A fictional discussion
In previous posts I submitted two translations one was an interview with Danish Imam Hassan Salaa and the other was a short essay by the author Kaare Bluitgen. The articles were published in the same newspaper. However many questions remained unexplored, since the two people never met and the journalist from the newspaper did not include or ask for elaboration of some of the answers the Imam gave.
In this post I shall try to confront the two sides with each other and investigate what will happen. I am going to present a fictional discussion. It became quite long. However since people are suffering every day because of the differences of opinion, why spare efforts to try and understand them. As you read you may find the views of SS a bit repetitive. I wanted to portray a person who sticks to the fundamentals, while using the opportunity to see his view from many angles. For someone who is not or has never been together with people of whatever religion, that are concerned about the basic orthodox values it is difficult to understand them. The discussion does not really end. I insert my name somewhere down and terminate it. In reality I think this holds true. If the discussion had an easy solution it had ended years ago and I would never have had an inspiration to write.
The idea for the discussion I have from my own life. When I was fourteen we learned about other religions including Islam. I began to understand that the Lutheran Catholic/Protestant/Christian Evangelical way of looking at life was not the only one. I went to the library, I wondered why people fight over God or Gods when they hold so much in common. Anyway one day our teacher of religion and history asked if I would debate with my friend and conservative Christian school mate on the terms that he should defend Christianity and I Islam. We accepted and it turned out to be fun for everyone, and for me also enlightening to imagine myself in somebody else's shoes.
The materials for the discussion are many of the links and sources I dug up while going behind the story of the cartoons, but presented so that the reader can go on, doing his or her own research when time or interest allows. I have grouped the discussion in four topics, although they are interrelated and overlap to some extent.
Topic one: The life of Mohammed
Topic two: Islam and the Koran
Topic three: Converts
Topic four: Islamic Science and Western Science
One of the main points of the interview with Hassan Salaa was that: "No matter which rule we talk of in Islam, it is correct. No matter which. I want to follow the rules of the Creator. Not human's." .... "Islam is the truth. And this we can prove. Our Sharia, our Islam, is perfectly compassionate."
Kaare Bluitgen on his side asked if one should "rather forbid the origin of screwed emotions? No, the Koran should of course not be forbidden, ..." "On the contrary the knowledge of these thoughts should be spread, so we can insert them in a historical context and once again try ourselves in the difficult art to learn from history."
Between these two positions there is a gap. To generate a discussion between the viewpoints, we shall imagine two people one is a Salaa sympathizer (SS) and the other is a Bluitgen sympathizer (BS). Their imaginary background is that they have read the two articles, but are more attracted to one than the other.
Topic one: The life of Mohammed
BS begins with asking SS, what he thinks of the description of Mohammed as portrayed by Bluitgen.
SS: His description in the article is not to my liking. I suggest you read "Muhammad: His life based on the earliest sources "SKU: 03054-1020 (Books - 359 - Martin Lings - English, H32) "Lings provides a wealth of detail on the life of Muhammad, the time and place of many Koranic revelations, and the foundation of Islam, all based exclusively on 8th- and 9th-century Arabic biographical sources and collections of the sayings attributed to Muhammad. General readers will find a well-written, straightforward chronological narrative; Muslim readers will appreciate the favourable treatment of Muhammad; while specialists will find a faithful and convenient rendering of source material." - Joseph Gardner, California State Univ. Lib., Northridge Library Journal. Above book is advertised on http://www.Islamicity.com , they say themselves: "This is one of the best book on Prophet Muhammad's life in English."
Another good read is "What do they say about Prophet Muhammad?" 2/21/2006 - Religious Education - Article Ref: IC0602-2919 Number of comments: 1
By: Sadullah Khan IslamiCity* - http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0602-2919 The article has many quotes from scientists and authors, Muslim and Non-Muslim about Mohammed.
In addition I advice to read a rebuttal by Mike G Wotruba to the atheist Steven Carr at the end of Mr. Carr's page "A Short Biography of Muhammad" http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mhmd.htm . Mike G Wotruba has among his views a favourable opinion on the child marriage of Aisha to Muhammad. Another defence of this marriage one reads here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
BS: On my side not only do I agree with Steven Carr on the website you just mentioned. There are others who think the same way. One example is the review by Dr. Ali Sina of "Why I am not a Muslim" found on http://www.geocities.com/muslimfreethinkers/Content.htm under
http://www.geocities.com/muslimfreethinkers/why_i_am_not_a_muslim.htm . There you can read a detailed summary of the book including its description of Mohammed's life. One phrase by Dr. Ali Sina is: "I foresee that ere long, the same devout Muslims will turn their back, against their religion and will endeavor to liberate the rest of humanity from the claws of religion in general and Islam in particular."
