Death of Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh at 99 years of age.

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I thought this was a forum where people express all kinds of different opinions? Many conspiracy theories are talked about on this forum... so why are my beliefs on the royal family being seen as so out of context? I have seen some pretty weird stuff posted on this forum, but I never feel the need to call someone's comments ignorant. I find this all very strange. If I don't agree with someone, I try to be respectful and not call names. So, now you are saying I am holding Laura up to superhuman and unreasonable standards? How is that? To expect the administrator of a forum to disagree in a respectful way, rather than being derogatory is holding her up to superhuman standards? I think there's a lot of people who agree with me, but no one will say anything in my defense because of who the other person is... personally, at this point, I could care less about the discussion of the Queen and Prince, I can't believe this all started over a harmless comment I made. I'm not throwing a tantrum, I'm trying to make some sense of what happened.
you had a emotional reaction to being called "Ignorant". Well, Do you think you know of every thing of Prince's life to have informed opinion? Did you ever had this reaction before and more information changed your opinion? If not, probably you are rare.

Often we all wondered about why a person does the way he/she did. Of course, nature and nurture (broader subject based on one's definitions) explains some part. But not always. The power comes with associations and responsibility of use and misuse of associations on which they have limited control. So does PR. The power is given by the people's acceptance.

There is a notion in the West that you are the master of your life and Democracy solves all the problems. True to some extent, but it has its limitations. Most of human existence, it is the Kings and Queens that ruled their subjects which they got it with Knife or Gun. If the West is paragon of Democracy, why did they kept King and Queens still there, while invading the other nations to get rid of their so-called "Oppressive Kings"? Simply, some body (British oligarchy) found them to be useful. Even when India was brought under British Queen, it is a PR activity because they couldn't hide the naked fact that a private company conquered a land and it became hard to justify mercenary activity. So they transferred it to Queen to legitimize it. I am sure there LOT more to the story.

In fact, the story is same, King or democratically elected ruler or so-called communism. They have to run the organizations through civil authorities and they come in all flavors. I think the real issue is their so-called association with pedophiles etc. Unfortunately, this issue is all over the world, through churches or many other ways at different levels. JBP has video's saying supervisor role is not easy as the responsibility gives mental effort. so does the maintaining the acceptability of its subject, even when it is a ceremonial position.
 

Charade

Jedi Master
I don't think Laura's response was cruel or angry, though it might feel that way to you. Laura can be pretty blunt, but it's never personal. So rest assured that there was no personal insult or attack on your person here: she doesn't know you, after all. She was just reacting to your own somewhat heartless comments about the royals and your assumptions about them, and she did actually take the time to answer your question: "Yes, I think that the Queen is a good person within the parameters of her knowledge and experience."

Also, notice that she didn't say that you were an ignorant person. Just that your opinion showed ignorance on this particular topic:

"You are entitled to your opinion, however, in my opinion, your opinion exhibits an abyss of ignorance."

Communication over the Internet is often misleading, and we tend to read many things into someone's comments, things that are just not there. Also, consider the fact that Laura has a lot on her plate, she doesn't have time to make long convoluted responses, so she tends to get to the heart of the matter without mincing words. Sure, sometimes it rubs people the wrong way (it has happened to me too!) But again, there's nothing person

Aquarius1962,

I understand your reaction. I had a similar experience when Laura made a reply to a comment about the romance novels thread of which I was ignorant and simply unaware that it was an important or serious way to accomplish “the Work” with a specific AIM. Without knowing me, Laura made a direct hit at a weak spot in my personality. Her reply to my comment was:

“Don't expect what you are doing to produce the results we are looking for. Obviously, you wish to be on your own. Happy trails.”

I don’t want to leave or not feel welcome to be on my own. Exactly what I don’t want but it would be so easy for me to shutdown and never put myself out here again. Way too easy and too much my natural behavior. I hate to draw attention to myself. I felt unsure about expressing myself already. Laura doesn’t know that about me but it was exactly the blunt response that made me want to do better and face what was a painful reaction for me.

