a good book

A

Albertina

Guest
Don't miss it !

Hidden Truth Forbidden Knowledge

by Dr. Steven Greer

obtainable from his website or amazon.com
 
Here is the pitch for the book :

In one of the most astounding and moving true stories ever told, Dr. Greer relates his own personal experiences with Extraterrestrial peoples and the unfolding of cosmic awareness since his childhood. From his sighting of a UFO at an early age, to his amazing near-death experience at age 17, to his unraveling of the secret cabal running the illegal transnational energy and UFO – related projects, to his meetings with a CIA Director, US Senators, heads of state and royalty – you will be moved, shocked and enlightened as you read through this memoir.

Journey with Dr. Greer as he takes you into the corridors of secret power – beyond the government as we know it- to a shadowy cabal of power-mad controllers. Learn what their agenda is, and how they plan to achieve their goals- and what we must do NOW to change the course of human history.

You will learn the secrets of how ET civilizations communicate – and travel- across the vastness of space, and you will explore the nexus where Mind, Space, Time and Matter all come together. Travel with Dr. Greer as he takes you on expeditions around the world where the famous CSETI Contact events have occurred – with ET craft and people actually approaching these new ambassadors to the universe.

You will be amazed as you glimpse the coming future of Earth and humanity – a future of universal peace, travel among the stars and the establishment of a sustainable civilization on Earth using long-suppressed and wondrous new energy sources.

And you will see a new world, within yourself, as you experience the meditations within this book that unfold a new cosmology – integrating body, mind, spirit and cosmic awareness and traveling beyond the speed of light – seeing that the Universe is folded perfectly within...
Sorry Albertina but this sounds like another book telling us how our good alien friends are going to help us (before eating us).
 
Tigersoap said:
Here is the pitch for the book :

In one of the most astounding and moving true stories ever told, Dr. Greer relates his own personal experiences with Extraterrestrial peoples and the unfolding of cosmic awareness since his childhood. From his sighting of a UFO at an early age, to his amazing near-death experience at age 17, to his unraveling of the secret cabal running the illegal transnational energy and UFO - related projects, to his meetings with a CIA Director, US Senators, heads of state and royalty - you will be moved, shocked and enlightened as you read through this memoir.

Journey with Dr. Greer as he takes you into the corridors of secret power - beyond the government as we know it- to a shadowy cabal of power-mad controllers. Learn what their agenda is, and how they plan to achieve their goals- and what we must do NOW to change the course of human history.

You will learn the secrets of how ET civilizations communicate - and travel- across the vastness of space, and you will explore the nexus where Mind, Space, Time and Matter all come together. Travel with Dr. Greer as he takes you on expeditions around the world where the famous CSETI Contact events have occurred - with ET craft and people actually approaching these new ambassadors to the universe.

You will be amazed as you glimpse the coming future of Earth and humanity - a future of universal peace, travel among the stars and the establishment of a sustainable civilization on Earth using long-suppressed and wondrous new energy sources.

And you will see a new world, within yourself, as you experience the meditations within this book that unfold a new cosmology - integrating body, mind, spirit and cosmic awareness and traveling beyond the speed of light - seeing that the Universe is folded perfectly within...
Sorry Albertina but this sounds like another book telling us how our good alien friends are going to help us (before eating us).
Are you choosing ignorance via pre-judgment?

Do you understand your own rationalization process?

This book might be a waste of time, and then again it might not. In the one single sentence you wrote in your response, you've made FOUR whopping assumptions, without qualifying them as such.

And considering the nature of your assumptions, one would think that you'd want to read anything with information, whether disinfo or not (for BOTH those reasons), about the subject.
 
Azur said:
Do you understand your own rationalization process?
And do you? Did you use the search function for Greer, here on the Forum and on the Web? There is no excuse nowadays for being ignorant.

Check:

http://www.glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=749&lsel=T

laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-to-spot-cointelpro-agents.html

Research. Then talk about "rationalization process".
 
