Astral projection

[ark]

From today's Quantum Quirks:

:)

 

[Jsf]

Chulin :

Firstly, there is a big difference between Monroe's "Inspecs" and the C's, I think: I don't recall the Inspecs encouraging someone to do research on their own, to network, to think with a hammer, and much less to learn the lessons of this realm. They are more like "balls of light" helping you wonder around in their territory, without much explanation. At least in what I've read so far. I apologize if this is not the case in all of his books.

"balls of light" (orb), no, it's more like "body of lights". Once, I saw balls of light in an OBE, they "illuminated" in yellow my body from the inside. INSPECS don't seems to be exactly the same, as I know they are body of light like C's (?). But at this density level I assume changing the aspect of the body is easy.

Secondly, AP shouldn't be needed in order to realize that there is something else apart from the physical body! It's too much risk for that, only. Besides, OBE are usually accompanied by the thought: "Whoah, I can have access to other realities, I must be "spiritually advanced", "important"; etc".

+/-, not in my case and not in the majority of cases I know.

If you've really read Gurdjieff the way we do, then you should know that there is no easy way.

Of course (!!!)

But NOW, what do you do with the realization that there is something else apart from the body?

Practice energy work, maybe ? Do you think it is helpful or it will be naturally developed at the right time ?
See by exemple, the classic manual of astral travelers, New Energy Ways.

If you only promote this practice and your actions don't further, it is better to not even realize that there is something else!

There's much more to do, of course. Please don't think I could disagree with that, you "preach a converted".


Ark :

 

[Adaryn]

Chulin :

But NOW, what do you do with the realization that there is something else apart from the body?

Practice energy work, maybe ? Do you think it is helpful or it will be naturally developed at the right time ?
See by exemple, the classic manual of astral travelers, New Energy Ways.

Now, what do you do FOR OTHERS with the realization that there is something else apart from the body ?
You are only talking about yourself and your advancement here, or so it seems to me. How does practicing energy work help oneself and others liberating from the Matrix ?

 

[Jsf]

How does practicing energy work help oneself and others liberating from the Matrix ?

It can be a part of a global way of understanding things, couldn't it be ?

Q: (SV) I have a question. JR and TR have been taking sort
of lessons from a Buddhist monk. Could this possibly help
them, or us, to go within or help with issues?
A: Any method employed can be helpful for, as you say,
resolving issues or with coming up with answers, if indeed the
effort is sincere and the seeking is genuine, rather than just
going through the motions, as it were.

"Any method employed can be helpful for, as you say,
resolving issues or with coming up with answers"

Just a thought.

 

[Beau]

Quoting that part of the session doesn't really answer Pfr's question. You have to understand that the C's typically leave open the possiblity that anything "can be helpful" for resolving issues. The c's would not direct towards any one kind of method. That is not their style. So, do you see how the session has nothing to do with liberating from the Matrix? Are you finding answers where they are not? Or do you cherrypick what you read in order to further your preconceived notions i.e. AP is good and should be attempted?

 

[Jsf]

So, do you see how the session has nothing to do with liberating from the Matrix?

"anything "can be helpful" for resolving issues..."; issues that themselves had nothing to do with liberating the Matrix ?

I could be hazardous to say that (I'm not at the first hazardous idea hopefully :) ) 4th way makes me think of the tibetan"direct path" ("le sentier direct") as Alexandra David-Néel describes in her books.
She says it is the most risky path, since it's very hard and we can easely "fall" off.

This is an extract of "Mystiques et magiciens du Tibet", chapter VII. Sorry it's in french, maybe google translation could work...