In addition I find the following interesting to strengthen my case: "ADDITIONAL STUDIES OF CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM" http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/how_i_became_a_hindu/additional_studies_of_christianity_and_islam/page5.htm
David Frawley has this to say: "Other Sufis were simply the Islamic equivalent of the Jesuits and could be militant, if not fanatic. Such Sufis encouraged and guided Muslim attacks against Hindu India. This was particularly true of organized Sufi orders like the Naqshbandis, which have long aimed at the conversion of India to Islam. These Sufi orders are spiritual soldiers for Islam and, like Christian missionaries, have little respect for other traditions, particularly those of India, which they still denigrate as pagan, heathen and kafir. Most Sufi activity in the world today is under their control. The other question was whether Mohammed, the founder of Islam, who had many mystical experiences, was a tolerant figure whose teachings were distorted by militant Islam, or an intolerant figure that militant Islam followed faithfully. In the beginning assumed that Mohammed was probably a great yogi whose teaching was misinterpreted, following a common Hindu idea that all major religions must reflect the highest truth at their origin. However, over time after studying the Koran and the life of Mohammed, I was forced to conclude that Islamic intolerance began with Mohammed himself. I came to agree with Swami Vivekananda that Mohammed was an eccentric mystic who mixed various superstitions with an experience of super consciousness that was incomplete. The result was a dangerous combination of religious insight and religious fanaticism."
SS: BS, what you are recommending is not for a good Muslim to read. You mention Vivekananda but he is supposed to have been a Free Mason according to one Islamic site: http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/freemason.html
BS: Vivekananda was a highly gifted person and his membership of this or that does not detract from the quality of his evaluation. And by the way who has killed more people Freemasons or Muslims?
Topic two: Islam and the Koran
The second subject for discussion between BS and SS is, if it is true as Salaa insisted in the interview:
"A: No matter which rule we talk of in Islam, it is correct. No matter which. I want to follow the rules of the Creator. Not human's." .... "Islam is the truth. And this we can prove. Our Sharia, our Islam, is perfectly compassionate."
BS: The journalists did not ask any questions about this point. SS can you elaborate how you understand it?
SS: What Hassan Salaa said is most certainsly true. Below are some links for your enlightenment and understanding of the one true religion.
Muslim Answer http://www.muslim-answers.org/ begins: All praise be to Almighty God, Lord of the Universe, and may peace and blessings be upon His final messenger Muhammad, and upon his companions, his family and all those who follow Clear Guidance until the Last Day.
"THE SOLUTION TO ANY PROBLEM? THERE IS NO DEITY WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH, AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER" one reads on http://www.islamworld.net/ which has hundreds of articles on Islam.
HOW TO BECOME A MUSLIM http://www.islamworld.net/become.html
Islam City http://www.islamicity.com is dedicated to advancing information, fostering community, and educating people about Islam.
http://bismikaallahuma.cjb.net/ : "The purpose of this website is to facilitate Muslim responses to the various mendacious polemics and distortions of Islam by the Christian missionaries and their anti-Islamic allies that are being spread over the Internet."
"Introduction" is the title of: http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/index.htm and has: "This message is for every inquiring and broad-minded human being. It is for every seeker of truth who might have once wondered: What is Islam? Who is Allah?"
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/index.html has a good site-overview. On this page one finds presentation of manuscripts for both the Koran http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ and the Bible http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/ Also on this site is Modern Science the Quran http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/
SS: If one reads all the above links it provides ample proof that what Hassan Salaa said is indeed the truth. Islam is the one true religion.
BS: The above is all very good, but I have learned that the devil is in the details so forgive me for making a response a little longer than yours.
Koran-The Ultimate Truth http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/koran.html The purpose of this article is to show and logically analyse the various contradictions in the "Holy" Koran.
On http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html somebody has gone through the whole Quran and checked it for contradictions, injustice, intolerance, violence etc. Site also has list of what the analyser terms as Good Stuff: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/good/long.html The same for the Bible and the Bible of the Mormons, are on other pages.
On http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm there is a short summary of what the Quran including a link to http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm / "Quran Teaches" which references to subjects such as: apostasy, terror, unbelievers, afterlife, thief, freedom of religion, women, and adultury.
If a comic is more easy to read try http://www.faithfreedom.org/comics/introduction.htm and http://www.faithfreedom.org/comics/01.htm for starters.
Some contradictions in the Quran can be found on this page: http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm
The Qur'an and Science: Do They Agree? http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm discusses science in the Quran.
More links and articles critical of Islam as the last truth: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/islam/ and http://www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm
A series of articles on Islam and Quran is available on. http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandthekora/ A critical, scholarly examination of the Qur'anic text. One link is to http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fanswering-islam.org%2FBehindVeil%2Fbtv12.html
Which describes how the Quran was gathered and that some parts were lost.
