BMI a

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eagles fly free

Guest
It was reported today in the news that the airline company BMI has prohibited their crews to carry the Bible with them when they fly to Saudi Arabia but it allows them to carry the Coran. The reason given is that of fear that they will upset the Muslims. A member of the staff is suing them for this.

I personally donot know if it is the law that prohibits foreigners to have their personal religious book with them for personal use and if such law exists how much strictly is enforced taking into consideration the number of foreign workers living and working in Saudi Arabia. I am pretty sure that a law must exist that does not allow any religion, other the official that is, to try and convert somebody to your religion. Such laws exist in many western countries and they are acceptable as they allow you to believe in whatever religion you want as long as you donot breach the rights of other people.

In my house I have a copy of the Bible as well as a copy of the Coran as well other religious books from other religions. I have read parts of all of them and I have to say that I have found passages in all of them that I found that they had something to offer to me no matter if I belong to one or the other religion because those books were written for all to read freely and not only for the believers.

BMI is another example of the a
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
eagles fly free said:
I am pretty sure that a law must exist that does not allow any religion, other the official that is, to try and convert somebody to your religion.
I dunno if it exists either but I'd imagine such a law would be very difficult to define, and even more difficult to enforce. How does one define "try to convert"? You could just start talking about your religion and someone could see that as "trying to convert", even if it's not your intention at all.

eagles fly free said:
BMI is another example of the aiii
 
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paulnotbilly

Guest
Prior to going to Saudi Arabia in Feb 2003, I was warned that it's not advisable to take a bible with you as the possibility exists it would be confiscated. This was to stop people taking 'family' bibles and 'large' bibles, a small - pocket bible would be most likely not confiscated.
 

Ruth

The Living Force
paulnotbilly said:
Prior to going to Saudi Arabia in Feb 2003, I was warned that it's not advisable to take a bible with you as the possibility exists it would be confiscated. This was to stop people taking 'family' bibles and 'large' bibles, a small - pocket bible would be most likely not confiscated.
Is this because they are 'confiscating' a banned item or 'aquiring' a thing of value? Maybe bibles are hard to get in Saudi Arabia and so their value is increased?

I never thought Arabs were particularly against religion (of any sort), but their attitude to other peoples property may (or may not - I don't know) be a little more 'flexible'. I suppose, from the point of view of Saudi Arabia, they could be a lot more strict about religious matters, seeing as Mecca is located in their country and they may consider themselves to be the 'spiritual overseers' of the Arab world.
 

Amoeba

Jedi
It is true if they see bible they may confiscate it. But then again they are not looking too closely at luggage these days. I work and live in Saudi Arabia and in the last few years travelling in and out of the country many times, and they never opened by bags. You just put it in the X-Ray machine and that's it. No way to tell a kids maths text book from the bible on x-ray machines. Also usually there are no body searches when you come in. So pocket bibles may get through.

Now to Ruth's commnet: I dont think they are taking it as a 'valuable item'. This is a deeply religious country. So they dont allow things belonging to other religion. As I said in the beginning of my post there is no thorough search of incoming passengers. So lets just they 'officially' you cannot bring such things as bible. :)

Sleepingboy
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
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FOTCM Member
Seems to me that this is an attempt to encourage the "clash of civilisations". White anglo-saxon british people, who have never cared for religion, may now feel themselves getting a little indignant about the fact that, if they ever wanted to, they would not now be allowed to carry a bible in such circumstances. People may start to believe that their "rights" are being infringed, and may start to blame those "bloody muslims" even more. All grist for the "Islamic terror" mill, providing "evidence" that "Islamic extremism" and therefore "Islamic terror", is real. When in fact it is not.

From this, it sounds like the next stage-managed "people power" revolution may well be centered on religion. That it, and those leaders who use it to justify wars, must all be done away with.

But who, or what, will replace them?

Joe
 
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eagles fly free

Guest
Dear Joe and all

I will agree with joe that 'political correctnes' is another way to stir a situation that does not exist. One ingridient you need and it is always there is a few radicals and a small wind in one place becomes a hurricane in another.

Best regards and Merry Christmas to all
 

ark

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eagles fly free said:
Dear Joe and all

I will agree with joe that ''political correctnes'' is another way to stir a situation that does not exist. One ingridient you need and it is always there is a few radicals and a small wind in one place becomes a hurricane in another.