Si nous nous tournons maintenant vers le jeune religieux qui, au lieu de solliciter la direction spirituelle d'un lama membre régulier d'un monastère, s'avise de désirer celle d'un anachorète contemplatif, le tableau change d'aspect.
Les méthodes d'enseignements se font bizarres et parfois dures jusqu'� la barbarie, nous en avons vu des exemples dans les chapitres précédents.
La trilogie : examiner, méditer, comprendre, que j'ai déj� indiquée, prend une force particulière chez les véritables adeptes du "chemin direct" et l'activité intellectuelle du disciple est tout entière dirigée vers ces buts. Parfois, les moyens employés semblent extravagants; mais en y regardant de près, l'on voit que la fin visée est parfaitement raisonnable. L'on peut croire aussi que les inventeurs de ces méthodes connaissaient � fond la mentalité de leur clientèle et les ont modelées en conséquence.
D'après Padmasambhâva, les étapes du progrès spirituel dans la "Voie directe" se succèdent comme suit :
1° Lire une grande quantité de livres sur des religions et des philosophies différentes. Ecouter les discours de beaucoup de savants et de maîtres professant des théories diverses. Expérimenter soi-même nombre de méthodes de toutes espèces:
2° Choisir une doctrine entre toutes celles que l'on a examinées et délaisser les autres, de même que l'aigle choisir sa proie au milieu d'un troupeau;
3° Demeurer dans une situation modeste, avoir une apparence très humble, s'effacer, ne pas chercher � être un des grands du monde. Mais derrière cette façade d'insignifiance, élever son esprit très haut et planer très au-dessus de tous les honneurs et de la gloire terrestre;
4° Etre indifférent � tout. Agir comme le chien ou le porc qui mangent ce que l'occasion leur fournit. Ne point choisir entre les choses qui se présentent. Ne faire aucun effort pour obtenir ou pour éviter; prendre ce qui vient, richesse ou pauvreté, louanges ou mépris. Cesser de distinguer entre vertu et vice, glorieux et honteux, bien et mal. Ne point s'affliger, se repentir, ou concevoir de regrets, quoi que l'on ait pu faire et, d'autre part, ne se féliciter ni se réjouir, ni s'enorgueillir de rien;
5° Contempler sans s'émouvoir, avec un esprit détaché, le conflit des opinions et les divers genres d'activité des êtres. Penser : "Telle est la nature des choses, la façon d'être des individualités différentes." Regarder le monde comme un un homme sur la plus haute montagne de la région regarde, au-dessous de lui, les vallées et les cimes de moindre élévation que la sienne;
6° La sixième étape ne peut pas se décrire, elle équivaut � la compréhension du vide (Note en bas de page : D'une façon générale on peut entendre ce "Vide" comme signifiant l'absence d'ego, suivant la formule tibétaine : "Les êtres animés sont dépourvus d'ego - toutes choses sont dépourvues d'ego".
Malgré ces sortes de "programmes", l'on s'efforcerait en vain d'établir une gradation régulière des multiples exercices éducatifs inventés par les "Pères du désert" tibétains. Dans la pratique, ces exercices se combinent et non seulement les maîtres mystiques ont chacun leur méthode particulière, mais il est rare que deux disciples du même maître soient dirigés dans la même voie.
Il nous faut prendre notre parti d'un chaos qui n'est en somme que la conséquence du chaos des tendances et des aptitudes individuelles que les partisans de la "Voie directe" se refusent � mater et � faire entrer, par force, dans un moule identique. Liberté, est la devise sur les hauts sommets du "Pays des Neiges", mais par un singulier paradoxe, les novices en font jamais l'apprentissage par la stricte obéissance � leurs guides spirituels. Toutefois, l'obéissance exigée ne concerne pas que les pratiques et la façon de vivre enjointe par le maître. Nulle doctrine n'est imposée, l'esprit du disciple reste toujours libre de croire, de nier, de douter, selon qu'il s'y sent porté.
J'ai entendu un lama dire que le rôle d'un maître de la "Voie directe" consiste, en premier lieu, � diriger un défrichement. Il doit inciter son élève � se débarasser des croyances, des idées, des habitudes acquises et des tendances innées, de tout de qui a crû dans son esprit par l'effet de causes dont l'origine se perd dans la nuit des temps.
Faute de pouvoir cataloguer avec ordre les divers exercices spirituels en usage parmi les disciples des anachorètes et aussi parce qu'il est impossible � qui que ce soit de les connaître tous, nous devrons nous contenter d'en considérer quelques-uns en tâchant de discerner nous-mêmes comment chacun d'eux tend au but final qui est "l'émancipation complète".