There are still more articles on text criticism of the Quran. http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html begins "Textual Variants of the Qur'an. Most Muslims claim that the text of the Qur'an is identical to that received by Muhammad. This is a convenient thing to believe, but is it the truth? There is overwhelming evidence that it is not:"
SS: On the page you just mentioned there is also a link to a Muslim page that answers those false claims. The link is http://www.mostmerciful.com/reply-ans-islam.htm , where a Muslim; A. Meherally evaluates the arguments made on the answering-islam site from a Muslim view. His first words are: "It is no secret that www.answering-islam.org is a major Christian Website that questions Islam and anything connected with it.
There are several indepth extensive rebuttals from the Muslim side to their articles. For those who are interested in long-drawn-out, extended responses based upon the reported narrations and counter narrations, I would recommend the visit of website http://islamic-awareness.org/ "
BS: The claim that the Quran is of divine origin is hard to defend I think. Now in Bluitgen's article he warns against applying the Quran literally, and gives the example of attempting to cure spleen enlargement by ordinating Urine from one-humped riding camel mixed with milk to the patients, as did Mohammed in his time. No doubt Blutigen is correct in his view.
SS: Not so sure, there is much said and written about this medicine. From http://muhammadanism.org/Hadith/Topics/Medicine.htm "Urine as Medicine; Sahih Bukhari;
"Narrated Anas:The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 71, No. 590. (Also, see No. 589.)"
Another source is an article in National Geographic where one gets the impression that the old science still works http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0402/q_n_a.html
"What's a good example? (In red bold)
The thing that hit me the hardest was when I was riding with a guide in a Land Rover and I noticed that he had a long thin scar on his neck. I remembered reading in Riley that the nomads treated illnesses by heating up a long blade, the size of a Bowie knife, and using the back end to brand different parts of the body - typically, the ankles, wrist, shoulders, neck. One of the sailors was treated that way for dysentery in Riley's narrative. I found it horrific and unbelievable. Riley's critics didn't believe it either. I asked the driver how he got the scar and he told me that he had been very sick several years ago and had been treated in the exact way Riley described. My jaw dropped. I was shocked that that kind of medical treatment is still being used today. He told me that the treatment saved his life and that he also treats his children with it.
In the book, Riley describes being so thirsty that he is driven to drink camel urine. Did you get a chance to try camel urine yourself? (In red bold)
I did not taste camel urine, but I did inquire about it. One of my guides was quite loquacious on the topic and said that yes, indeed, they do drink camel urine on occasion, particularly the urine of a pregnant camel because it has certain nutrients and is believed to help cure stomach ailments and mouth sores. And, of course, if you're dying of thirst you will drink any kind of camel urine. The fact that Riley reported that the nomads preferred camel urine to their own was somewhat shocking, but once you get over there, you find out that it's not that uncommon."
Here are more defences and links: Camel urine http://www.answering-christianity.com/urine.htm
Science in the Quran http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html
Effect of camel urine on the cytological and biochemical changes induced by cyclophosphamide in mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8771453&dopt=AbstractConclusion
SS: When one ridicules the Quran over the issue of Camel Urine, maybe one should think again.
BS: And the thinking should include obviously, that although milk is enough, the only camel urine available in Denmark is from the zoo.
SS: Why do you not import from Arabia?
BS: SS, your idea that it is easy to prove the position of Hassan Salaa with regard to the Quran is mistaken. The claims of adherents of the Quran, that it is The Truth is hotly debated as found in many places on the internet: http://rationalreality.forumsplace.com/message39.html on this page owner of rational reality Muhammed Asadi, argue with faithfreedom group including its owner Dr. Ali Sina. If you wisgh to read about Dr. Ali Sina click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Sina
Here is another debate on Science and the Quran: http://www.examinethetruth.com/Richard_Carrier_challenge.htm Also one finds a debate on the debate. The owner of Examine the Truth is Nadir Ahmed. When I read his site, I was surprised at his style found in links above and also on http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm and http://www.examinethetruth.com/page_against_01.htm
I looked for more understanding and found: http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/ which links to http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/nadir.html some excerpts from Denis Giron essay:
"Nadir Ahmed, webmaster of the Examine the Truth website, has begun to make a name for himself amongst Muslims. He has done so primarily through audio debates with non-Muslims who dare to question the veracity of the true deen. However, while his popularlity continues to grow, many question his ability to construct a cogent argument. This article will take a general look at Nadir's debating methodology. Over the course of this article, readers should ask themselves what, if anything, this tells us about the intellectual calibre of those Muslims who are part of Nadir's fan base.
