing because he's a psychopath, has attachments, or is a soul in struggle.

When I think about him I quite naturally have a 'picture' of him that includes not only his current psychopathic behavior, but also of him as a small child...and a seemingly very loving one. I also admit there is a component to this that may be important: He was 'the child' who most seemed to be loving 'in a way' that was most like me. I'm now looking back and trying to 'see' if this was because he was 'reflecting me' back to myself in a psychopathic way. I have many small clues that, put together, tell me that is very possibly the case. Not a conclusion a mother 'wants' to come to, or that I have firmly come to. While I can accept that he is currently 'acting' as a psychopath, that he may have been born a psychopath is not so simple. And it's important that I get it right. It makes the difference between our parent/child relationship being real or an illusion. I have recently admitted that my child/parent relationship with my mother was an illusion. So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.

If your son is not a genetic/inherent psychopath, but is simply exhibiting symptoms, he probably feels something is missing in himself. And he probably feels this girl has the answer, an answer you cannot supply, and which he does not want you to supply. In this case, he probably wants to search for wholeness on his terms, and part of that journey is discovering what those terms are.

Yes, I'm also considering this...and if he is a 'soul in struggle' rather than a true psychopath, then a 'search for wholeness' would seem to fit.

In all of this I think it is important to come to understand if your son is an inherent psychopath or simply undergoing psychopathic symptoms for whatever reason. This will help you keep your integrity at all times when dealing with the situation whatever may come.

And that's the fence I'm stuck on and can't seem to get off of. And, if he is a 'soul in struggle' then making the wrong diagnosis will be harmful...which is agonizing to contemplate. At this point I've cut off contact because it's obvious I need to (even his father is so disgusted he's severely limited contact). I made this decision not only for myself, but because of his (and his girlfriend's) negative influence on my youngest child...much of which I only recently became fully aware of. I'm working with her to undo some of the damage, and to help her become strong enough, and knowledgeable enough, to protect herself. (There's that mentoring again.) I know I can only do so much, and will soon have to step back...but not just yet, thank goodness. I'm trying to make the most of this last opportunity with her...and to 'get it right'. To "keep my integrity" as you say.

It's most likely the girl in the dream IS that person, while at the same time more than that person. Think about it...if the Jah material struck you personally through your JW experiences, then the personal experience with the girl could have triggered a more general perception of how the "game" is played at more than one level.

Your subconscious could have been making links back and forth between what goes on in cults and what goes on in your immediate family. Cults seduce and then feed. What you described regarding the girl in the dream seems like "cradle robbing" of sorts with an older woman seducing the more gullible males, and you could also see the experienced Jah as a psychic cradle robber.

So to me the personal/transpersonal elements blend in your dream (with your son symbolzing the personal and the two men the transpersonal version) for a kind of encompassing "bottom-line" assessment of the deeper pattern that goes beyond any one field of its manifestation.

And it can also be a past processing, combined with an assessment of the present and a prediction (as opposed to a forseeing) of the future. Forseeding, I take as an actual glimpse, while prediction is more of a projection based on the facts available, like predicting the weather. And you obviously have enough facts to come up with an archtype of your experiences with such seductions.

Okay, you've managed to articulate into words what I'm now 'getting' on some level, but couldn't organize well enough to verbalize. Well done EQ! And, as Gurdjieff said. "Use the present to repair the past and prepare the future,"

And perhaps to identify this archtype and share the experience with others prone to fall into it is that which draws you. At the same time, you may be learning this even more deeply by understanding when to mentor, and when to let the birds attempt to fly on their own.

It certainly keeps coming up again and again! I'm being bombarded with it, aren't I? Ah...what the Universe will do to get one's attention!

This is what I meant when I said "both directions". That your role as guide extends through the full extent of the navigating the archtype of seductive manipulation, from immedate personal to the more generalized transpersonal applications of group dynamics and ideologies. It seems to be that you are karmically confronting the same "beast" in all its forms.

And why does this not surprise me?