Best regards and Merry Christmas to all
I have an answer, my friends. And it was found by someone else:

How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand
How many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they are forever banned
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind

How many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea
How many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free
How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky
How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind
And on this note: Merry Christmas!
 
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paulnotbilly

Guest
Ruth said:
Is this because they are 'confiscating' a banned item or 'acquiring' a thing of value? Maybe bibles are hard to get in Saudi Arabia and so their value is increased?
Probably more like 'acquiring', we was provided with 'paper' versions of documents, (ID cards, driving license etc). The reason being that if the Saudi military police asked for a document, once handed over you wouldn't see it again.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I was never a fan of rock, or Led Zeppelin, but I just noticed that the song "Stairway to Heaven" seems to be full of alchemical references, in terms of fusing the real "I" etc. I just noticed the line "Your stairway lies on the whispering wind" and it reminded me of Ark's post above. So here are the lyrics:

Stairway to Heaven said:
There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven
And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed
With a word she can get what she came for

Woe oh oh oh oh oh
And she's buying a stairway to heaven

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
And you know sometimes words have two meanings
In the tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven

Woe oh oh oh oh oh
And she's buying a stairway to heaven

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west
And my spirit is crying for leaving
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who stand looking

Woe oh oh oh oh oh
And she's buying a stairway to heaven

And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forest will echo with laughter

And it makes me wonder

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May Queen

Yes there are two paths you can go by
but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

Your head is humming and it won't go because you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady can't you hear the wind blow and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our souls
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
Woe oh oh oh oh oh
And she's buying a stairway to heaven

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven
And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed
With a word she can get what she came for

And she's buying a stairway to heaven, uh uh uh.
Am I reading too much into it? There are references to "gold" as in alchemical transmutation. Stairway to heaven - the stairway of developing our consciousness through knowledge and Work, being more and more free with each step? "Buying" an indication of no free lunch, not just freely receiving, but involves a "payment". Mentions "doublespeak" and "sign on the wall" and conditioned thoughts and then the process of waking up by acquiring reason, collectively singing the right "tune"? Talking about 2 paths - entropy/STS and creativity/STO? Then that reference to the whispering wind - not sure what that refers to though. Maybe the C's? And then our shadows (personality?) taller than soul (essence?) and then how "all are one and one is all" again another fusion of the "I" reference perhasp - also with being a rock (having a permanent and developed self) as opposed to rolling (many i's constantly changing positions).
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
ScioAgapeOmnis said:
I was never a fan of rock, or Led Zeppelin, but I just noticed that the song "Stairway to Heaven" seems to be full of alchemical references, in terms of fusing the real "I" etc. I just noticed the line "Your stairway lies on the whispering wind" and it reminded me of Ark's post above.
Bob Dylan's song and Stairway to Heaven reminded me of the "staircase" that is explained in Gnosis (by Boris Mouravieff) which ends up with the second birth when the Real I "fuses" with the personality.

ScioAgapeOmnis said:
Am I reading too much into it?
Well, someone even wrote an essay of the song "Stairway to Heaven". I guess it can be entertaining to make alchemical references :) I'll post it here...
From http://www.quantumfuture.net/qfs/qfs_rockessays.htm#plant

Stairway to Heaven
Page-Plant

Stairway to Heaven is an enigma of classic rock, a story on many allegorical levels, in the final count about choice and paths to spiritual transformation. The most casual observer could think that buying the stairway to heaven would refer to getting a fix on heroin, for example, but even though the hermeticist may have been no stranger to this, we rather suspect he was inspired to talk about something quite different.

This work, exceptionally rich in symbols, introduces us to the continuous choice between the Right Hand Path of service to others and the Left Hand Path of service to self. The light and the dark can be most subtly intwined, taking ever new forms demanding ever new discernment and choice from the adept of either path.

But why Stairway to Heaven? The stairway can obviously mean a succession of steps or levels, as one reaches a landing, the path continues in another heretofore unseen direction. Or the stairway could be the spiraling staircase of the DNA molecule, since we know from many metaphysical sources that activation of suppressed functions of DNA is key to bringing forth new capabilities and to finally transcending the limits of this world of physicality.

The stairway also brings to mind the shamanic notion of world tree or axis mundi, or ladder, which the shaman uses to move between worlds. We find this idea in Jacobs ladder in the Old Testament, in the fairy tale of Jack and the Beanstalk, in Eliade's studies of shamanism and many others. And is it not coincidental that the folk tale character be named Jack, short for Jacob?