The Challenge of Dr. Ali Sina
The motivation to write this article was first sparked while visiting the faithfreedom.COM website, which has been set up for the precise mission of rebutting the claims leveled against Islam by Dr. Ali Sina's site of a similar domain name: faithfreedom.ORG.[1] While visiting the site's section devoted specifically to Dr. Sina, I noticed that the first link is to Nadir's article Ali Sina of faithfreedom.org on the run!!, with follow-up comments reading simply "Well done Brother Nadir!" The web master of this site, like many Muslims on the net, apparently believes that Nadir has met Sina's challenge to disprove the litany of accusations he has raised against Muhammad.
It should be noted that the goal of this article is not to deride or degrade Nadir. I myself have debated Nadir in the past, have had many phone conversations with him over the last year, and have great respect for him. Nonetheless, because I (along with many others) have serious misgivings about the validity (much less the soundness!) of Nadir's arguments, I am perplexed by the growing number of Muslims who believe his efforts to demonstrate the veracity of Islam have been successful.
So this article will, with all due respect to Nadir, take a look at various instances of what has become a common occurrence: Nadir putting forth a bad argument and then proclaiming it a victory." ...
"It should be noted that the debate challenge that Nadir has extended to the Answering Islam team (or other willing Christians) offers to discuss seven different topics. The sixth topic is titled "Is there really any evidence for Christianity?" while the seventh topic is titled "Scientific and Archaeological evidences for Islam". The irony here is thick in light of the fact that Nadir believes that if a text has seven statements that can be correlated with science and one statement that mentions a place noted in the Ebla tablets, then that is evidence in favor of the text being from a divine origin. We could easily correlate seven statements from the Bible with science and note that a two cities mentioned in Genesis (Sodom & Gomorrah) are mentioned in the Ebla tablets. The same can be done with the Babylonian Talmud. In other words, the game that Nadir played with the Qur'an can be played with a myriad of other works. I have noted to Nadir how one individual, as a way of mocking the scientific-hermeneutic approach to the Qur'an he employed, jokingly found a bunch of scientific miracles in the first few lines of Virgil's Georgicon. I have also informed Nadir that a somewhat more serious attempt at critiquing the scientific-hermeneutic approach to the Qur'an by finding numerous "coincidences" in the writings of Epicurus can be found in Richard Carrier's article, Predicting Modern Science: Epicurus vs. Mohammed (where 22 statements are correlated with modern science). Nadir has continually ignored these points, and continues to claim that his ability to correlate eight statements from the Qur'an with science or archeology "proves" that it is of a divine origin.
When it was explained (by numerous individuals) that the figures he furnished were unfounded, Nadir claimed that he was merely employing "the subjective theory of probability" (i.e. he was making an appeal to the subjectivist approach to probability theory). So I put forth a long article[5] explaining why the subjectivist approach does not support his conclusion. Nadir has ignored the article and simply repeats his claim, that the Qur'an being written by a human author is statistically impossible, over and over again. He has even written, in response to those who dispute his claims, statements like: "you can't escape the Math, if you havent figured it out yet, it is the Math, not the Muslims, which is your biggest enemy."[6] The glaring irony here is that Nadir himself has offered no mathematical justification, while he has been presented with an argument (which he has yet to respond to) showing that a purely mathematic approach disproves his conclusion."
Topic three: Converts
SS: Mr. BS, you are not very friendly disposed towards my line of reasoning. However you must admit that Islam is the fastest growing religion. Many people join Islam also in Europe. That should certainly prove it is the best and most compasionate faith, just like Hassan Salaa says: "Our Sharia, our Islam, is perfectly compassionate."
To convince you further here are a few links on this issue: http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/ has "Islam is the world's fastest growing, yet most misunderstood religion. Why ? Islam is professed by about one-fifth of humanity. People from all walks of life, seeking truth and wholeness, are converting to Islam in significant numbers. In a few years, Islam will be the religion with the largest number of followers on Earth, superseding Christianity. Despite these facts, there exist a number of false yet widespread ideas about Islam. Often, these ideas are the result of ignorance, prejudice, orientalist bias, missionary polemics or just plain, good old-fashioned propaganda."
THE SPREAD OF A WORLD CREED http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/wm6.html "Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers despite hostile media coverage. The Times (London) - Tuesday, 9th November 1993"
Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1 More links to articles about converts http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/
BS: Listen, not only do people join, many people also leave Islam. Some of those who leave are among the most educated people, this you may understand from: http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm which begins: "Testimonies of Those Who Left Islam� I have dedicated this section to stories of people who have become disillusioned with Islam and have left it. Naturally their ID has been kept in secret and in some cases I have changed the names. This is necessary to protect them from becoming the target of Islamic persecution. The penalty of apostasy in Islam is death. Here is my own testimony. " One person writes in "I Used to Hate faithfreedom.org " : http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/AfricanDan.htm "My greatest blindness was to convince myself that the Quran is scientific. I said if I find one scientific error in the Quran, then that's it for me. I will know this book is not from God."