The lesson seems to be that you need to trust in the impact of your experience even if you have no immediate feedback from it. For any seed to grow, it needs fertile ground, moisture, light etc. You may be throwing seeds on parched land, but at some point rains to come even in the desert. That is when those seeds sprout, and you simply may not be there to witness it.

Another thing is that we affect others by who we are, not by what we do. In other words, what we do as a consequence of who we are has the most profound results, not what we do in and of itself because some actions are natural and others artificial and forced even if well-meaning. So you can develop an inner sense of knowing when you have done the optimum you can do. And even if that does not SEEM to be enough, it may well just what is needed for that particular situation.

This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?

And I think your life is teaching you this understanding that can optimize the value of your contribution. When you know the seeds you planted have been given all the possible conditions to grow, even if they do not in some cases, you have made a profound contribution to the world and the lives of others around you..

As Laura recently posted: Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"

Yet, although I understand this, for me it seems I harbor a lot of doubt in those situations where I have some responsibility for those "conditions to grow." I agonize...wondering if I have actually done my best...and the doubtful thinking that 'maybe I haven't' actually causes me physical pain.

I think there is a synchronistic effect between posted dreams and replies that makes this part of forum one of the most beneficial.

In this case I have certainly found it to be very beneficial. Thanks for your help.

 

[Guest]

When I think about him I quite naturally have a 'picture' of him that includes not only his current psychopathic behavior, but also of him as a small child...and a seemingly very loving one.

In my case, I was unwanted by my mother at the time. My brother, on the other hand was wanted by here, but my father was unsure (although not against). So my mother has a tendency to view my brother as the son that she chose to have. I was a bit of a reminder of her anger at my father, an anger she did not want to express in his direction, and now that he died her behaviour changed radically toward me.

My brother, on the other hand, always showed her the face she wanted to see. And she attributed all these qualities to him that were at least exaggerations. My brother is not necessarily a bad person, but he is a survivor and saw how I was treated. So he acted as he thought he should act, and it had results. The myth of the innocent accepting child sometimes has reflections in reality, but often it does not. Cold calculation is a human trait, evident in children and adults, and can be independent of upbringing or family environment IMO.

In the same loving household an empathic child will relate to the environment differently and interpret it differently than a child who is more instinctual and survival oriented. And there are so many variables from conception to adulthood, that stimulate different infants and children in profoundly different ways that triggers resulting in ingrained attitudes can appear in the most seemingly innocent of circumstances. One child can be completely unaffected by a trigger that will profoundly influence another child.

So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.

I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you. Your dream also seems to have addressed this karmic issue as an issue where the personal aspects are only one part. It's almost as if the theme "Book-ended by Psychopaths" (starring Lucy), is one of the titles of the "movie" of your life, and the themes of mentorship and guidance, and all that involves form a complementary title.

This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?

Join the club! :)

"Challenge" IMO doesn't even begin to describe it. I find, however, that usually what comes easier to us holds a strength and insight for what does not come so easy. What comes easier can be mastered easier, and we can have a sense of being adept at least in some areas of our lives. Since the issue is accross the board, being adept in what comes easy is a step away from dealing with the more difficult areas. And they are difficult because they go deep and the full impact of the issue hits home, right at karmic wound central.

So what comes easier is usually a top layer of the same issue, and mastering that can help us go deeper. The problem is we sometimes get comfortable with our "talents" and become even more reluctant to move into uncharted territory because of that. So the blade cuts both was as is often the case...

Yet, although I understand this, for me it seems I harbor a lot of doubt in those situations where I have some responsibility for those "conditions to grow." I agonize...wondering if I have actually done my best...and the doubtful thinking that 'maybe I haven't' actually causes me physical pain.

I understand this. And that doubt can easily be used against a person by those prone to manipulation. That's why gaining a balanced perspective regarding what constitutes responsibility is a major lesson and key to going into even more challenging areas and lessons.

One step at a time, and part of the path is learning which step to take first, so what you gain from that can fortify you for the next stage. Knowing yourself also reveals the right progression of what needs to be confronted for a smoother growth dynamic. Sometimes the tougher walls we confront repell us because there are softer walls that we should confront first.