Now how come buying then? One can't actualize one's potential without actualizing one's potential, and thus buying in the sense of the physical may at best procure advice, which may besides more likely benefit the vendor rather than the buyer. Here we come to the first intimation of the duality between the paths of seeking: In a certain sense, the seeker ends up giving all, but the all can be given in two different ways. The romantic prototype of the initiation to the dark side is the story of Faust selling his soul in exchange for genius and knowledge. Is then the payment due to the Right Hand Path the renunciation of life and seclusion into a monastery where one lives the life of a hermit? We think that while this is the path of some, the light can also be served in other ways. Gurdjieff in one of his lectures said that to work on oneself, one must pay with all one has, and pay in advance and in full. By this he meant that one shall let go of any preconceptions or beliefs or any comfort zone of habit and stand naked before transformation. This nakedness allows the soul to come forth and take its place, whereas in the dark side transaction the soul is a commodity fully prostituted to the mind's desires.

But let the hermeticist sing:

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven
And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed
With a word she can get what she came for

Here the seeker begins her journey, thinking that all outside the strict confines of standard religion or materialism is esoteric wisdom. The seeker is a lady maybe to stress that the seeking is a process of intuition and spirit, which are traditionally female rather than male traits. Maybe this is also the Tarot archetype of the Fool merrily and confidently stepping off a cliff. The fool is sometimes pictured as the first, sometimes as the last card of the major arcana. If first, the Fool is the card right before the Magician. The Fool is innocent and in faith, hence lucky and protected. The magician lives of secret knowledge and may be controlling and paranoid. The knowledge of the magician is a step leading to further choice, for choice is always predicated on knowing about alternatives. And were the Fool to be the last, then this would underscrore that all ends as well as begins in mystery. But having come to New Age land, the lady finds that enlightenment is not sold over the counter, even if some may claim to the contrary. So the stores are closed but with a word she can get what she came for. Again, the unsuspecting could think this refers to buying drugs on the street, and maybe it does, still we see beyond the immediate. The word is asking for instruction, and must be pronounced, even if to oneself or the empty street, as a commitment to the path. It is the common adage that the teacher appears when the student is ready. At any rate, the word creates the path.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven
There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
And you know sometimes words have two meanings
In the tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven

Here the hermeticist makes the first explicit mention of the dual paths, and also informs us that their difference can be subtle and hard to discern, even from the inside. Indeed, the very same words can be used with a completely different intent. 'Love' is a case in point: Is it the love of 'if you love someone, set them free' or the love of obsessive, controlling jealousy? So here we have the proverbial writing on the wall, the portent of change.

The brook or stream can refer to a spiritual lineage or school or just path of spiritual exploration in general. We will talk about trees later, for now let us just say a tree can represent the mind or whole person. The bird is a symbol of spirit or inspiration and informs the mind that all of its thoughts indeed can be misgiven. In other words, the mind lives in the matrix uillusion of the Maya and doesn't even know it, except for the bird of the soul telling it, but only at the point where the seeker approaches the stream. Misgiven could mean ill-informed. In the dictionary it is defined as suspicious, doubting, in fear. At a point, the mind feels all of these when treading the path of change.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven
There's a feeling I get when I look to the west
And my spirit is crying for leaving
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who stand looking

Speaketh the hermeticist of the Voice and the Vision? Maybe he doeth. To the Egyptians, the west, being the cardinal point of the sunset, symbolized the afterlife. Still the hermeticist knows that death in the common sense does not answer the spirit’s crying for leaving, for it only initiates another round on the treadwheel of karma, another swim in the swirling sea of Samsara’s ever emerging and dissolving forms of physical illusion. So leaving is not self-destruction, it is mastering the lesson of the world.

We also note that the Dhyani Buddha of the West is Amitabha, who embodies discriminating wisdom, which is the knowledge of the diversity of forms and paths and the final understanding of the unity of all, of which the hermeticist shall speak later. Further, the wisdom of Amitabha is the antidote for cravings and lusts, which further answers the seeker’s call for help overcoming the ties which bind him/her to the world which the spirit cries to leave.

