Denisovans - 400,000 year-old clue to human origins

KJN

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/science/at-400000-years-oldest-human-dna-yet-found-raises-new-mysteries.html?_r=0


Baffling 400,000-Year-Old Clue to Human Origins
Carl Zimmer, New York Times

Scientists have found the oldest DNA evidence yet of humans’ biological history. But instead of neatly clarifying human evolution, the finding is adding new mysteries.

In a paper in the journal Nature, scientists reported Wednesday that they had retrieved ancient human DNA from a fossil dating back about 400,000 years, shattering the previous record of 100,000 years.
The fossil, a thigh bone found in Spain, had previously seemed to many experts to belong to a forerunner of Neanderthals. But its DNA tells a very different story. It most closely resembles DNA from an enigmatic lineage of humans known as Denisovans. Until now, Denisovans were known only from DNA retrieved from 80,000-year-old remains in Siberia, 4,000 miles east of where the new DNA was found.

The mismatch between the anatomical and genetic evidence surprised the scientists, who are now rethinking human evolution over the past few hundred thousand years. It is possible, for example, that there are many extinct human populations that scientists have yet to discover. They might have interbred, swapping DNA. Scientists hope that further studies of extremely ancient human DNA will clarify the mystery.

“Right now, we’ve basically generated a big question mark,” said Matthias Meyer, a geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and a co-author of the new study.

Hints at new hidden complexities in the human story came from a 400,000-year-old femur found in a cave in Spain called Sima de los Huesos (“the pit of bones” in Spanish). The scientific team used new methods to extract the ancient DNA from the fossil.

“This would not have been possible even a year ago,” said Juan Luis Arsuaga, a paleoanthropologist at Universidad Complutense de Madrid and a co-author of the paper.

Finding such ancient human DNA was a major advance, said David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School who was not involved in the research. “That’s an amazing, game-changing thing,” he said.

Since the 1970s, Spanish scientists have brought out a wealth of fossils from the cave dating back hundreds of thousands of years. “The place is very special,” said Dr. Arsuaga, who has found 28 nearly complete skeletons of humans during three decades of excavations.

Based on the anatomy of the fossils, Dr. Arsuaga has argued that they belonged to ancestors of Neanderthals, which lived in western Asia and Europe from about 200,000 to 30,000 years ago.

When Dr. Meyer and his colleagues drilled into the femur, they found ancient human DNA inside, just as they had hoped.

“Our expectation was that it would be a very early Neanderthal,” Dr. Meyer said.

But the DNA did not match that of Neanderthals. Dr. Meyer then compared it to the DNA of the Denisovans, the ancient human lineage that he and his colleagues had discovered in Siberia in 2010. He was shocked to find that it was similar.

“Everybody had a hard time believing it at first,” Dr. Meyer said. “So we generated more and more data to nail it down.”

The extra research confirmed that the DNA belonged on the Denisovan branch of the human family tree.

The new finding is hard to reconcile with the picture of human evolution that has been emerging based on fossils and ancient DNA. Denisovans were believed to be limited to East Asia, and they were not thought to look so Neanderthal-like.

Based on previously discovered ancient DNA and fossil evidence, scientists generally agreed that humans’ direct ancestors shared a common ancestor with Neanderthals and Denisovans that lived about half a million years ago in Africa.

Their shared ancestors split off from humans’ lineage and left Africa, then split further into the Denisovans and Neanderthals about 300,000 years ago. The evidence suggested that Neanderthals headed west, toward Europe, and that the Denisovans moved east.

Humans’ ancestors, meanwhile, stayed in Africa, giving rise to Homo sapiens about 200,000 years ago. Humans then expanded from Africa into Asia and Europe about 60,000 years ago. They then interbred not only with Neanderthals, but with Denisovans, too. Later, both the Denisovans and Neanderthals became extinct.

“Now we have to rethink the whole story,” Dr. Arsuaga said.

Dr. Arsuaga doubts that Denisovans were spread out across so much of the Old World, from Spain to Siberia, masquerading as Neanderthals.

One alternative explanation is that the humans of Sima de los Huesos were not true Neanderthals, but belonged to the ancestors of both Denisovans and Neanderthals.

It is also possible that the newly discovered DNA was passed to both Neanderthals and Denisovans, but eventually disappeared from Neanderthals, replaced by other variants.