They are still walls, but transcending them also tends to soften the tougher barriers by a few grades, so relatively speaking, if we get our lesson priorities right what we confront at any given moment need never be so tough as to result in hurt. There is a wisdom particular to our development, and if we can grasp it, it makes things a whole lot easier.

If you can come to terms with your relationship with the concept of "responsibility", it will reveal new options and make many former obstacles reduntant, and lessen the impact of all others. One way I like to look at the word "resonsibility" is as "response-ability", the ability to respond in the right manner (with integrity, acceptance and insight) to every situation. The debilitating way one can approach this concept, on the other hand, is as "burden".

I think, from what you wrote, that you are well on your way as far as personal growth and resolving these lessons is concerned. :)

 

[Lucy]

When I think about him I quite naturally have a 'picture' of him that includes not only his current psychopathic behavior, but also of him as a small child...and a seemingly very loving one.

In my case, I was unwanted by my mother at the time. My brother, on the other hand was wanted by here, but my father was unsure (although not against). So my mother has a tendency to view my brother as the son that she chose to have. I was a bit of a reminder of her anger at my father, an anger she did not want to express in his direction, and now that he died her behaviour changed radically toward me.

My brother, on the other hand, always showed her the face she wanted to see. And she attributed all these qualities to him that were at least exaggerations. My brother is not necessarily a bad person, but he is a survivor and saw how I was treated. So he acted as he thought he should act, and it had results. The myth of the innocent accepting child sometimes has reflections in reality, but often it does not. Cold calculation is a human trait, evident in children and adults, and can be independent of upbringing or family environment IMO.

In the same loving household an empathic child will relate to the environment differently and interpret it differently than a child who is more instinctual and survival oriented. And there are so many variables from conception to adulthood, that stimulate different infants and children in profoundly different ways that triggers resulting in ingrained attitudes can appear in the most seemingly innocent of circumstances. One child can be completely unaffected by a trigger that will profoundly influence another child.

Interesting you should bring this up as it has reminded me of some other 'things' that I also 'carry' in that 'picture' of my son.

When I found I was pregnant with him I was upset, didn't want to be pregnant, because I was in the planning stages of separating from my husband. Already having one child, knew another one would complicate matters in many ways, make many things more difficult.

Then something happened: I found out my mother was suffering a terminal illness (this was long before I was fully Able to understand and accept her true nature), and I was devastated. I now 'saw' a certain positive symmetry in having another child, as in bringing a new life into the world as another was leaving...and both of them being 'primary' in the mother/child sense. Ironically, these two very people, my mother and my son, now appear to be 'psychopathic bookends' in my life.

Also, his birth experience was very difficult and complicated...the most difficult of the three, and I found myself thinking of him as special; he was the only boy, he was born shortly before my mother died, and I had to 'work' harder for him than my daughters. Also, his birth had a positive affect on my marriage for awhile, and I ended up waiting 12 more years before separating from my husband. That also lead to my husband and I being together for the birth of our second daughter, who has been integral to many of the choices I've made, or steps I've taken, towards The Work. There is a sense of karma to all of this. Or perhaps I should say a sense of 'karma within karma'.

Natually, all these things, and my feelings, were reflected in my relationship with my son as I was raising him...whether I was conscious of it or not. So it is not surprising that I thought of him as my 'golden child' in many ways. For him to reflect that back to me is also not surprising, whether it was a normal human reaction, or a psychopathic reflection.

So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.

I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you.

Yes. Their is a unique structure to my background and life experiences that seems to have lead me to the very place I am now that are a part of this. I've 'sensed' this for a few years, but now it is as though the mist is clearing and the "zoo" is becoming more visible. There is 'something' about the idea of all these "psychopathic dynamics" being "focused" on me that I've been aware of, but resisting.

Your dream also seems to have addressed this karmic issue as an issue where the personal aspects are only one part. It's almost as if the theme "Book-ended by Psychopaths" (starring Lucy), is one of the titles of the "movie" of your life, and the themes of mentorship and guidance, and all that involves form a complementary title.

