Association of shamanism and reptilian themes

[twiggles]

I recently read a book I received by chance a number of years ago, and it had something I thought I should share. The book is entitled The Teachings of Don Juan: a Yaqui way of knowledge, by Carlos Castaneda. It documents Castaneda's experience of being mentored by a shaman in the early 60's.
In one section of the book, he describes Don Juan(the shaman) undertaking a ritual involving lizards:

" We returned to his room where there were still two little sacks he had not touched. He opened one, slid his hand inside, and wrinkled the open end around his wrist with his other hand. He seemed to be holding something, judging by the way his hand moved inside the bag. Suddenly, with a swift movement, he peeled the bag off his hand like a glove, turning it inside out, and shoved his hand close to my face. He was holding a lizard. Its head was a few inches from my eyes. There was something strange about the lizard's mouth. I gazed at it a moment, and then recoiled involuntarily. The lizard's mouth was sewn up with rude stitches. Don Juan ordered me to hold the lizard in my left hand. I clutched it; it wriggled against my palm. I felt nauseated, my hands began to perspire.
He took the last bag, and, repeating the same motions, he extracted another lizard. I saw its eyelids were sewn together. He ordered me to hold this lizard in my right hand...

...Don Juan waited awhile and then, going through the same motions, handed me the lizards again. He told me to hold their heads up and rub them against my temples, as I asked them anything I wanted to know." Pages 108-110

He goes on to describe how the ritual involved spreading a paste containing datura(a psychedelic plant) onto his temples, and practicing divination by asking the lizards various things(which seems to work, as he receives a vague answer later in the book).
I thought I should mention this, because I remember reading a transcription where the Cassiopaean's mentioned that shamanism was closely involved with the reptilians(I don't have a copy on the transcripts at the moment, maybe someone could find the one in question). Any thoughts on this?

 

[Jacques]

Welcome to the forum twiggles.

Don Juan is a well known character for the members of this forum.

If you use the search function for "Don Juan", the system will give you a lot of posts.

And at the same time, it is the best way to know if the subject has already been spoken.

 

[JonnyRadar]

hi twiggles,

is this what you were thinking of?

Q: (L) According to shamanistic teachings, one can have
animal spirits or guides. Is this correct?
A: Partly. You have them if you believe you have them.
Q: (L) If believing in them makes it so, is this belief beneficial?
A: All belief is beneficial at some level.
Q: (L) Did Jesus of Nazareth believe in animal spirits or
totems?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is it just New Age revival of superstition?
A: Shamanism is subjective and limits. Lizard inspired.

i think, in specific reference to your citation of don juan and his use of lizards, that one would benefit from first asking themselves why they wanted to practice divination, when the future does not seem to be set, it seems instead to be rather open.

fwiw, from a certain point of view (perhaps not don juan's), rubbing lizards on your face while taking hallucinogenic drugs in order to see the future seems kind of silly... there's got to be easier and less slimey ways to do that if one were inclined to practice divination in the first place... my point being, when we have a hard enough time staying aware of the present moment as well as our own selves, bringing ritual to gain knowledge of the future into the picture seems like it could be a bit detrimental...

 

[twiggles]

Thank you for the replies. I made the connection and thought I would mention it, as it was quite interesting that I got the book referenced in the first place(it came to me really, when it was right up my alley). My own thoughts regarding shamanism in general were that there seemed to be something to it, but it was misguided and bizarre, which seems to mirror what the C's said.

 

[mkrnhr]

hmmm maybe the lesson wasn't how to make divination but the fact that divination (seeking frozen responses about an unfrozen future) was a part of submission to lizards logic (linear thought). Just a guess.

 

[Ellipse]

When I read the C's sentence I made the same connection as you twiggles.

However this kind of ritual only appear in the beginning. Like if Castaneda was interacting with a "traditional" shaman. Next books are ahead from this. Nevertheless the C's sentence was a revelation to me.

I think that another point of connection is Don Juan saying he descended from the Toltecs.

Yesterday evening I was reading a remark of Laura in session 951014

Sure, they are the ones that leave people wounded, so these kinds of things can happen, you know, like going up to somebody and cutting them open with a knife, and then sprinkling dirt and bacteria on it so they can get infected. They do it to the soul level ...

and I think it's apply very well to the prupose of Castaneda work (I was a fan and I have always a lot of questions).

 

[Pierre]

hi twiggles,

is this what you were thinking of?

Q: (L) According to shamanistic teachings, one can have
animal spirits or guides. Is this correct?
A: Partly. You have them if you believe you have them.
Q: (L) If believing in them makes it so, is this belief beneficial?
A: All belief is beneficial at some level.
Q: (L) Did Jesus of Nazareth believe in animal spirits or
totems?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is it just New Age revival of superstition?
A: Shamanism is subjective and limits. Lizard inspired.

i think, in specific reference to your citation of don juan and his use of lizards, that one would benefit from first asking themselves why they wanted to practice divination, when the future does not seem to be set, it seems instead to be rather open.

I'm wondering if this applies to modern shamanism and also to ancient shamanism. here is an extract of The Wave volume II :

Nevertheless, over and over again we find this concept expressed in the most archaic shamanic practices: "healing by extraction of the magical object that has brought on the sickness and the search for the soul abducted by evil spirits." Or "[they] attribute sickness to an object introduced into the body by a god or a spirit, or to possession. And treatment consists in extracting the magical object or expelling the spirit. Eliade writes:

Only the shaman can undertake a cure of this kind. For only he 'sees' the spirits and knows how to exorcise them; only he recognizes that the soul has fled, and is able to overtake it, in ecstasy, and return it to its body.

...Everything that concerns the soul and its adventure, here on earth and in the beyond, is the exclusive province of the shaman. Through his own preinitiatory and initiatory experiences, he knows the drama of the human soul, its instability, its precariousness; in addition, he knows the forces that threaten it and the regions to which it can be carried away. If shamanic cure involves ecstasy, it is precisely because illness is regarded as a corruption or alienation of the soul.

...The struggle against the evil spirits is dangerous and finally exhausts the shaman. "We are all destined to fall before the power of the spirits, " the shaman Tusput told Sieroszewski, "the spirits hate us because we defend men..." And in fact, in order to extract the evil spirits from the patient, the shaman is often obliged to take them into his own body; in doing so, he struggles and suffers more than the patient himself.

...Aside from the rare cases of "infernal specialization" (confined to descents to the underworld), the Siberian shamans are equally capable of celestial ascents and descents to the nether regions. ...This twofold technique derives in a manner from their initiation itself; for the initiatory dreams of future shamans include both descents (=ritual sufferings and death) and ascents (=resurrection). In this context we can understand that, after battling the evil spirits or descending to the underworld to recover the patient's soul, the shaman feels the need to reestablish his own spiritual equilibrium by repeating the ascent to the sky.

...The shaman's power and prestige derive exclusively from his capacity for ecstasy. It is to his mystical capacities that the shaman owes his ability to discover and combat the evil spirits that have seized the patient's soul; he does not donfine himself to exorcising them, he takes them into his own body, "possesses" them, tortures and expels them.

[...Shamanism today has deteriorated and lost its focus]. ...we observe a certain "decadence of shamanism, a condition attested almost everywhere. The Tungus compare especially the strength and courage of the "old shamans" with the cowardice of shamans today, who in some districts no longer dare to undertake the dangerous journey to the underworld."