“It got lost in one lineage but made its way in the other,” suggested Jean-Jacques Hublin, a Max Planck paleoanthropologist who was not involved in the research.

Beth Shapiro, an expert on ancient DNA at the University of California, Santa Cruz, favors an even more radical possibility: that the humans of Sima de los Huesos belong to yet another branch of humans. They might have been a species called Homo erectus, which originated about 1.8 million years ago and became extinct within the last few hundred thousand years.

“The more we learn from the DNA extracted from these fossils, the more complicated the story becomes,” Dr. Shapiro said.

This complicated story has come to light only because of advances over the past 20 years in retrieving ancient DNA.

When an organism dies, its DNA breaks down into smaller and smaller fragments, while also becoming contaminated with the DNA of other species like soil bacteria. So piecing the fossil DNA together is a bit like putting together a jigsaw puzzle created by a sadist.

In 1997, Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute and his colleagues, who had pioneered the techniques for retrieving DNA fragments, published a snippet of DNA from a Neanderthal fossil dating back about 40,000 years. They and other scientists then built on this success by searching for bits of DNA from other Neanderthals.

In 2006, a team of French and Belgian researchers obtained a fragment of Neanderthal DNA dating back 100,000 years, which until now held the record for the oldest human DNA ever found.

Meanwhile, using improved methods, Dr. Paabo, Dr. Meyer and their colleaguesassembled a rough draft of the entire Neanderthal genome in 2010.

That discovery shed light on how Neanderthals and humans’ ancestors split from a common ancestor hundreds of thousands of years ago. It also revealed that Neanderthals and humans interbred about 50,000 years ago.

Around the same time as that discovery, Russian collaborators sent the Max Planck team 80,000-year-old fossils they had found in a cave in Siberia called Denisova. When the German scientists sequenced the entire genome from the finger bone of a girl, it turned out to be neither human nor Neanderthal, but from a separate lineage, which Dr. Paabo and his colleagues named Denisovans.

Dr. Meyer is hopeful that he and his colleagues will be able to get more DNA from the Spanish fossil, as well as other fossils from the site, to help solve the puzzle they have now stumbled across. “It’s extremely hard to make sense of,” Dr. Meyer said. “We still are a bit lost here.”
 
Re: New 400,000 year-old clue to human origins

There's a similar article up here:

http://www.sott.net/article/269664-Discovery-of-400000-year-old-DNA-raises-questions-about-human-evolution
 
Re: New 400,000 year-old clue to human origins

Thanks, sorry I missed it.
 
Re: New 400,000 year-old clue to human origins

The Denisovan story really interests me. I had my DNA tested last year and was supposedly found to be 5% Denisovan. I have *zero* connection to Oceanic or Pacific peoples, both my maternal and paternal family lines are primarily northern European.
 
I just finished reading Svante Pääbo's book about sequencing the genome of Neanderthals and then Denisovans. Chills ran up and down my spine when I realized the Cs had described the Denisovans in 1997 as "Parantha's". What is really odd is that Ark was at the Max Planck Institute at the time of this session and Pääbo is with the Max Planck peeps though in Leipzig.

Here's the excerpt with full context:

31May97 said:
Q: And you are not going to tell us what they are doing over there in the Max Planck Institute?

A: As Carlos Allende would say: "If you knew, you would die of shock."

Q: That is NOT friendly! I don't want to know things that are not friendly. Now, you have got me so startled that I don't even know if the path I am following in researching the history and the other things is even worthwhile or useful.

A: Oh, you bet it is!!!!!

Q: Is the historical research going to gradually bring me to this knowledge that would cause me to now 'die of shock?'

A: Maybe.

Q: In the information I now have on the Canaries, I found that a strange icon appeared on the island long before the conquest, long before any missionaries or Europeans arrived. The natives were the big, blond types. They said that they knew this icon was divine because following its appearance, there were processions of angels, or divine beings, up and down the beach where it appeared, lights, smells, chanting and singing and so forth. How did the statue of the Virgin of Candelaria arrive on the beach at Tenerife?

A: Teleportation.

Q: Who teleported it there?

A: The "Celts."

Q: Celts in the sense of the Druids?

A: Or in the sense of Atlanteans.