There is a Celtic air to the symbolism here, maybe due to the trees and the music. After all, the word druid means ‘tree speaker’ or ‘oak speaker’ and the oak tree was holy to the druids and structures of oak pillars have been found in Britain’s sacred sites. Ra likens the expanded being to a tree, with roots of mind reaching into the collective archetypal on one hand and the individual spiritual on the other. And the hermeticist sees the voices of those who stand looking? On the outer, this may refer to synestesia, i.e. seeing sounds and hearing colors, but there may be something deeper here. The Earth is known to be a point of considerable cosmic interest at this time, as it is getting ready to make its transition to 4th density. So our guides stand looking, as in gathering to watch the show where mankind plays on the stage of a cosmic drama directed from higher levels. The ones who stand looking are of two polarities, on one hand the 4D STS aliens known for abductions and alleged to conspire with governments for world domination, on the other the higher density STO beings who have throughout history promoted free will and shared knowledge. The voices of those who stand looking direct the prophets of ages and it is the seeker’s task to choose which voice to listen to, as the divine drama is played inside the individual.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven
And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forest will echo with laughter

Here the vision shifts to the veil being lifted and the Earth making a choice for the 4th density positive, or service to others. The whisper is the collective empowerment of mankind, the knowledge subtly delivered through channeling, for example, about the possibility and right to choose, or call the tune. The piper is a mixed symbol, maybe of the guiding – or misguiding - spirits, maybe also of the collective thoughtform of humanity. ‘If we all call the tune’ attests to the power of combined will to affect change, first on the astral, then in the physical. Many channeled sources speak of an exponential increase in intensity when merging minds and intent. The meaning of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel is simply that people lost the ability to understand each other and thus to call the tune in unison, because true unison has been rare indeed ever since. It was an intervention of the negative forces to abridge free will, and we are here now to regain it and to call the tune, for the first time in this run of the loop of history.

Reason here means just objective recognition of what is, without the overlay of ‘desire based imbalance’ as the Cassiopaeans put it. Only in clearly seeing what is can we choose which tune to call. The new day is clear, as the fourth density reality becomes the shared perception of those entering it, when the being transfers its sensory, mental and spiritual reality to that new realm, the veil of separation under which we’ve lived will be lifted. The forest refers to all the united trees of mind/body/spirit for the first time realizing they’ve been a forest all along. The forest is the collective consciousness of 4D humanity.

The liberated laughter balances ‘standing long’ in the shadows of the old age dissolving. Stretching the metaphor, long could also be the elongation of the being, reaching along the vertical axis toward spirit.

And it makes me wonder
If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May Queen

It’s here that the drums kick in and the music takes a more intense, if also ominous air, symbolizing the intensifying experience of choice following the introductory vision. The vision fades and the seer wonders at what he saw from the relative future. Bustle in the hedgerow? A stir in a fence of trees or shrubs?

The bustle could refer to spirit attachments which one clears away from one’ s perimeter. This could on the flip side also be a haunting brought about by magic out of control. This is the part which in reverse allegedly contains a Satanic reference.

The spring clean could refer to sharpening one’s choice before the transit, the blooming of spring of 4th density, as it were.Yes there are two paths you can go by but in the long run There's still time to change the road you're on The hermeticist comes right out and says it, directly referring to the left and right hand paths, which both lead to the 4th density graduation when followed with commitment. Ra tells us that the ones most lost at this time are the recent entries into our present world of 3rd density individuated existence, because they have made neither choice. For ‘older’ souls, the choice becomes increasingly clear as the graduation day approaches. As the choice matures, more spiritual knowledge becomes understood, which in itself is neither STS nor STO, but is necessary for choosing one or the other. In specific, the more will and the more knowledge the being has developed, the better it is able to choose, and thus also to turn from the dark to the light . The light can also be turned to the dark, of course, through promises of personal glory or specialness. Thus as the capacity to choose increases, the choices presented become more and more subtle. The more one is aligned to the light, the more the dark gets clever at faking the light. Likewise, the dark master can choose the light having become disillusioned by being ultimately only the tool of the next more powerful.

In the story of Melarepa, the young black magician becomes the greatest yogi of Tibet, once he changes his path having realized his mother just used his powers to avenge herself and that in spite of his success at his art his life was devoid of meaning. It’s worth a note that in the story nobody ‘saves’ Milarepa. He decides himself to seek instruction from Marpa and to qualify goes through years of ordeals, of his own will, to eventually become a great teacher of the Dharma. In the final sense, the lessons of 3rd density, where the true nature of things is veiled, are complete when one has broken through the veil and firmly chosen either path. The refinement of the path takes place in the vastly different conditions of 4th density where the spiritual alignment is readily discernable.