Years ago I was researching a group calling themselves "Arcturus" that was working on selective arrangement of societal culture, values, thought and behavior.
The guy running this group is named Jim Channon, ( "retired" military intelligence) and he's linked to Dr. Greer. The Arcturus group calls what they do "social architecture" and this is being used to create a new social reality peopled by a new class of humans.

As I looked into it deeper, Greer's name kept coming up, sandwiched between the names of people tied to the Aviary/ military intelligence.

Arcturus is just one group out there that have been working on this kind of "experiment".
The group is based, according to their website, in Hawaii. Channon has trained "psychic warriors" for the U.S. Army. The group combines modern technological advances with "tribal ritual and medieval pageantry".

The objective is to create a new human culture with pre-selected "values" programmed right into us
The group claims it is involved in "designing a new class of human" and a purposefully constructed global culture.
They're creating a new civilization of people using the latest advances in technology, then combining them with visual and audial stimulation (much like has already been done with TV, radio, music, etc..) to directly control the thinking/behavior of the masses. They use full spectrum intelligence to condition human beings in order to map the social system.

From the article I wrote on this:

"One of the tools being used is language. They've designed a "language" that will be utilized by the inhabitants of custom crafted "social communities" specifically conceived, designed, and built for the purpose of "consciously acquiring new thinking" which will be a necessity in the upcoming world scenario being set in motion by the powers-that-be."

"The object is to achieve a singular mindset amongst groups of people - whether they are the employees of a business or an entire populace of a country - that is more consistent with New World Order philosophy, thereby creating an allegedly more 'loving' culture. "

The supposed logic behind Arcturus' "innovative" solutions is this: their "experiments" seek to do away with multiple influences over individuals and groups alike. They intend to shape the thoughts and values of human beings in such a way as to create "appropriate" thinking and behavior.

Leaders of foreign nations, non-governmental organizations, governments, large corporations, and even universities are lining up for these services.

Their clients included in 2003:
- Kodak
- Dupont
- AT&T
- General Motors
- U. S. Sprint
- Cotton, Inc.
- U. S. Army Corps of Engineers
- Apple computers
- General Electric
- Honeywell
- Sun Micro-Systems
- Federal Express
- U. S. Army Training and Doctrine Command
- Whirlpool Corporation
- Royal Dutch Shell
- Lufthansa-Sky chefs
- The Dallas Cowboys
- National Training Center
- U. S. Army
- Turner Broadcasting System
- Reuters
- Capitol One
- Datahub
- Aspen Township
- America One
- World Bank
- Lahaina Restoration Foundation

They claimed the ability/technology to program thoughts, whether individuals, small groups or populations.
Greer was tied to the "leader" of this Arcturus group and others in military intelligence.
I once tried to interview him, but he never came on the show.

The social architects are involved with modifying and expanding "states of being" and can direct them at will using both internal and external stimuli to obtain the desired result, which is to 'purpose the culture' in an 'appropriate' way. These architects coach heads of corporations and governments to enable these leaders to better control the human experience of those in subservience to them. In other words, this company uses a full arsenal of secret Black Operations tools to "service the human condition". Communities of people are referred to as "social experiments". Some of the "tools" Arcturus uses are directly applied to a person's brain waves. Tools like electromagnetic spectrum and microwave radiation.

These are the kind of people linked to Dr. Greer.

The company web site also states that "nations are obsolete." Our intended evolution means we won't need them any more. We are entering into a number of new realities (says Arcturus) that will differ radically from all that we now know. Furthermore, the company believes that, eventually, nations and nation-states will give way to "hemispheres" and "nodes" - clusters of people in what purport to be new versions of communities in which all members have had this special "conditioning" applied to alter their behavior and thinking.
Does this sound just a tad New-World-Order-ish to anybody here?

They've been blueprinting the schematics for a more "evolved" version of the human being, while catering to big business and governments around the world.

They are calling this coming evolution the Second Renaissance.
In 2003, their website ~ arcturus(dot)org ~ was loaded with spyware/tracking devices.

Incidentally, Jim Channon calls himself a social experiment, according to his bio on their website.