Q: Now, you said before that Atlanteans were not Celts, is that correct?

A: No.

Q: The Atlanteans were Celts?

A: "Celts, Druids," etc... are merely latter day designations.

Q: Let's back up here. You said that the Celts came from Kantek. They were transported by the Lizzies... brought here, correct?

A: Yes.

Q: When the Lizzies did this, how many Celts were physically brought here?

A: Hundreds of millions.

Q: How long, in our terms, did it take to bring these Celts to this planet? Or, is this ongoing?

A: Well, in the sense that you measure it, let us say about a week.

Q: Did they transport them in ships, that is some sort of structure. That is, did they load them up, move them into 4th density, reemerge here in 3rd density, or something like that?

A: Close.

Q: And they unloaded them in the area of the Caucasus, is that correct?

A: And regions surrounding.

Q: And, that was what, 79 to 80 thousand years ago?

A: Over 80,000.

Q: As I understand it, Atlantis was already quite a developed civilization at that time, is that correct?

A: Yes, but regions change with waves of immigration, or conquest... witness your own lands.

Q: You also said once that there was a nuclear war in India and that this was what was being discussed in the Vedas when it talks about the 'blue-skinned' people who weren't really blue because they were Celts, and they were flying in aircraft, and they were engaged in this war, etc. Who were the Celts at war with?

A: The Paranthas.

Q: Now, wait a minute! Who are the Paranthas?! Do we have a new player here?

A: Not new.

Q: Do we know them by another name?

A: Choose.

Q: The Atlanteans? Were the Celts of India at war with the Atlanteans in the Atlantic?

A: Atlantis was merely a home base of an advanced civilisation of 3 races of humans occupying different sections of a huge Island empire, which, in itself, underwent 3 incarnations over a 100,000 year period as you would measure it.

Q: The 3 races were the Celts... and who were the second and third?

A: Or Kantekkians.

Q: Are the Kantekkians different from the Celts?

A: Only in the sense of long term racial and genetic blending.

Q: So, Atlantis had the Kantekkians and who else?

A: Race you would call "Native Americans," and a third, no longer existing race, somewhat resembling Australian or Guinean aborigines, only lighter in complexion.

Q: Was this third group destroyed by the other two?

A: One of the 3 cataclysms.

Q: Paranthas. Who were the Paranthas?

A: Nation of race mentioned above.

Q: So, the Paranthas were the antecedents of the Abos of Australia?

A: Yes, and compare to now existing peoples of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Australia, and New Guinea for similarities, bearing in mind genetic mixing and dilution.

Q: Were the Vedas written by the Paranthas or written by the Celts?

A: Descendants of Parantha, as per "Divine guidance."

Q: That explains a LOT. I was just thinking about it the other day. If these people in India are related to the Celts, as philologists would have us believe due to language roots, there is no way I can understand this because they are simply NOTHING like them in any way. … Okay, I think that you said that this nuclear war happened something like 50,000 years ago. We have taken care of a couple of points; we have 3 races on Atlantis, Celts all over the place... did the Celts conquer the Atlanteans?

A: No.

Q: Did they just move in and hang out?

A: They took over the Northern section.

Q: At the same time, there were Celts in the Caucasus, along the Baltic, in Ireland, England and Europe...

A: Ireland, England, etc. was later.

Q: But there were in the Norse lands, as Sweden, Norway and Denmark, they were along the Baltic, and they were in the Caucasus?

A: Some above mentioned areas were ice covered.

Q: When the philologists track the language roots, they arrive at the Kurgan region, north and west of the Caucasus. Is that where the Celts went when Atlantis was destroyed?

A: Close.

Q: Were the Celts the tall blonds known as the 'Sons of Anak,' who ruled over the Sumerians as described by Sitchen?

A: "Celts" are what remains of the original prototype.

Q: Okay. Kantekkians. When did...

A: Gravity differences account for the height difference

Q: When did the Kantekkians, or Celts or whatever arrive on the Canary Islands?

A: 12,000 years ago.

Q: Did they arrive there from Atlantis directly?

A: Close.

Q: Where from?

A: Confused by trauma.

Q: What does that mean?

A: Guess.

Q: Did they come from underground?

A: Some.

Q: Were they part of the underground race?