And :

Mais le lama sembla deviner ma pensée. Sans me laisser le temps de dire un mot, il reprit en élevant légèrement sa voix :
- Vous paraissez insinuer que vous êtes familiarisée avec le "Sentier Direct". Votre guide spirituel ne vous a-t-il pas informé du danger que l'on y courait et n'avez-vous pas accepté ces trois risques : maladie, folie ou mort ?...
"Il est difficile, continua-t-il, de se libérer complètement de l'illusion, d'effacer le mirage du monde imaginaire et d'affranchir son esprit des croyances chimériques. La connaissance directe (Yangdag paï ltaba, littéralement "vue juste") est un précieux joyau et doit être payée un haut prix.

(chapter IV)

Tibetans resume [spiritual work] in three words which indicate the steps :
Tawa : look, examine;
Gompa : think, méditate;
Tchyeupa : which is the consomation and the fruit of the two precedent practices.
Another way of saying that, less frequent, repeat the same idea with slightly different words :
Teune : search the signification, the reason of the things to be;
Lab : study theses things in detail;
Gom : think, meditate on what whe have discovered
Togs : understand.

As we can "fall" by following 'misguided' ways (i.e. with practicing AP), can we fall of 4th way ?

your preconceived notions i.e. AP is good and should be attempted?

I've well understood, for a long time, that effects of AP are very different according to every person. I do not recommend AP, I only kept the idea that it could be helpful in some cases and situations, because I think it enriched my development. And this topic made me rethink that thought (that it could really be as helpful as I thought, because of the too subjective nature of AP, perhaps).

 

[anart]

I do not recommend AP

Pardon? Four pages into this thread and you honestly think you can say this?

I only kept the idea that it could be helpful in some cases and situations, because I think it enriched my development. And this topic made me rethink that thought (that it could really be as helpful as I thought, because of the too subjective nature of AP, perhaps).

If - and I say IF - you are sincere when you say it 'made me rethink that thought' - then it is time to explain how it made you rethink it.

 

[Jsf]

Pardon? Four pages into this thread and you honestly think you can say this?

I was a bit the "devils advocate" as I said. 4 pages because of discussions, not personnal propaganda of AP I hope :)
So I do not recommend AP but would not recommend be ignorant of the existence and characteristics of this phenomena.
AP gave me a shock : I said to myself : ok, now I understand better why there is so much discussions about the matrix. I must seriously think of it and of all the implications.

If - and I say IF - you are sincere when you say it 'made me rethink that thought' - then it is time to explain how it made you rethink it.

Few last days I rethought on the time I passed studying, reading, ... OBE-related books. OBE had been a personal "base", that had lead me to many other subjects. I think I have now finished with this phenomena. It's like passions. Great interest at the beginning, and "inhaling" the essence of the topic until there is nothing else that keeps my attention alive. I've always been functioning like that.

 

[Ryan]

I was very much into "Astral Projection" at one stage during my teenage years, and can honestly say that for me it was another form of escapism. I wasn't trying to learn about being a better person, I was just trying to dissociate via "mystical experiences" because I wasn't very happy where I was. I also had notions of trying to use such abilities for getting an "advantage" over others.

I found a lot of the AP literature (eg. Muldoon and Munroe's stuff) to be contradictory and incoherent. For instance, I couldn't even work out a practical, single methodology for projecting because some methods focus on visualisation, while other methods focus on body sensation or feeling. Some advise extreme, focused concentration, others advise a kind of hypnotic/hypnagogic style trance. The whole AP thing seemed to me to be highly subjective. According to one book I read, AP was described as being not very different to daydreaming, while another described it as competely vivid and "virtual reality"-esque. Another perspective claimed that astral projection was just a different term for remote viewing, and the experience was the same.