So much for Stephen Greer. Talk about a person with some creepy friends.
 
Azur, that's the beauty of learning through this forum! Sentences like the one highlighted begin to stand out like BIG RED FLAGS :)
 
ark said:
Azur said:
Do you understand your own rationalization process?
And do you?
I'm endeavouring to make sure that I do. Whether I am or not, objectively, is an ongoing process that I *try* not to kid myself about. It's why I network here and other (places/groups) on the Net and in personal contacts. I'll adresss why I made such a bold statement here of all places (a rare crucible on the net), at the end of this post.


ark said:
Did you use the search function for Greer, here on the Forum and on the Web? There is no excuse nowadays for being ignorant.

Check:

http://www.glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=749&lsel=T

laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-to-spot-cointelpro-agents.html
No excuse to be ignorant is right with many ressources available, if one chooses to look. In believing any resource is conclusive, is another problem. Something to be mindful of, in any undertaking. The above two references are excellent for corroboration for those keepings scores of particular actors.


ark said:
Research. Then talk about "rationalization process".
Agreed. And this is where the rub is. After reading Tigersoap's response (and my response to it), I should have provided the above links via searching of what can be found here and outside. Tigersoap might have done the same thing, but chose (?) not to.

The thing that got me to respond the way I did, was this: I smelled a little bit of "group" think in the response by Tigersoap. My response was not a directed malevolence towards him/her, only that to dismiss a "book", information source, to dispatch it so readily, stunk to my nose. Everything taught here, whether original or retransmitted, and things written/taught elsewhere specifically mention the pitfalls of accepting others' perception as your own. It may very well be that Tigersoap had already come across those links, or other information leading to the same conclusion, but the conclusions and how they were arrived at, weren't presented.


The very thing *I* was admonished for (correctly I may add), is the thing that guards against what I was originally worried about and addressing: group think.

Networking at work. Thanks for the poke, Ark. It made me triple check everything, and it is appreciated.
 
Lisa said:
Years ago I was researching a group calling themselves "Arcturus" that was working on selective arrangement of societal culture, values, thought and behavior.
The guy running this group is named Jim Channon, ( "retired" military intelligence) and he's linked to Dr. Greer. The Arcturus group calls what they do "social architecture" and this is being used to create a new social reality peopled by a new class of humans.

As I looked into it deeper, Greer's name kept coming up, sandwiched between the names of people tied to the Aviary/ military intelligence.

Arcturus is just one group out there that have been working on this kind of "experiment".
The group is based, according to their website, in Hawaii. Channon has trained "psychic warriors" for the U.S. Army. The group combines modern technological advances with "tribal ritual and medieval pageantry".

The objective is to create a new human culture with pre-selected "values" programmed right into us
The group claims it is involved in "designing a new class of human" and a purposefully constructed global culture.
They're creating a new civilization of people using the latest advances in technology, then combining them with visual and audial stimulation (much like has already been done with TV, radio, music, etc..) to directly control the thinking/behavior of the masses. They use full spectrum intelligence to condition human beings in order to map the social system.

From the article I wrote on this:

"One of the tools being used is language. They've designed a "language" that will be utilized by the inhabitants of custom crafted "social communities" specifically conceived, designed, and built for the purpose of "consciously acquiring new thinking" which will be a necessity in the upcoming world scenario being set in motion by the powers-that-be."

"The object is to achieve a singular mindset amongst groups of people - whether they are the employees of a business or an entire populace of a country - that is more consistent with New World Order philosophy, thereby creating an allegedly more 'loving' culture. "

The supposed logic behind Arcturus' "innovative" solutions is this: their "experiments" seek to do away with multiple influences over individuals and groups alike. They intend to shape the thoughts and values of human beings in such a way as to create "appropriate" thinking and behavior.

Leaders of foreign nations, non-governmental organizations, governments, large corporations, and even universities are lining up for these services.