Last night I had another of these mentorship dreams, this one 'guest starring' two close family members. This dream again reflected my desire to help a particular 'group' of humanity on a larger scale, and at the same time contained the playing out of a negative 'feeding' dynamic between all of us that I have allowed to continue...as in, "First one them feeds on me and then the next person feeds on 'that' person, the progression of which also hurts me."

I realized, in the dream, that if I don't allow the first person to feed off me, then the second person wouldn't be able to indirectly feed off me, and perhaps the next person also wouldn't be fed from as easily...and on and on. In this dream I didn't act upon, or resolve, the situation so much as 'recognize' it...feel it in a visceral way. And the 'taste and feel' of the nature of the 'beast' were so apparent...so in my face, that it was painful.

There was a huge sadness I felt in the dream as I stood and watched that 'first person', realizing, admitting to myself, accepting, that I have tried to help but must now stand back and let them 'do what they will do'...that the 'right' thing to do is to simply stop participating in the feeding dynamic...that they will continue to hurt me until I stop it...and it hurts them as well.

There was even the aspect that, yes, allowing these personal dynamics between us to continue 'appeared' to be helpful to me in my 'larger'aspiration of providing mentorship to a 'group' that I felt I could help, but that I couldn't use that as an excuse to continue the personal dynamic any longer. This is all so convoluted, and yet so simple, in the 'connectedness' of it all. Again, there is a sense of karmic situations applying to larger issues.

And I was again reminded of this:

As Laura recently posted: Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"

This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?

Join the club! :) "Challenge" IMO doesn't even begin to describe it. I find, however, that usually what comes easier to us holds a strength and insight for what does not come so easy. What comes easier can be mastered easier, and we can have a sense of being adept at least in some areas of our lives. Since the issue is accross the board, being adept in what comes easy is a step away from dealing with the more difficult areas. And they are difficult because they go deep and the full impact of the issue hits home, right at karmic wound central.

As was so vividly reflected in my latest dream.

Yet, although I understand this, for me it seems I harbor a lot of doubt in those situations where I have some responsibility for those "conditions to grow." I agonize...wondering if I have actually done my best...and the doubtful thinking that 'maybe I haven't' actually causes me physical pain.

I understand this. And that doubt can easily be used against a person by those prone to manipulation. That's why gaining a balanced perspective regarding what constitutes responsibility is a major lesson and key to going into even more challenging areas and lessons.

Synchronistically, this was also part of my latest dream. Played out in such a way that the 'hurt' of it was so strong that I couldn't ignore it. And I could suddenly see how I was negatively contributing to the "conditions to grow" for a feeding situation happening to someone I care about at the same time I was hurting myself.

One step at a time, and part of the path is learning which step to take first, so what you gain from that can fortify you for the next stage. Knowing yourself also reveals the right progression of what needs to be confronted for a smoother growth dynamic. Sometimes the tougher walls we confront repell us because there are softer walls that we should confront first.

For me the macro-scale is the softer wall, and the micro-scale is the tougher wall....but I seem to be getting closer to confronting them both together...or perhaps I'm in the active process of doing so...and this is being shown to me (I'm accessing my subconscious?) in my dreams.

If you can come to terms with your relationship with the concept of "responsibility", it will reveal new options and make many former obstacles reduntant, and lessen the impact of all others. One way I like to look at the word "resonsibility" is as "response-ability", the ability to respond in the right manner (with integrity, acceptance and insight) to every situation. The debilitating way one can approach this concept, on the other hand, is as "burden".

As I read this I 'flashed' on how my mother's emotional abuse and programming set me up for seeing responsibility as a burden, partially through 'using' my natural inclination is to be willing to accept responsibility and then 'showing' me that it was a burden to her, and if I was doing it right, then I would also find it a burden.

You're right, I need to 'see' it in a different way...not to feel I 'own' so many things...or to 'identify' with things that aren't truly mine. What I am actually responsible for my own response-Ability.

I think, from what you wrote, that you are well on your way. :)

By golly, I think you're right! :D

 

[Guest]

So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.

I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you.

Yes. Their is a unique structure to my background and life experiences that seems to have lead me to the very place I am now that are a part of this. I've 'sensed' this for a few years, but now it is as though the mist is clearing and the "zoo" is becoming more visible. There is 'something' about the idea of all these "psychopathic dynamics" being "focused" on me that I've been aware of, but resisting.