Overall, AP delivered no real attitude-changing results for me. Although I experienced some interesting states, it didn't give me any sense of self, or help me deal with my problems in day-to-day life. This is like chalk and cheese compared to the 4th Way - it is something that helps you truly change yourself from a mechanical, reactionary sleepwalker into someone with more awareness, consciousness and empathy. It helps one to live "in the world", not to look towards other realms for "salvation from waking life".

You can try and fit AP and the 4th Way together all you like, but they are not the same, nor do they lead in the same direction. That is in my experience, anyway.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Also, you don't need experiences to prove something is possible in order to be "prompted" to seek truth - as is clear from the billions of people who have "spiritual experiences" and are asleep. This is clear evidence that the drive to seek truth does not have a tendency to follow after spiritual phenomena/experiences, and if anything, unless that drive is already there and you are firmly on that path BEFORE any such experience, then any such experiences (again as evidenced by the majority of mankind) will put you into a deeper state of sleep and do more harm than good. Yes there may be that rare exception, but let's call an apple an apple - a rare exception is a rare exception, and for all you know, that rare exception was already in a state of "spiritual bankruptcy" or turning towards seeking truth as it is, and the universe deemed it helpful to offer a spiritual experience only BECAUSE that person was in exactly the state of mind where he can benefit. So using a possibly rare exception for whom a spiritual experience was exactly what he needed according to all the details that only the universe is privy to, and trying to apply it to everyone when clearly the evidence for the vast majority is directly the opposite, is a very dangerous game.

Consider when you were a kid and discovered things for the first time like seeing an airplane fly by - things you could not even fathom were possible before, and seeing a giant metal thing fly is certainly up there (no pun intended), you could think that would open your eyes to infinite possibilities right there and then but no - everyone has that experience at one point or another among millions of other equally jaw-dropping discoveries whether they be technological/scientific or otherwise, but none of it makes people suddenly wake up, none of it made humanity progress internally and grow and this should already be reason to pause and think. 1000 years from now we may have wormholes and hyperdimensional technologies and that too will wow and amaze us, we might have technology to detect "souls" and FRV and access millions of "spiritual" realities and dimensions and other "amazing" things. But if you think that this will make people suddenly want to seek truth and learn life's lessons any more than they do now, that's wishful thinking at best with plenty of evidence to the contrary.

You said that maybe AP will make people take Laura's writings more seriously? Actually, this is not true for yet another reason. How are those people who practice AP going to tell Laura's writings apart from some random new ager who channels and writes about dimensions and other realities as well? If all they are armed with is their AP experience, they are in hot water. The lies are rampant and everywhere, all talking about dimensions and space brothers and millions of other spacey-spiritual junk. Finding a needle of truth among a haystack of bullshit requires a proper predisposition, requires a drive for truth - and if you have that drive, you're all set. If you don't, chances are, a spiritual experience will not create it, and only lead you into a deeper lala-land. An experience that does have a higher success rate to help people wake up is a total spiritual bankrupcy, which is not a feel-good "wow" super-power experience but the direct opposite, it's a sudden and painful realization of just how powerless and lost you truly are, that you are surrounded by lies and liars and that you know nothing and are nothing. Only after truly realizing this and truly truly with utmost sincerity desiring to know just what the truth is, do you get anywhere. And usually it is NOT any sort of spiritual experience, far from it - what the universe offers is something very much 3d because at that point you do not want a light show or magical spiritual experience to awe and amaze yourself, you are earning for just a way out of this confusion and mess you found yourself in, you want to UNDERSTAND and to somehow get your bearings, put your feet on the ground without them wobbling and you falling over. Before that you always rode a bus and could not walk - but someone else has always driven the bus, you were only a passenger. The same is true for any and all spiritual experiences and their usefulness to your progress and learning to walk - perhaps they are like being a baby who is a passenger in a jet plane. But you still cannot walk, when the plane lands you go back on the bus - or you'll fall. But learning to walk all by yourself and be able to stand on your own 2 feet will make you a billion times happier than getting a ride in a jet plane and then realizing you still cannot walk. At best it's a distraction from learning to walk, at worst, it'll make you think you are walking and flying already. And many babies think exactly that when you pick them up and "fly" them around a room!