As mentioned above, the fact that Laura took the time to notice my post, at all, was not lost on me. I’m sure she has more important and pressing matters to attend to, and yet, she gave a moment of her awareness by responding. I am so very grateful. I took it constructively and I would rather learn to face a personal challenge. These are confusing times to be living in and it helps to have the people here, taking the time, to offer a hand up. Maybe lighten up and give it another chance. I say that as a hug not a judgement.

I am wondering if some of the giving the Royals the benefit of the doubt doesn’t come from people having read so many of the romance novels. I’ve only read two books so far so it is still early for me to weigh in on but I was thinking while reading that the privileged had time to explore their feelings, probably more than the underling servant types, that allowed them to have more free time in a historical setting without automation and appliances. The upperclass perhaps bear very different sort of pressures creating very different internal perceptions beneficial or not. Always being under constant scrutiny would be difficult as can be seen in the failure of so many successful celebrities ‘who have it all’ but have no sense of how to bear that burden and live with grace and compassion.
 
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Jdgreene

The Force is Strong With This One
Telling me my opinion exhibits an abyss of ignorance, and that my knowledge and attitude are such that maybe this forum isn't for me? So, that's not cruel or angry in your opinion? Do you not think she could have responded to me in a more positive way, without those derogatory phrases like ignorant and lack of knowledge? For someone supposed to be so enlightened, it seems like an awful way to respond to someone. If I had said the same to her, everyone on this forum would be jumping all over me for insulting Laura. I am hurt beyond words, excuse me for my feelings. She was someone I truly looked up to.
I agree, I was shocked and disappointed by that harsh response... So sad.
 

KristinLynne

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Well, that poor woman has my condolences; she sure never had a normal life and did remarkably well in spite of it.
Since I don't know much about the inner workings of the palace nor have a read much on Queen Elizabeth, the historical romances have given me a view into the lives of the peerage. To me, married for as long as they were, through ups and downs is remarkable in itself but to do so with much pressure living her life in a fish bowl is a whole other level.

I once told a friend who works at one of their locations about something I read in a book written by a former employee of one of the royal properties. Apparently a member of staff once had a bit too much to drink and he fell asleep in one of the staff areas. The queen saw him sleeping and discretely approached another member of staff saying that such-and-such seemed to be feeling unwell and maybe someone should go help him. No drama and no harsh consequences resulted from this. The friend said that it did sound like something the queen would do.

Do you happen to remember the name of that book?

Telling me my opinion exhibits an abyss of ignorance, and that my knowledge and attitude are such that maybe this forum isn't for me? So, that's not cruel or angry in your opinion? Do you not think she could have responded to me in a more positive way, without those derogatory phrases like ignorant and lack of knowledge? For someone supposed to be so enlightened, it seems like an awful way to respond to someone. If I had said the same to her, everyone on this forum would be jumping all over me for insulting Laura. I am hurt beyond words, excuse me for my feelings. She was someone I truly looked up to.
I agree, I was shocked and disappointed by that harsh response... So sad.

This is a research forum and there are many, many books that are on the recommended reading list. Having opinions without knowing as much as you can on any subject isn't useful when you are trying to find the truth. Sometimes a lot of responses seem harsh but the raw unvarnished truth is often harsh. Personally I prefer it to candy coated explanations. When and if someone points to a flaw in my thinking, I know I have to reaccess my thinking because getting to the truth of things is what I want. It is sometimes painful but it is done to help each of us. I know I have so very much to learn and this is the best place I have found yet.
 

iamthatis

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I agree, I was shocked and disappointed by that harsh response... So sad.

Telling me my opinion exhibits an abyss of ignorance, and that my knowledge and attitude are such that maybe this forum isn't for me? So, that's not cruel or angry in your opinion? Do you not think she could have responded to me in a more positive way, without those derogatory phrases like ignorant and lack of knowledge? For someone supposed to be so enlightened, it seems like an awful way to respond to someone. If I had said the same to her, everyone on this forum would be jumping all over me for insulting Laura. I am hurt beyond words, excuse me for my feelings. She was someone I truly looked up to.