Your head is humming and it won't go because you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady can't you hear the wind blow and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind

This is the test of the spirit to affirm the choice. The shadow piper, the temptation into the knowledge of the dark side is calling the lady who is confused. Here in the best tradition the hermeticist leaves us many possible interpretations of the symbol of the wind. After all only a choice made in the presence of alternatives is a choice of spiritual import . Thus the dark initiate is only useful to the dark if he has in some sense consented.

The wind blowing can be the internal storm preceding decision, also necessary for clearing the mind of its old patterns, after all the air element refers to the mental.

The hermeticist is challenging the lady, maybe saying that the path is not well founded. Yet the whispering wind can be the spirit gently guiding the mind, and thus a valid path when one follows through with it.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our souls
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold

This is where the grand heavy rock finale starts, underscoring the final revelation of the two paths.

Here the lady has emerged from her test by the dark aspect of the piper. The hermeticist speaks of the dark initiates walking into the sunset of the soul, where the shadows lengthen as the darkness grows nigh. The hermeticist also tacitly acknowledges that bidding for power or knowledge with the dark diminishes the soul and lengthens the shadow, either in terms of assimilation into the dark hierarchy or in terms of karma.

Having retained her original foolhardy purity, the lady having traversed the test of the knowledge and of the doubt and confusion, is illumined and appears lighting the landscape of the dusk of the Age. She represents the Fool become enlightened and reminds the dark initiate of free will. Also gold could be the alchemical gold of personal transformation.

And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll

In the final count the answers are within, in listening to one’s inner guidance which will identify the path to follow. The tune resurfaces here, it could be Krishna playing on his flute in the timeless future of the heaven worlds, inviting the soul to shed the wearisome travels in the vale of duality.

From the context, we get that the tune is the soul’s innate drive to progress, to connect to the stream representing its path of greatest realization. On the path lies the realization of the oneness of all, or the Law of One, as Ra puts it. Still, here too, in line with the general theme of the song, we realize that the Law of One is neutral, blinks at neither the light nor the dark, and has two applications: The realization of the path of service to self embraces all in order to impose unity with the self, to expand the perimeter in order to draw all under the power of the dark adept in a sort of forced unity. Serving the self through serving others appears as inefficient and foolish, when the goal is the aggrandizement of the individual and maintaining a fundamental separateness.

The path of service to others recognizes the divinity in all creation, not exclusively in the self. Thus to serve the self by limiting or at the expense of others does not serve the real, expanded self at all. The unity of the infinite creation is seen as a natural fact, and the adept of the STO path is a co-creative participant in God’s trip to self knowledge via creation. The accent is on expansion and unity in the endless variety of created manifestation, not on manipulation or imposition of a single truth.

The last line of the finale spells out the mastery, to be a rock and not to roll, referring to the alchemical philosopher stone. Note that here the rock is not an external object, it is the adept which creates the rock within. Turning the lead to gold is a metaphor of inner transformation through running the intense experience of the 3rd density of choice, the Earth experience, through the refiner’s fire.

Gurdjeff speaks of crystallization as the result of work on the self, and the rock which the hermeticist becomes is the result of this. Mouravieff similarly speaks of fusing the iron filings of the personality into a solid single block via "fusion of the magnetic center."

Not rolling means that the adept is no longer subject to the shifting winds of the world and is firmly set on the chosen path. There is no end to the journey, but progress past the confusing dualities of the hall of mirrors requires crystallizing the choice.

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven
And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed
With a word she can get what she came for
And she's buying a stairway to heaven, uh uh uh.

The tension breaks and the song returns to its peaceful beginning. This symbolizes the essentially impersonal and archetypal nature of the journey. The lady and the hermeticist went on their way, and a new lady enters the seeking, renewing the cycle.

We know from history that Jimmy Page used to own Aleister Crowley’s former mansion and was no stranger to his writings. Many interpretations of this song have been made, including various reversals, and we invite the interested to search the Internet for these. We haven’t here talked of the history of the manor or other aspects well covered by others but rather sought to approach the universal through the symbolism of the song. Whichever the hermeticist’s result in his seeking was, we thank him for providing this platform for discussing the subject of the Age.
 
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