Their clients included in 2003:
- Kodak
- Dupont
- AT&T
- General Motors
- U. S. Sprint
- Cotton, Inc.
- U. S. Army Corps of Engineers
- Apple computers
- General Electric
- Honeywell
- Sun Micro-Systems
- Federal Express
- U. S. Army Training and Doctrine Command
- Whirlpool Corporation
- Royal Dutch Shell
- Lufthansa-Sky chefs
- The Dallas Cowboys
- National Training Center
- U. S. Army
- Turner Broadcasting System
- Reuters
- Capitol One
- Datahub
- Aspen Township
- America One
- World Bank
- Lahaina Restoration Foundation

They claimed the ability/technology to program thoughts, whether individuals, small groups or populations.
Greer was tied to the "leader" of this Arcturus group and others in military intelligence.
I once tried to interview him, but he never came on the show.

The social architects are involved with modifying and expanding "states of being" and can direct them at will using both internal and external stimuli to obtain the desired result, which is to 'purpose the culture' in an 'appropriate' way. These architects coach heads of corporations and governments to enable these leaders to better control the human experience of those in subservience to them. In other words, this company uses a full arsenal of secret Black Operations tools to "service the human condition". Communities of people are referred to as "social experiments". Some of the "tools" Arcturus uses are directly applied to a person's brain waves. Tools like electromagnetic spectrum and microwave radiation.

These are the kind of people linked to Dr. Greer.

The company web site also states that "nations are obsolete." Our intended evolution means we won't need them any more. We are entering into a number of new realities (says Arcturus) that will differ radically from all that we now know. Furthermore, the company believes that, eventually, nations and nation-states will give way to "hemispheres" and "nodes" - clusters of people in what purport to be new versions of communities in which all members have had this special "conditioning" applied to alter their behavior and thinking.
Does this sound just a tad New-World-Order-ish to anybody here?

They've been blueprinting the schematics for a more "evolved" version of the human being, while catering to big business and governments around the world.

They are calling this coming evolution the Second Renaissance.
In 2003, their website ~ arcturus(dot)org ~ was loaded with spyware/tracking devices.

Incidentally, Jim Channon calls himself a social experiment, according to his bio on their website.


So much for Stephen Greer. Talk about a person with some creepy friends.
Lisa,


Thank you for sharing this.

There's some chilling aspects of what you present, and some leads to follow up on.

I would agree that Greer's contacts (if, of course, valid) are pretty creepy. I only have a feeling about Greer, and collecting information wherever it may be found, your info is appreciated and noted.

Cheers.
 
azur said:
I smelled a little bit of "group" think
This is an interesting pejorative especially considering the concept of colinearity and true esotericism as described by Gurdjieff.

"We have approached the problems of esotericism.

"It was pointed out before when we spoke about the history of humanity that the life of humanity to which we belong is governed by forces proceeding from two different sources: first, planetary influences which act entirely mechanically and are received by the human masses as well as by individual people quite involuntarily and unconsciously; and then, influences proceeding from inner circles of humanity whose existence and significance the vast majority of people do not suspect any more than they suspect planetary influences.
Notice here that Gurdjieff has, apparently, related "planetary forces" to entropic forces which gives his phrase "food for the moon" an all new meaning.

"The humanity to which we belong, namely, the whole of historic and prehistoric humanity known to science and civilization, in reality constitutes only the outer circle of humanity, within which there are several other circles.

"So that we can imagine the whole of humanity, known as well as unknown to us, as consisting so to speak of several concentric circles.

"The inner circle is called the 'esoteric'; this circle consists of people who have attained the highest development possible for man, each one of whom possesses individuality in the fullest degree, that is to say, an indivisible 'I,' all forms of consciousness possible for man, full control over these states of consciousness, the whole of knowledge possible for man, and a free and independent will. They cannot perform actions opposed to their understanding or have an understanding which is not expressed by actions. At the same time there can be no discords among them, no differences of understanding. Therefore their activity is entirely co-ordinated and leads to one common aim without any kind of compulsion because it is based upon a common and identical understanding.