In light of the emotions coming up, I think it is important to ask if you've ever read the following from Gurdjieff's Paris Groups (1944), where he interrupts a questioner using some plain-speaking vulgar language:

"Perhaps you have not understood everything because of my French. Speak to Mme de Salzmann, who has understood me very well, and can explain my answer to your question. I have told you all. And I hope that if you ask her about what I have said, you will be satisfied by my response – not subjectively, but objectively. Subjectively, there is always opposition. In the subjective (world), there is always a devil. The subjective, the subconscious represents the devil. Conscious is the angel.

Many here do not understand what I have said. They do not have the same ground. I advise them not to busy themselves with what I have said. In the future they may understand the basis of this gentleman’s question, and why I have answered so.

M.W. “Mr Gurdjieff, in important situations I have a feeling an terrible interior emptiness.”

Gurdjieff (interrupting): You have no aim. I advise you to have an aim. I say to you – do not get angry – that today you are shit. But you bear within yourself the possibility of transforming shit into something else. Fix it like an aim: from shit into something (good). You understand me? In this way you can correct all your misunderstandings. It can be a huge (misunderstanding) but all from a small cause. It is the same with all disharmonies. One aspect of it is big, but another is small. All must be big, or all must be small. All of nothing. That is why I say “misunderstanding.” But it can be resolved through what I have indicated.

So, a student asks about a terrible interior emptiness... and Gurdjieff, ostensibly a spiritual master, responds by saying "you are shit." What to make of this exchange? Is Gurdjieff just being rude, impatient, negative? Did his spirituality somehow slip? That's one way of looking at it. Or is he producing a shock in the questioner that can be made use of to detonate another pillar in the false personality? Perhaps it was only this shock that could produce the necessary friction required to start the flame, and begin the process of transformation. Maybe his harsh words were the only thing that were of benefit to this person's soul.

I'm also thinking about all the times that Castaneda was straight up laughed at by Don Juan. It's great to read about and consider in the abstract - the harsh teacher and infuriated student dynamic. But when it happens in our own life, and our own precious self-importance beings to squirm and wail and fight for its territory, somehow it's not so great anymore.

The automatic 'nice, normal, polite' way of interacting ensures that no one ever learns, and we all continue to walk around in a civilized hypnosis. It's a fake way of being. In my life, the people who have been most painful have been my greatest teachers. I initially interpreted their words or behaviours towards me as a personal insult. It felt like a wound, and I turned myself into a victim. Only after some time and reflection have I been able to see that I owed them some thanks. Even if I continued to disagree with their characterization of me, or the situation at hand, the pain offered me a chance to learn something, and another chance to make a conscious choice rather than just react mechanically. This is what it means to learn to disagree, with maturity.

It's been shown that when we face information that runs counter to our beliefs, this registers in the pain region of the brain. So when our beliefs are challenged, it literally hurts. The normal tendency is to double-down into the belief. So one way of looking at it is that pain is information. It's telling you something about yourself. It's telling you something about the other person, too, but my focus these days is inwards. I question my characterizations of others because I am never sure if I am seeing them clearly, or if I am simply seeing what I want to see. This kind of looking takes time and practice, patience. It's more like understanding that each feeling that shows up is a hypothesis in itself, rather than a foregone conclusion, something that is just and good and right.

So the pain is information, sort of like the study material for my current learning cycle. And I'd say that some of the hardest beliefs to confront is my beliefs about myself - that I'm somehow not ignorant, not arrogant. Ironically, self-importance demands that I understand myself to be humble and smart and good. That's how we rewards ourselves, neurologically. We stay away from the pain of looking at ourselves through the eyes of another. I was reflecting the other day that The Work involves consciously laying down neural pathways that associate the reward centre with questioning ourselves and our beliefs, with going willing into the pain of the belief centre, rather than rewarding ourselves in withholding from it. The courage of this manoeuvre is somehow linked to clearer seeing. Perhaps even Seeing.

As such, any chance to question our long-held beliefs is perhaps the greatest gift we can give each other. Every assumption and lie and belief we can remove from our field is making more space for Truth. Even if that truth is simply, "I don't know for sure."

For a long time, I was taught that Queen of England eats babies. So I appreciate this thread - I had a piece of questionable information that had plunked down in my field for a long time. Now I can look at it and try to understand if it is as useful as I thought. Either way, some more space for Truth is being cleared.
 