Another person writes from Saudi Arabia http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Khaled.htm : "Our teacher and other Islamic scholars told us that as Muslims, we are the best people in the world. We were also told that Saudi Arabian Muslims are the only true Muslims in the world, and as such, the world must follow us (the Saudi Muslims). " .... "My story of leaving Islam started when I was in grad five, I read in sura al-kahf, ayat 86 (18:86), that when Zu-Alqarnain had reached the point of setting of the sun, he found many people there suffering from the intense heat This was because they were so close to the sun. Same thing happened to him during the rising of the sun. I started thinking: the earth is not flat; it is almost like a ball, so how could he reach the edge of the earth? I asked my teacher this question. He was confused with my question. He didn't give any answer. He told me just to believe what the Qur'an says. This was the beginning of my suspicion about the truth in the Qur'an."
In Khaled's other post "A True Story on the Lives of Saudi Women" http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Khaled60130.htm he describes the lives of his sisters!
The last example: Anwar Shaikh: The Autobiography of an Apostate on http://www.secularislam.org/skeptics/anwar.htm It begins: "On Saturday 21st October, 1995, there appeared the following headlines in a daily newspaper, the Daily Sadaqat, in Lahore, Pakistan: "All Pakistani clergy demand extradition of the accursed renegade Anwar Shaikh from Britain to hang him publicly."
BS: The amazing statement explains itself in the section on "Doubt and Scepticism": "The moment I started reading the Koran critically, it looked entirely another book to me. Now in the Koran there is a sura called "Women" (sura 4), verse 82 says that if the Koran was not a book from God, it would contain many contradictions or inconsistencies. So I subjected the Koran to its own definition. And I found that all the important points had been contradicted by the Koran itself. I have written a book called "Faith & Deception" which demonstrates all these contradictions of the Koran. So you see when you read something rationally instead of blindly as most of the faithful do, then the same verses, the same words, will have different meanings. That is how I went away from Islam gradually, simply by reading the Koran itself."
SS: What you are talking is just propaganda. Did not one of your so-called converts say that he had to hide the names of those people who had left Islam. Now all these "true stories" could be created just to create an effect as the Anna Frank diary, http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2153.htm#002 where we but for one difference at least know she existed, that she suffered something and died. In your reference there is no other word than that of Dr. Ali Sina.
BS: Read the stories, think for yourself, ask are these people real, are their hearts beating somewhere on this planet, are their destinies being played out in the drama we call human life?
Topic four: Islamic Science and Western Science
SS: Mr Blutigen wrote in his article "No, the Koran should of course not be forbidden, and the Old Testament should also not. Neither should the books and speeches of Hitler and Stalin. On the contrary the knowledge of these thoughts should be spread, so we can insert them in a historical context and once again try ourselves in the difficult art to learn from history." I think this formulation is completely unacceptable. However he has a good point in advocating that "the knowledge of these thoughts should be spread" but not the way he suggests. Everything that one has to learn from history is in the Koran, all it takes is that everyone chooses to embrace Islam and all problems will go away.
BS: How is that possible, we have discussed it above or at least I have indicated to you that the Quran is not a divine work. Even some muslims will agree as you will see on a site which has much information on the Islamic world: http://lexicorient.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?index.htm where it on http://lexicorient.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?koran.htm reads: "WORD OF GOD OR MAN? There is a common idea today that all of the content of the Koran is eternal and there is a theological idea that the original of the Koran is written on golden tablets in heaven, as said in sura 85:22. The "Koran" referred to here cannot be the entire volume of today's Koran, but the core content. Virtually all Muslims believe it to refer to the entire existing Koran, but this notion must be deemed a misunderstanding.
The Egyptian Mufti from 1899 to 1905, Muhammad Abduh, ascribed many parts of it to the personal thinking of Muhammad himself, hence not being the word of God. Therefore, the Koran must be understood as an amalgamation of 2 forms of content: The actual message from God that Muhammad wanted to pass on. The other element are stories or passages relating to Muhammad's prophetic activity, as well as God's advice directly on Muhammad's prophetic activity. Below follows examples of ayas relating directly to incidents from Muhammad's own life:
Sura 33: Confederates
37 And when thou didst say to him [Muhammad's adopted son] God had shown favour to and thou hadst shown favour to, 'Keep thy wife to thyself and fear God;' and thou didst conceal in thy soul what God was about to display; and didst fear men, though God is more deserving that thou shouldst fear Him; and when Zaid had fulfilled his desire of her we did wed thee to her that there should be no hindrance to the believers in the matter of the wives of their adopted sons when they have fulfilled their desire of them: and so God's bidding to be done.