"The next circle is called the 'mesoteric,' that is to say, the middle. People who belong to this circle possess all the qualities possessed by the members of the esoteric circle with the sole difference that their knowledge is of a more theoretical character.' This refers, of course, to knowledge of a cosmic character. They know and understand many things which have not yet found expression in their actions. They know more than they do. But their understanding is precisely as exact as, and therefore precisely identical with, the understanding of the people of the esoteric circle. Between them there can be, no discord, there can be no misunderstanding. One understands in the way they all understand, and all understand in the way one understands. But as was said before, this understanding compared with the understanding of the esoteric circle is somewhat more theoretical.

"The third circle is called the 'exoteric,' that is, the outer, because it is the outer circle of the inner part of humanity. The people who belong to this circle possess much of that which belongs to people of the esoteric and mesoteric circles but their cosmic knowledge is of a more philosophical character, that is to say, it is more abstract than the knowledge of the mesoteric circle. A member of the mesoteric circle calculates, a member of the exoteric circle contemplates. Their understanding may not be expressed in actions. But there cannot be differences in understanding between them. What one understands all the others understand.

"In literature which acknowledges the existence of esotericism humanity is usually divided into two circles only and the 'exoteric circle' as opposed to the 'esoteric,' is called ordinary life. In reality, as we see, the 'exoteric circle' is something very far from us and very high. For ordinary man this is already 'esotericism.'

" 'The outer circle' is the circle of mechanical humanity to which we belong and which alone we know. The first sign of this circle is that among people who belong to it there is not and there cannot be a common understanding. Everybody understands in his own way and all differently. This circle is sometimes called the circle of the 'confusion of tongues,' that is, the circle in which each one speaks in his own particular language, where no one understands another and takes no trouble to be understood. In this circle mutual understanding between people is impossible excepting in rare exceptional moments or in matters having no great significance, and which are confined to the limits of the given being.

If people belonging to this circle become conscious of this general lack of understanding and acquire a desire to understand and to be understood, then it means they have an unconscious tendency towards the inner circle because mutual understanding begins only in the exoteric circle and is possible only there. But the consciousness of the lack of understanding usually comes to people in an altogether different form.

"So that the possibility for people to understand depends on the possibility of penetrating into the exoteric circle where understanding begins.
So again, the question is, why have situations been created where "group think" is named that, and exemplified as BAD, and the term has been created and spread as a pejorative, and has thus made people have knee jerk reactions to UNDERSTANDING and OBJECTIVITY in a group setting? What is it about this that terrifies "them"?

I think we know. Because, of course, they DO use real "group think" only it is not thinking, it is programming and a certain kind of pressure to conform. And the thing that is being conformed to is BABEL: the confusion of tongues.
 
Great piece of research and great write-up, Lisa. Thanks for posting it.

Lisa said:
Years ago I was researching a group calling themselves "Arcturus" that was working on selective arrangement of societal culture, values, thought and behavior.
The guy running this group is named Jim Channon, ( "retired" military intelligence) and he's linked to Dr. Greer. The Arcturus group calls what they do "social architecture" and this is being used to create a new social reality peopled by a new class of humans.
 
laura said:
So again, the question is, why have situations been created where "group think" is named that, and exemplified as BAD, and the term has been created and spread as a pejorative, and has thus made people have knee jerk reactions to UNDERSTANDING and OBJECTIVITY in a group setting? What is it about this that terrifies "them"?

I think we know. Because, of course, they DO use real "group think" only it is not thinking, it is programming and a certain kind of pressure to conform. And the thing that is being conformed to is BABEL: the confusion of tongues.
Attiributing poor decisions to 'group think' is very good disinformation. The term 'group think' is taught in business courses and used in the media to dismiss many of the worlds 'bad' decisions as occuring because of this phenomenon. If one accepts that Pearl Harbor, Truman's invasion of North Korea, Bay of Pigs, Vietnam War, Watergate and recent invasion of Iraq occuring becuase of a dysfunctional group dynamic then no one need question any further or need to learn objective understanding as discussed on this site.
 