Jdgreene

The Force is Strong With This One
This is not about whether the queen is evil or not. None of us could possibly know that for certain. That is why I believe the commenter was so taken aback. We can only speculate because we are not all knowing. I have no idea what the truth is in that regard, but I would NEVER imply that someone who has a different opinion is ignorant. I would just say maybe, maybe not but who are we to judge? If we can't have differing opinions on one of the only forums on the internet that is supposed to allow free thought, that is really sad.
This has made me realize that even having direct access to a higher intelligence does not necessarily a kind person make. Even when I disagree with someone I try to always consider how my words will impact them and choose them carefully with love. But anyway...to each their own for sure! All there is are lessons and I certainly learned a monumental one today in this forum!
 

Nachtweide

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Very interesting discussion. The assessment from the point of view of what is visible on the outside can always be wrong or right. Laura believes that her assessment is correct. Aquarian knows that his assessment is correct. In the world of observation, it is a judgment about a possible probability. What I see, hear, and perceive is subject only to my own interpretation, as I am not aware of anyone having even the slightest idea how these people feel in the real world. What they think. I come from an intuitive, emotional world where gut feelings have been trained to survive. What does my feeling say, what does my inner voice say? I personally don't feel anything good and they would not be people I would like to have in my environment. The English royal family has or had for me very few people I liked and who did not make me feel uncomfortable. No one knows the royals. We know images, words, a feigned ideal world. What is actually hidden behind these walls, we can only guess. In Germany, there is a nice phrase for this: angels on the street - devils in the house. Perhaps also the illusion of evil.

Just my 2 cents
 

BHelmet

The Living Force
IMO what is interesting and instructive, if uncomfortable here, is the disruption or division among forum participants over this. Quite the test tube example for all sorts of considering! Thin skin, hurt feelings, projections, fragile egos, etc. I think the C's commented on and warned about this sort of fracturing a few years ago. It IS a good idea to check the egos at the door, take a deep breath, count to ten and not react out of hasty negative emotions and then try to see things from some new angles. Re-read things without being a bull seeing a red cape and immediately charging.

I mean to say this is a classic lesson to learn from. And, I think it is beneficial to see it in that light in order to remove it from being so personal.

One lesson I learned in this life is that the lesson isn't always about who is "right". Or how things "look".
 

BHelmet

The Living Force
One more thing that fits, I think I recall the C's saying "Pity those who pity".
I am pretty indifferent to this news. No royals got out their hankies when my dad passed away. No hard feelings. Just the way it is.
As for who has a hard life? All humans on this planet.
But, as a famous wiseacre once said: some already have their reward.
 

Candice

Jedi
If we can't have differing opinions on one of the only forums on the internet that is supposed to allow free thought, that is really sad.
Maybe someone can correct me but as far as I’m aware this forum was not created to indulge “different opinions”. It’s a place of research, a place to practice critical thinking, to think with a hammer. Imagine if we indulged every “opinion” with equal weight, we would be mired in the mud for eternity. No thanks.
This has made me realize that even having direct access to a higher intelligence does not necessarily a kind person make. Even when I disagree with someone I try to always consider how my words will impact them and choose them carefully with love.
Well maybe we should have a separate thread on the nature of “kindness” and what this word means, both subjectively and objectively.

In the external world “kindness” often equates to the need to show external consideration to another. Alternatively if we showed objective “kindness” of providing them the truth, this would cause them to most likely discombulate and reject the truth due to their cognitive dissonance.

Here though on the forum I prefer the objective “kindness” of the truth, truth does not care for our feelings.

Are we here to be coddled? Or are we here to learn, to push ourselves past the subjective boundaries of our personal biases and programming.

I don’t take this to mean one must just believe everything Laura or an administrator says as fact. If they say something that goes against one of your beliefs, take it as an opportunity to question your internal belief system. An opportunity to go out and research for yourself, maybe you’ll find something to share here to prove your original belief or maybe you’ll find something that changes your belief entirely.

We have very limited time to filter the truth from the mud, to progress on the path to “seeing” reality as is. There is no time for coddling hurt egos. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
 
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