Or another analogy is a bird. It can fly, all by itself too, but it's still a bird with a bird brain! A monkey with a TV is still a monkey.

 

[wilecoyote]

According to Laura, " There is a counter intelligence program for everyone out there, regardless of their thinking and backgrounds, to vector their beliefs" .
Astral Projection is one of them. Some folks get so caught up with trying to 'project' that it becomes an obsession. Robert Bruce and Robert Monroe were just maybe gifted or talented with their abilities. Some seekers are more inclined to such 'experience', while others seek the overwhelming surge of emotion when the 'holy ghost' passes by. Others chew peyote, and others ingest lsd, or DMT.

When the question "What does AP do to help others, how can it help oneself and others escape the matrix of this reality" or something to that extent was posed, a light switched on (figuratively) in my head. The experiences are too subjective and can't be cross examined. I use some of the monroe hemi-sync cd's just for relaxation purposed. They don't have the effect on me that many people purport to have. Some of the soundscapes zones one out, but these are subjective experiences. When i was younger, i used meditation cds n such to 'escape'. Kinda like daydreaming. My job was dead-end, monotonous. Had i know about suffering and how it could be used to one's advantage, i would have learnt my lesson.

Astral projection, remote viewing and the like, are those cointel programmes used to vector our thinkin, or distract us. It's used to get ppl who have the daydreaming tendency, or those seeking to escape their reality. Astral projection etc have their place, but when it comes to real 'work', they pale in comparison, and as someone previously mentioned, can interfere with serious work on the self, because one gets so caught up in their own 'rose-tinted' view of the world, and be oblivious to objective reality. OSIT.

 

[Jsf]

and as someone previously mentioned, can interfere with serious work on the self, because one gets so caught up in their own 'rose-tinted' view of the world, and be oblivious to objective reality.

So far, AP hadn't gave me a "rose-tinted" view of reality. But I've perhaps misunderstood you.

Some folks get so caught up with trying to 'project' that it becomes an obsession.

+1. It can become obsessional if one is not gifted, yes. But everything can become obsessional, see by exemple UFO researchers who restrict themselves only to this topic...

 

[Alana]

It can become obsessional if one is not gifted

Are you implying that you are "gifted"? So far in the 5 pages you exhibited no other "gift" than an obsession with AP and now a fat self-importance Jsf. Oh yes, and the "gift" of ignorance.

In my humble "opinion", this should be moved to the Tell us of you Special Gifts thread... of another forum.

 

[Jsf]

Are you implying that you are "gifted"?

Not at all ! On the contrary, I am not at all. I was a bit obsessed with AP because the last months I did not get many experiments.

this should be moved to the Tell us of you Special Gifts thread... of another forum.

 

[Nienna]

There have been 5 pages worth of information given to jsf about why astral projection is not a worthwhile venture. It distracts and detracts from the Work, for one thing. And if by chance someone is trying it as a shortcut to ascension, or the like, they will be sorely disappointed.

If the energy that has been put into this thread were put into a worthy pursuit of the Work, quite a lot could have been accomplished.

All of the people here have been trying to show jsf how astral projection is a waste of time to someone who is trying to do the Work. So either jsf is NOT interested in the Work, is just producing noise or has an agenda, known or unknown to himself. Or so it looks to me.

Still, after 5 pages, jsf is still being defensive and keeping this thread rolling along, as if this were the only thing that matters; and doesn't seem to understand what has been said.