Group thinkig ==> More is different:

Anderson, P.W., "More Is Different" in Science, 4 Aug. 1972 Vol. 177 No. 4047 [abridged- 375 words]- quantitative differences become qualitative ones




The reductionist hypothesis may still be a topic for controversy among philosophers, but among the great majority of active scientists I think it is accepted without question. The workings of our minds and bodies, and of all the animate or inanimate matter of which we have any detailed knowledge, are assumed to be controlled by the same set of fundamental laws, which except under certain extreme conditions we feel we know pretty well.

It seems inevitable to go on uncritically to what appears at first sight to be an obvious corollary of reductionism: that if everything obeys the same fundamental laws, then the only scientists who are studying anything really fundamental are those who are working on those laws. In practice, that amounts to some astrophysicists, some elementary particle physicists, some logicians and other mathematicians, and few others...

The main fallacy [of] the reductionist hypothesis [is that it] does not by any means imply a "constructionist" one: The ability to reduce everything to simple fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from those laws and reconstruct the universe. In fact, the more the elementary particle physicists tell us about the nature of the fundamental laws, the less relevance they seem to have to the very real problems of the rest of science, much less to those of society.

The constructionist hypothesis breaks down when confronted with the twin difficulties of scale and complexity. The behavior of large and complex aggregates of elementary particles, it turns out, is not to be understood in terms of a simple extrapolation of the properties of a few particles. Instead, at each level of complexity entirely new properties appear, and the understanding of the new behaviors requires research which I think is as fundamental in its nature as any other...[and will show] how the whole becomes not only more than the sum of but very different from the sum of the parts...

With increasing complication... we expect to encounter fascinating and very fundamental questions in fitting together less complicated pieces into a more complicated system and understanding the basically new types of behavior that can result... Quantitative differences become qualitative ones.
 
Laura said:
azur said:
I smelled a little bit of "group" think
This is an interesting pejorative especially considering the concept of colinearity and true esotericism as described by Gurdjieff.

"We have approached the problems of esotericism.

"It was pointed out before when we spoke about the history of humanity that the life of humanity to which we belong is governed by forces proceeding from two different sources: first, planetary influences which act entirely mechanically and are received by the human masses as well as by individual people quite involuntarily and unconsciously; and then, influences proceeding from inner circles of humanity whose existence and significance the vast majority of people do not suspect any more than they suspect planetary influences.
Notice here that Gurdjieff has, apparently, related "planetary forces" to entropic forces which gives his phrase "food for the moon" an all new meaning.

"The humanity to which we belong, namely, the whole of historic and prehistoric humanity known to science and civilization, in reality constitutes only the outer circle of humanity, within which there are several other circles.

"So that we can imagine the whole of humanity, known as well as unknown to us, as consisting so to speak of several concentric circles.

"The inner circle is called the 'esoteric'; this circle consists of people who have attained the highest development possible for man, each one of whom possesses individuality in the fullest degree, that is to say, an indivisible 'I,' all forms of consciousness possible for man, full control over these states of consciousness, the whole of knowledge possible for man, and a free and independent will. They cannot perform actions opposed to their understanding or have an understanding which is not expressed by actions. At the same time there can be no discords among them, no differences of understanding. Therefore their activity is entirely co-ordinated and leads to one common aim without any kind of compulsion because it is based upon a common and identical understanding.

"The next circle is called the 'mesoteric,' that is to say, the middle. People who belong to this circle possess all the qualities possessed by the members of the esoteric circle with the sole difference that their knowledge is of a more theoretical character.' This refers, of course, to knowledge of a cosmic character. They know and understand many things which have not yet found expression in their actions. They know more than they do. But their understanding is precisely as exact as, and therefore precisely identical with, the understanding of the people of the esoteric circle. Between them there can be, no discord, there can be no misunderstanding. One understands in the way they all understand, and all understand in the way one understands. But as was said before, this understanding compared with the understanding of the esoteric circle is somewhat more theoretical.