Sura 16: The Bee
103 And whenever we change one verse for another,- God knows best what He sends down. They say, 'Thou art but a forger!'- Nay, most of them do not know. There are no traces of any ideas in early Islam that the second of these elements had existed prior to Muhammad. But as soon as the Koran was compiled into a book, its importance grew and its force as the foundation of the Islamic faith became something a Muslim couldn't question. After time the misunderstanding of the Koran as a perfect creation of God had established itself, and any Muslim claiming that not every single word of the Koran was sacred risked his position in society, health or even life."
SS: That Muslim Muhammad Abduh you mention most be the same as Mohmmed Abduh who is described in a lecture by Seyyid Hossein Nasr http://web.mit.edu/mitmsa/www/NewSite/libstuff/nasr/nasrspeech1.html titled Islam and Modern Science. If you read that article you will convince yourself of how controversial Mohmmed Abduh and his teacher Jamaluddin Al-Afghani were and still are. Far from all Muslim agree with Mohammed Abduh. In the opinion of many the Quran is indeed divine revelation.
BS: The other day I found something that fits quite well for your position, if your exchange "People" for "Religion" in "A People Who Are Not Convinced Of Their Uniqueness And Value Will Perish" (David Lane) - http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/ Your view of holding on to dogma reflects the fear of disappearance if concessions are made. And here is another idea for contemplation: "The wrong view of science betrays itself in the craving to be right" The Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl Popper page 281, quoted in 'Popper' by Brian Magee, Fontana/Collins 1981, page 38.
Anyway if you want to continue on the issue of the divine origin of the Quran then consider: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/satanicverses.html "The Satanic Verses and their implications for the Miracle of the Qur'an"
SS: One of the miracles of the Quran is that it can be read in many ways. "There are today 7 ways of reading the Koran, each of these have two variances, leaving the Muslims with 14 ways of reading the Koran. But in modern Koranic science this applies only to Muslim scholars, the ordinary Muslim reads the Koran without entering this level of complexity." - http://lexicorient.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?koran.htm
The miracle of the Quran is not just the text it is also the sound as one may learn further down on the same webpage as above where it explains the "USE OF THE KORAN". "The two main importances of the Koran for the believer are:
1. Being the focal point of all Muslims. The Koran is regarded by most as the uncreated word of God, written on golden tablets in Paradise. This view, strongly contended inside the Muslim world in the first centuries, became orthodox towards the end of the most fruitful period of Muslim science (it is however clear that this is misunderstanding, see below). Until the middle of the 9th century (2nd hijra century) the dominating view among theologians was that the Koran was created by God, hence it is his spoken words. For the Muslims today, the Koran is a physical proof of Islam.
2. Being the sound of Islam. When recited, a holy atmosphere is created, an atmosphere involving God, the world, the truth and peace. During the moment of reciting, the compound becomes sacred, and the moment powerful. The reciting of the Koran is an art known by most Muslims. The most frequently used technique normally involves sitting on the ground with the book in the lap or placed on a specially made low table. This sitting position is resembling the lotus position used in eastern religions, but is not at all strict on the upright position of the spine - most Muslims bend over the Koran they read. The reading technique uses a rhythm with around 60 beats a second. The performance of this rhythm, is done with both torso, swaying a little in a oval shape, and voice and reading speed. Surprisingly overlooked by most Western scholars, the reading of the Koran is a meditative moment for all Muslims, and a ritual that can be performed anywhere anytime."
SS: BS, may I ask if you can say something uplifting about Islam.
BS: I am in favour of proper information. One should not only tell about all the deeds of Muhammed and his holy book, but also about Islamic science and its impact on other civilizations. Their relationship is described in the science column of Post-Gazette:
"Islam, once at forefront of science, fell by wayside. For centuries, Arabic was the language of science and medicine, as English is today. Sunday, April 11, 2004
By Michael Woods, Post-Gazette National Bureau http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04102/299292.stm
"TOLEDO, Spain -- Islamic medicine and science led the world for centuries while Europe stagnated in the Dark Ages."
""Much of our modern science and philosophy owes a large debt to Islamic civilization during the Middle Ages for preserving the classical heritage in all intellectual fields, and for improving upon it in many of these fields."