A: No Laura. What "trauma" do you think we are referring to??

Q: The comet cluster? The Flood of Noah?

A: Close enough.

Q: When did the Celts or Kantekkians first take up residence in the British Isles?

A: Same. 12,000 years ago.

Q: Were the Picts also Celts?

A: No, Atlantean. Remember, "Celt" is latter day moniker.

Q: Were the Picts Kantekkians?

A: Originally.

Q: Was Abraham a Kantekkian? Was the story of Abraham the story of the Kantekkians being brought to Earth?

A: No.

Q: Was Abraham a Kantekkian or a derivation?

A: Latter. But, so are you.

Q: Were the Jews that were genetically engineered and then planted in the Middle East... what year was this?

A: 130,000 years ago.

Q: Good grief! Have they managed to retain any racial purity for that long?

A: No.

Q: Cayce talks about the division in Atlantis between the "Sons of One" and the "Sons of Belial." Was this a racial division or a philosophical/ religious division?

A: It was the latter two, and before that, the former one.

Q: When it was a racial division, which group was it?

A: The Sons of Belial were the Kantekkians.

Q: Well! That is not good!

A: Subjective... you are not bodies, you are souls.
 
I tend to get confused with the words , Modern Humans, Homo Sapiens and Kantekannians

Is all modern humans including Negros and Native Americans are Homosapiens ? - Yes, I think

If Homosapiens burst in to scene 40K years ( as main stream science ) , C's say Kantekanians were brought here 80K with carbon dating error of factor 2, Does all modern humans are Kantekanians?

If Atlantis has the history of 100K years and Kantekanians came only 80K back, are there any body other than Neanderthals exist before that. Now, Denisovan seems to be there but their DNA seems to be different than modern human and they are extinct.

I am sorry if It is already covered before.
 
seek10 said:
I tend to get confused with the words , Modern Humans, Homo Sapiens and Kantekannians

Is all modern humans including Negros and Native Americans are Homosapiens ? - Yes, I think

If Homosapiens burst in to scene 40K years ( as main stream science ) , C's say Kantekanians were brought here 80K with carbon dating error of factor 2, Does all modern humans are Kantekanians?

If Atlantis has the history of 100K years and Kantekanians came only 80K back, are there any body other than Neanderthals exist before that. Now, Denisovan seems to be there but their DNA seems to be different than modern human and they are extinct.

I am sorry if It is already covered before.

Yes the mainstream view has some dating problems and an everybody out of Africa problem but yes Negros and Native Americans would be before the Kantekkians who relate (close said the Cs) to Cro-Magnon aka Homo sapiens sapiens (Homo sapiens subspecies). Nice to have the Paranthas related to the Denisovans. A couple weeks ago I was talking on another forum to a guy from Australia who is into the Younger Dryas Impact hypothesis and the Australian aborigine Dream Time myths and I had mentioned the Paranthas and the other two races of Atlantis via quoting from this forum. I think the Cs said there have been many 3rd density groups on earth; there was the Lemurians and some really tall people in Antarctica for example. Extinct groups like Lemurians, Denisovans, and Neanderthals can still have genes that show up in our current out of Africa and out of Kantek populations.
 
seek10 said:
I tend to get confused with the words , Modern Humans, Homo Sapiens and Kantekannians

Is all modern humans including Negros and Native Americans are Homosapiens ? - Yes, I think

If Homosapiens burst in to scene 40K years ( as main stream science ) , C's say Kantekanians were brought here 80K with carbon dating error of factor 2, Does all modern humans are Kantekanians?

If Atlantis has the history of 100K years and Kantekanians came only 80K back, are there any body other than Neanderthals exist before that. Now, Denisovan seems to be there but their DNA seems to be different than modern human and they are extinct.

I am sorry if It is already covered before.

Yeah, I have trouble sorting it out because my head is also full of the mainstream history.

What the mainstream history tells us is that Neanderthals were present and thriving, more or less, for a very long time until modern homo sapiens came along. Neanderthals then disappeared. The dna says that there was gene flow from Neanderthals into HS. Thing is, all groups OUTSIDE of Africa have Neanderthal dna, but none INSIDE. So, the current theory is that modern HS evolved in Africa, spread in Africa, and then some group moved up into the Middle East where they mixed with Neanderthals and after that, this mixed group spread over the world.