You know, I've been observing in myself and others a tendency to move to discover the primary theme of their lives. A sense of being able to compile all major life lessons together, and distill a common meaning from them. It is like an answer to the question of one's personal existence, and real destiny reflected off of the contradictions and difficulties one confronts in life.

And it is undeniable that for most of us there is a pattern to all that occurs in our lives, and a surprisingly consistent one at that that we are challenged to understand. I find this is similar to the way we try to understand the meanings of our dreams.

There is usually a theme of being literally surrounded by the same contradictions with different faces at all levels of life over and over. If and when we finally start putting the pieces together, we often find that our strengths and weaknesses are part of this same spectrum related to this slowly emerging destiny realization.

It has to do IMO with the quote you mentioned:

Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"

And I do not think that anyone has to go around touring the countryside "teaching" or "saving" or even inspiring people. What I believe is that as one changes one's energy from confusion to integrity, and begins affecting one's personal environment, a kind of domino effect follows where people with the similar contradictions but without the corresponding lessons to understand them, benefit from the example of those that do, in what you might call a non-local manner.

In other words, how we pull all the contradicting aspects of our lives together generates an archetype of integrity related to our specific lessons that alters the energetic structure of reality. In doing so, it opens doors and potentials where there were seemingly none before.

When a door opens in your life it creates the probability of opening for others as well because a solution grounded for one or some is grounded for many.

Considering all this, taking the final steps toward putting all the pieces together, and relating them to one's strengths and talents can easily meet resistance. If we are all one, and our progress becomes the progress of the many, then the resistance of the many can easily pose a challenge for any one of us.

That is why I believe that we can feel that our resistance is often disproportionately greater than the circumstances around us, and the lessons challenging us. When we consider the possibility that much of that resistance can come from those who do not even have the reference of stark lessons (perhaps because they have learned the art of compromise and denial very well), we can look at it like an impersonal pressure rather than a personal weakness, or even a fear of anything tangible, (and it can be confusing to try to come up with tangible explanations for this often disproportionately strong resistance), and that can help in dealing with it.

 

[Lucy]

You know, I've been observing in myself and others a tendency to move to discover the primary theme of their lives.

Yes, this is how I'm feeling right now.

And I'm getting the idea that the "primary theme" is actually the same for all of us, but with personal variations based on how each of us find ourselves confronting this theme through our life experiences...our lessons, karmic and otherwise. Seems the theme is OP's, psychopathy, ponerology...and we each must discover for ourselves and make all the connections that apply not only to our own lives, but to our collective experience as well.

~

By the way...
My dreams are still following themes that became evident in the JW dream...ongoing situations involving young people, cults,
'seduction', mentorship, etc. But now there is the additional element of 'protecting my house'.

In one dream a local cult leader wanted me to allow some cult members coming in from out of town to stay at my house but I refused. His female assistant wanted to enter my house to talk to me into this, but I turned the front door into a window...like a betting window at a race track...so she could talk to me through the window, but she couldn't get in. She was annoyed and tried to climb through the window, but it was too small an opening.

In another dream I went to see someone (who appeared as a person I trust in waking life) who happened to be visiting the town I live in...she was staying at a hotel with a group of her 'followers'. This person tried to set up a situation where I would be impulsed to offer the use of my house to her and the group. I was rushing around trying to get my house ready for them, but at the last minute I realized something wasn't right...she had a strange calculating look on her face which tipped me off...so I didn't invite them to my house after all.

It was as though 'feelers' were being put out to see what I would do, or could be tricked into doing. The dreams both seemed invasive...the vibration foreign in nature, and I noticed the 'lighting' was 'off'.

 

[Guest]

And I'm getting the idea that the "primary theme" is actually the same for all of us, but with personal variations based on how each of us find ourselves confronting this theme through our life experiences...our lessons, karmic and otherwise. Seems the theme is OP's, psychopathy, ponerology...and we each must discover for ourselves and make all the connections that apply not only to our own lives, but to our collective experience as well.