The above article has a reference to an article in Nature which is found here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/nature_fs.pdf"
SS: I am pleased at your contribution. We shouild add a Muslim site which has articles on the history and contributions of Islamic Science to very many disciplines: http://www.muslimheritage.com/
However the subject of Modern Science and Islam is more complicated than the one presented in the article in Post-Gazette. Below are a number of quotes from the lecture quoted above by Seyyid Hossein Nasr, who received a PhD in the philosophy of science, with emphasis on Islamic science, from Harvard University. Lecture took place in 1992 or 1993 but there are many points still relevant.
First Professor Nasr says about his lecture that it is "tailored to the internal problems of the Islamic world, as far as science is concerned."
"Many people feel that that in fact there is no such thing as the Islamic problem of science. They say science is science, whatever it happens to be, and Islam has always encouraged knowledge, al-ilm in Arabic, and therefore we should encourage science and what's the problem? - there's no problem. But the problem is there because ever since children began to learn Lavoiser's Law that water is composed of oxygen and hydrogen, in many Islamic countries they came home that evening and stopped saying their prayers." ...
"This is the gist of a rather extensive argument given by Jamaluddin Afghani which equates, in fact, Islamic science with Western science. Secondly, it equates the power of the West with the power of science. To some extent this is true, but not completely so. And thirdly, it believes that acquisition of this science of the West [by the muslims] is, no more no less, than the muslims claiming their own property which has somehow been taken over by another continent and [the muslims] just want back what is really their own. Now this point of view had a great deal of impact upon the Islamic world, upon the modernist circles, and in order to understand what is going on in the Islamic world today it is important to see what consequences flow from this."
"The modernists took on this thesis of Jamaluddin, and during the last century and a half, they have carried the banner of a kind of rationalism within the Islamic world which will accord well with the simple equation of science with Islamic science and with the Islamic idea of knowledge, al-ilm."
"Today, every Thursday evening when you turn on Cairo radio there are one or two very famous lecturers who are, in fact, very devout muslims, loved by the people of Eygpt, [and] the heart of their message is every single verse of the Quran which deals with either Ta'akul or Taffakur, that is intellection or knowledge or observation or mushahida. These [verses] are interpreted "scientifically'', that is, as an attempt to preserve Islam through scientific support for the Islamic revelation, for the Quran itself. And this is a very strong position in the Islamic world today. Therefore [the muslim] thinks in fact there is no problem as far as Islam and modern science are concerned."
"The ulema, religious scholars of the Islamic world opposed the modernist thesis, [which] was also based on the dilution of the Sharia, as you have seen in Turkey, the gradual introduction of Western political and economic institutions in the Islamic world, the rise of modern nationalism, all of these things which I will no go into right now. The religious scholars of Islam whose names paradoxically enough, meant scientists, in fact, disdained science completely."
"The second position which is held within the Islamic world today, which is now held by a number of very interesting and eminent thinkers, is that, in fact, the problem of the confrontation of modern science with Islam is not at all an intellectual problem but rather an ethical problem."
"Now we come to the third point of view." ... "And that point of view is that science has its own world-view. No science is created in a vacuum. Science arose under particular circumstances in the West with certain philosophical presumptions about the nature of reality. As soon as you say, m, f, v, and a, that is, the simple parameters of classical physics, you have chosen to look at reality from a certain point of view. There is no mass, there is no force out there like that chair or table. These are particularly abstract concepts which grew in the seventeenth century on the basis of a particular concept of space, matter and motion which Newton developed. The historians and philosophers of science in the last twenty [or] thirty years have shown beyond the scepter of doubt that modern science has its own world view. It is not at all value free; nor is it a purely objective science of reality irrespective of the subject you study. It is based upon the imposition of certain categories upon the study of nature, with a remarkable success in the study of certain things, and also a remarkable lack of success [in others], depending on what you are looking at."
"This third point of view, with its humble beginning in books which I wrote in my twenties, has won a lot of support in the Islamic World. And this perspective is based on the idea that Western science is as much related to Western civilization as any Islamic science is related to Islamic civilization. And as science is not a value free activity, it is fruitful and possible for one civilization to learn the science of another civilisation but to do that it must be able to abstract and make its own.
And the best example of that is exactly what Islam did with Greek science and what Europe did with Islamic science, which is usually called Arabic science but is really Islamic science, done by both Arabs and Persians, and also to some extent by Turks and Indians. In both of these cases what did the muslims do? The muslims did not just take over Greek science and translate it into Arabic and preserve its Greek character. It was totally transformed into the part and parcel of the Islamic intellectual citadel. Any of you who have actually ever studied in depth the text of the great muslim scientists like Alberuni or Ibn Sina or any Andulusian scientists know that you are living within the Islamic Universe. You're not living within the Greek Universe. It is true that the particular descriptions might have been taken from the [works] of Aristotle or a particular formula from Euclid's Elements, but the whole science is totally integrated into the Islamic point of view. The greatest work of Algebra in the pre-modern period is by the Persian poet Omar Khayyam. When we read his book, of course, if when you get [to a] particular formula or equation you could be writing in Chinese or English and could be in any civilisation, but the impact that the whole work makes upon you makes you feel that you belong to a total intellectual universe- the Islamic Universe. And this is precisely what the West did to Islamic science."