The picture was then complicated by the discovery of the Denisovans. So now the theory is that the Denisovans and Neanderthals mixed up a bit and the Denisovans also mixed up with an even older hominem type for the mtDNA, and then, when modern humans were spreading after their sojourn in the Middle East where they hung out with Neanderthals on their way out of Africa, they mixed up with the Denisovans.

So, basically, nowadays, everybody is "modern human" but there are some genetic survivals of the older, extinct types because of this intermixing.
 

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Now, apparently, since the first sequencing of DNA events, the methods have gotten a little better and a number of papers have been written about particular populations. Here is a map that tries to sort this out. The colored blotches are areas where there is Neanderthal DNA in modern humans and the dots are the Denisovan DNA. But this doesn't purport to be a final assessment, just a reflection of a few limited studies.
 

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Also, it now seems that there were quite a few Denisovan types in China. Apparently, a skull or two has been found to go with the finger and toe bones and teeth found in Denisova. The skull makes it possible to compare.
 

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It seems to me, after reading all this mainstream stuff, that there is obviously something missing. Yes, they have a fairly reasonable "story" about evolution and a bunch of fossils and artifacts that they use to bolster their case, but they keep hitting up against the "improbable" sudden events.

They have Neanderthals and Denisovans and Homo Sapiens, three main types that show up in the genetic record. The Cs say the three main types were Native Americans, Paranthas and then the newcomer Kantekkians. What the mainstream seems to be missing is the Native American type and that position is occupied by Neanderthals. But Neanderthals were a European/Central Asian thing. I know of no mainstream source that suggests they were ever in the Americas. And, of course, the mainstream discourse is that the Americas were populated by the "across the Bering Strait" hypothesis which supports the "out of Africa" hypothesis.

I'm still somewhat uncertain about what to make of the diversity of Africa. They say that two bushmen from different parts of Africa are further apart in DNA than say a European from Chinese.

Then there is the issue of the homogeneity of blood type in the Americas before the European invasion. Type O. How does that relate to the "across the Bering Strait" scenario? One would think that a long time without incomers would lead to genetic/blood type homogeneity. But they say that the long time "evolving" in Africa is what led to the extreme diversity. A lot just doesn't make sense. Also, in another place, E.O. Wilson talks about a lot of diversity of genetic types in a location and attributes it to immigration into the area; and this just after he assures the reader that the diversity of Africa is due to NO immigration.

The story the mainstream scientists tell is plausible up to a point and they produce their artifacts and dna results to prove it. But it really has problems they are not addressing.

The fact that the Cs came up with the Paranthas in terms that closely match the Denisovans, YEARS before this DNA discovery was even possible much less done, sort of gives me the idea that the Cs may be more reliable.

One thing seems sure, repeated cataclysms would churn things up and, in most cases, completely destroy traces of early civilizations. So, I think I'm going to be re-reading "Forbidden Archaeology" again just to see what may connect.
 
Some time ago I came across this chart from Nature where a "mystery" hominin may have interbred with Denisovans to complicate things even further.

nature-siberian-neanderthals-17.02.16-v2.png


Also, African genetics are not well studied because for a long time it was assumed that after the "out of Africa" migration, the continent was isolated from the rest of the world. There are now indications that migrations occurred in different directions like here:_https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502 :

Based on the age of macrohaplogroup L3, from which all maternal Eurasian and the majority of African lineages originated, that out-of-Africa event has been dated around 60-70 kya. On the opposite side, we have proposed a northern route through Central Asia across the Levant for that expansion. Consistent with the fossil record, we have dated it around 125 kya. To help bridge differences between the molecular and fossil record ages, in this article we assess the possibility that mtDNA macrohaplogroup L3 matured in Eurasia and returned to Africa as basic L3 lineages around 70 kya.

I think one useful way to see these interactions between ancient population is to disconnect them from geography, at least as such early stages of inquiry, and to consider human dynamics in a non spatial (as in the chart above) context first due to the lack of evidence the further one goes in the past.
 
Read Berger's "Almost Human" today about the discovery of two new hominems in South Africa. Makes it pretty clear that the constructed fossil record links are not as certain as mainstreamers would like one to think. The Homo Naledi type was sort of a mosaic of primitive and modern features and it makes one wonder if there were modern human types going around mating with less that fully modern human types of all sorts and thus leading to a whole lot of diversity with major modern human dna components???