This is my take on the matter, which I think is very important. There are two fundamental parts to the "Work" for anyone. The second part is actually that which we attribute as the "work" proper. This is our positive evolution represented by a path particular to us where we fulfill our destiny. In the more organized presentations of tradition, this isrepresented by esoteric societies and individuals pursuing "what they need to do" in this life to fulfill their destiny.

The first part is represented by all that which blocks the progression of the second. They are actually both our path of development, but traditions have generally neglected this part, considering it a hindrance. That is why mystics would go into seclusion, and like-minded people would interact through "schools", ashrams, monestaries and what have you. It was all to avoid the interferring elements, that ended up coming into the picture within the organizational framework of the teaching anyway.

I noticed that after the first quarter of this century this trend changed, and teachers advocated being in the world to progress. They began realizing that the first part of the work (dealing with environmental barriers) is of primary importance, especially these days.

In truth, we cannot expect to really move into the second part of our destiny path, marked by actual changes in our lives reflecting what we must do, without at least attaining some effectiveness in confronting the first. Of course, for some the transition is abrupt, and for others gradual with varying degrees of overlap between the two stages.

The "primary theme" you described as being the same for all of us involves the first part of the work, i.e. learning to confront collective resistance. Such resistance is too strangely "organized", and too synchronous, with too many distinct patterns to be considered either coincidence or even because something is wrong with us.

The only thing "wrong" with us is that we have been in the position of being food for so long we have become numb to the fact that we are on a far more insidious "dining table" than any conventional explanations regarding this or that psychopath can do justice.

I do not think this feeding only involves a nourishing of entities, but also a feeding of the Matrix itself. It is our potential, strength, conviction and clarity that is being drained from our own aspirations to serve agents of the Matrix who do not have any real potential to create themselves.

When all the psychopaths of your life have their way with you, you feel drained of strength, conviction and motivation. This is real energy. Where does it go? It goes to feed the doings of psychopathic probabilities, in your case these probably involve cults and other manipulative pseudo-ideological groups.

Now that you have realized this at a deep level your awareness, your natural psychic immune system, is taking measures to correct the problem and pulling out the feeding tubes. As you do so the Emperor's clothes also disappear for others. What these vampiric elements (tied to 4D influences that support them) do, is take you true aspiration potential and reverse it into what you hate and what contradicts the creative direction of your being.

In your case, they can take your mentorship potential and use it to mask their own manipulative energy. This mentorship potential promotes trust, projects sincerity, wisdom and security to others. The damage then is double by the manipulators. Not only do they promote direct harm on their victims, but they traumatize people to be wary of any real elements that can be of help to them.

Trying to get into your "house" is obviously an attempt to plug in the feeding tubes. And the frustration exhibited by these constructs (who may represent real psychopaths or groups of psychopaths realizing their facade is cracking).

Since my "alchemical" dream I have been inundated by other dreams trying to block me in institutions of higher learning, trying to tell me to lay off the internet, to lay of "subversive ideas", to stop searching or else the law will get me etc. There have often been direct physical attacks in these dreams, which I counter. Then the resistence goes through a full spectrum of infiltration attempts starting from false friendship, moving to imposing guilt and then right along to intimidation, and another attempt at physical attack.

In my case, the attempt is to "pen me in", as it were psychically, and in real life.

And so your dreams, my dreams and the dreams of many others are of the invasive type. From my experiences discussing dreams with psychopaths I learned that many of these people actually believe they can get into other people's dreams and "feed". I was told so by several individuals in no uncertain terms. These are probably conscious feeders, but I suspect many are unconscious, and perhaps even many OP's have found such feeding to be a way to a life the way they want it.

I wondered how these people came by such abilities in common. All the ones I asked (psychopaths reveal a lot when you get them to boast), said it just came to them from their "higher self" at a very young age. The point is that energies are changing as some of us are becoming more aware, and breaking some feeding patterns in the Matrix can start of a domino effect of general liberation from this horrific state of affairs. We have already said as much in this thread as well.

So keep up the dream observations, the conviction and learning about these "blockers" because it is giving hope to many more than just those in a closed learning circle.