"Arab Nationalism began with a thesis, propagated by small non-muslim minorities within the Arab world, that the Islamic civilization began to go down when the Arab hegemony over Islamic civilization came to an end." ... "but what were the arabs doing for 700 years in between? That is totally overlooked." ... "So Arab nationalism had a lot to do with this of trying to diminish the contribution that Islamic civilization. after the Mongol invasion and the destruction of Baghdad in 1258, which coincided with the downfall of the political hegemony of the Arabs who did not regain the political hegemony, even over themselves, until the 20th century."
"There are over three thousand manuscripts of medicine in India which have never been studied by anybody. This is [only] the tip of the iceberg. There are thousands of manuscripts in Yemen which we don't even know about."
"I remember in 1983 when the Saudi government decided to found a science museum center in Riyadh, they contacted me and I went several times to Saudi Arabia and spoke to all of the leading people involved. I told them at that time, that a science museum could be a time bomb. Do not think that a science museum is simply neutral in its cultural impact. It has a tremendous impact upon those who go into it. If you go into a building in which one room is full of dinosaurs, the next room is full of wires, and the third full of old trains, you are going to have a segmented view of knowledge which is going to have a deep effect upon the young person who goes there, who has been taught about Tauhid, about Unity, about the Unity of knowledge, about the Unity of God, the Unity of the universe. There is going to be a dichotomy created in him. You must be able to integrate knowledge.
The problem [is] that with the increase of success of both the teaching of science and the technology, will bring with it a cultural dislocation [and] philosophical questioning which have to be answered especially at a time when the Islamic world does not want to play the role of a dead duck. There is not a moment in the history of Islam, when the muslims like the other great civilizations of Asia are trying to play the game of the West. The Islamic world wants to pull its own weight, wants to finds its own identity, and therefore this problem is going to be acute.
Secondly, I believe that [a] very major crisis [is being] set afoot by the very application of modern technology, that is the environmental crisis. [This crisis is] of course global. You cannot say, `I am drawing a boundary around my country, I do not want the hole in the ozone zone, [to make] the sun shine upon my head'. You have no choice in that. Because of that, and because of the fact that Islamic countries, like Buddhist countries, like Hindu countries, will always eat from the bread crumbs of Western technology in the situation of the world today, more of an attempt is made towards the direction of alternative technologies. [This] began in Iran in the seventies, and thank God, is still going on a little, and [in] other places [like] Eygpt where a little [attempt] to spend some of the energy of society towards alternative technology [is being made]. [All of] which also means to try to look upon science as the mother of technology in somewhat of a different way.
And finally, I think, the intellectual effort is now being made. What is called by some people, the Islamisation of knowledge and which is now very popular, [and] which goes back to some of my own humble writings in the fifties, and later on, the treatise written by the late Ismail Al-Faruqui who was assassinated in Philadelphia two years back. This little treatise he wrote called, ``The Islamisation of Knowledge'', is now being discussed in educational conferences throughout the Islamic World, [which] is finally going to bear some fruit. Although it will require much more concerted effort of the most intelligent and gifted members of the Islamic community, who must know Western science in depth, who must know Islamic thought in depth, the cosmological message of the Quran, not only its ethical message, and at the same time have the energy to pursue this through. The task is a very daunting and difficult one. The problem of the partition of science from Islam is a problem that exists unless Islam is willing to give up its claim to being a total way of life. [If that were so], we must suppress not only what we do on Friday noons, but what we do and think every moment of our daily lives. It is going to preserve an integrated principle that of course must also be taken into consideration. "
BS: I think, that you might learn a great deal more on this subject by investigating, how not only Islam but also Christianity had and to some extent still has problems with what you call "Western Science". Try ask the Pope or the Christian Fundamentalists. Anyway, let us take a break.
SS: Good idea. It is also soon time for prayer, but first may I offer you some tea, or do you prefer coffee?
BS: Tea is fine, thank you.
Thorbiorn: As we have seen in this staged discussion people are joining Islam and parting with Islam. And like other religions to a varying degree, Islam has a serious issue with itself. It is apparent that the internal problems explained by Dr. Seyyid Hossein Nasr have not been completely solved since his talk.
To find a meeting point between the views of SS and BS is not easy, though they both agree on spreading the knowledge of Islam, their approach and objectives are very different.
Thorbiorn