Reminds me of this:

23Oct94 said:
Q: (L) Let's go back to the three forces. You said numerous souls desired physical existence. When the numerous souls did this, how did physical existence come to be?

A: First was apelike.

Q: (L) And then what happened? Did these apelike being just pop into the air? What did the souls do with these apelike beings?

A: Souls altered them by transfer.

Q: (L) Transfer of what?

A: Souls into seeded bodies. Orion Union was first into Neanderthal.

Q: (L) The Orion souls came into Neanderthal bodies?

A: No. Put humans there for incubation process.

Q: (L) Were altered ape embryos put back into ape females for gestation?

A: No. Souls only.

Q: (L) They put the souls into the ape bodies?

A: Close.

Q: (L) Did the soul's presence in the ape body cause its genetics and DNA to change?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) They entered into living creatures on this planet to experience 3 d reality and by entering in caused mutation?

A: Yes. Then were altered by Orion Union first. They resemble you.

Q: (L) Who resembles us?

A: The Orions.
 
Laura said:
seek10 said:
I tend to get confused with the words , Modern Humans, Homo Sapiens and Kantekannians

Is all modern humans including Negros and Native Americans are Homosapiens ? - Yes, I think

If Homosapiens burst in to scene 40K years ( as main stream science ) , C's say Kantekanians were brought here 80K with carbon dating error of factor 2, Does all modern humans are Kantekanians?

If Atlantis has the history of 100K years and Kantekanians came only 80K back, are there any body other than Neanderthals exist before that. Now, Denisovan seems to be there but their DNA seems to be different than modern human and they are extinct.

I am sorry if It is already covered before.

Yeah, I have trouble sorting it out because my head is also full of the mainstream history.

What the mainstream history tells us is that Neanderthals were present and thriving, more or less, for a very long time until modern homo sapiens came along. Neanderthals then disappeared. The dna says that there was gene flow from Neanderthals into HS. Thing is, all groups OUTSIDE of Africa have Neanderthal dna, but none INSIDE. So, the current theory is that modern HS evolved in Africa, spread in Africa, and then some group moved up into the Middle East where they mixed with Neanderthals and after that, this mixed group spread over the world.

The picture was then complicated by the discovery of the Denisovans. So now the theory is that the Denisovans and Neanderthals mixed up a bit and the Denisovans also mixed up with an even older hominem type for the mtDNA, and then, when modern humans were spreading after their sojourn in the Middle East where they hung out with Neanderthals on their way out of Africa, they mixed up with the Denisovans.

So, basically, nowadays, everybody is "modern human" but there are some genetic survivals of the older, extinct types because of this intermixing.
Thank you Laura for the explanation. One more question i had for a while.

2000-04-15
Q: (L) What are they going to do with the old models?

A: "Retire them."

Q: (T) Which race is this?

A: Orion STS.
Q: (L) Is this essentially what happened with Neanderthal?

A: Yup!

Q: (L) Well, for a period of time it seems that they continued to exist on the planet alongside the new model, cro-magnon or whatever.

A: Some did.

Q: (L) For how long did Neanderthal exist side by side with the "new model?"

A: 233 years.
I guess this "new race" is Kantekanians . That is 80K yrs back. They lived only 200 years with Neanderthals.

1994-10-20
Q: When did the Aryans invade India?

A: 8243 years ago.

Q: Who was there before that?

A: Asian tribes and number 3 prototype.

Q: What is a number 3 prototype?

A: Known as Neanderthal man.


Q: And what are we?

A: Number 4 types c and d. Translation into English comprehension.
80K yrs back Kantikaneains came, They lived only 200 yrs with Neanderthals, 50K yrs back, they had a nuclear war with Parantha's. I thought Neanderthals were gone, but it sounded Neanderthals were there in India before aryan invasion 8K yrs back. "before that" didn't sound like 80K years back. Thought interesting.

If we are prototypes 4 c,d - then we are not one proto type at this time. probably underground folks is other ones.

If 309,000 years back this experiment started, then we have 1,2,3,4 what ever the number of types came and gone. That's why they say skeletons are rare to survive.
 
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