"The third circle is called the 'exoteric,' that is, the outer, because it is the outer circle of the inner part of humanity. The people who belong to this circle possess much of that which belongs to people of the esoteric and mesoteric circles but their cosmic knowledge is of a more philosophical character, that is to say, it is more abstract than the knowledge of the mesoteric circle. A member of the mesoteric circle calculates, a member of the exoteric circle contemplates. Their understanding may not be expressed in actions. But there cannot be differences in understanding between them. What one understands all the others understand.

"In literature which acknowledges the existence of esotericism humanity is usually divided into two circles only and the 'exoteric circle' as opposed to the 'esoteric,' is called ordinary life. In reality, as we see, the 'exoteric circle' is something very far from us and very high. For ordinary man this is already 'esotericism.'

" 'The outer circle' is the circle of mechanical humanity to which we belong and which alone we know. The first sign of this circle is that among people who belong to it there is not and there cannot be a common understanding. Everybody understands in his own way and all differently. This circle is sometimes called the circle of the 'confusion of tongues,' that is, the circle in which each one speaks in his own particular language, where no one understands another and takes no trouble to be understood. In this circle mutual understanding between people is impossible excepting in rare exceptional moments or in matters having no great significance, and which are confined to the limits of the given being.

If people belonging to this circle become conscious of this general lack of understanding and acquire a desire to understand and to be understood, then it means they have an unconscious tendency towards the inner circle because mutual understanding begins only in the exoteric circle and is possible only there. But the consciousness of the lack of understanding usually comes to people in an altogether different form.

"So that the possibility for people to understand depends on the possibility of penetrating into the exoteric circle where understanding begins.
So again, the question is, why have situations been created where "group think" is named that, and exemplified as BAD, and the term has been created and spread as a pejorative, and has thus made people have knee jerk reactions to UNDERSTANDING and OBJECTIVITY in a group setting? What is it about this that terrifies "them"?

I think we know. Because, of course, they DO use real "group think" only it is not thinking, it is programming and a certain kind of pressure to conform. And the thing that is being conformed to is BABEL: the confusion of tongues.
Laura,

I've been thinking about your response all day. In fact, it has had the effect of a shakeup.

Some things have become more clear to me since this morning, but I'd like to be clearer on what my original impetus was (or so I think it was).

In the context of what you provided by G. above, this is not at all what I meant by 'group' think. And you are right, I did use it pejoratively, but not for the reasons you provide above. The 'group' think concept I was holding in my mind when I wrote it was not coalescing independant, perfectly communicating, co-linear individuals with the same goals (i.e. the basis for this forum if I've understood anything at all here), but quite the opposite: self-forming groups of people who are looking for someone to lead them. What I really was trying to point out , it now seems, would bear a more accurate label than the one I used: mimicry. I'm not even sure if it applies to my original reason for posting anymore, the more I think about it. Apologies to Tigersoap for using you as a venue to display my sensitivities.

I'm certainly too sensitive to this problem as I see a lot of it in the World, and am concerned, as some people are (this forum and others), about the effects it is creating, and how it is being exploited to drive the herd over a cliff.

I'm gonna take stock of why it is I keep "knee-jerking" like I do, as you point out. It lacks empathy, and I think I'm exporting my internal battle to others. I'm gonna take a time out to sort this out.

Godspeed to all.
 
arkmod said:
Group thinkig ==> More is different:

Anderson, P.W., "More Is Different" in Science, 4 Aug. 1972 Vol. 177 No. 4047 [abridged- 375 words]- quantitative differences become qualitative ones




The reductionist hypothesis may still be a topic for controversy among philosophers, but among the great majority of active scientists I think it is accepted without question. The workings of our minds and bodies, and of all the animate or inanimate matter of which we have any detailed knowledge, are assumed to be controlled by the same set of fundamental laws, which except under certain extreme conditions we feel we know pretty well.

It seems inevitable to go on uncritically to what appears at first sight to be an obvious corollary of reductionism: that if everything obeys the same fundamental laws, then the only scientists who are studying anything really fundamental are those who are working on those laws. In practice, that amounts to some astrophysicists, some elementary particle physicists, some logicians and other mathematicians, and few others...

The main fallacy [of] the reductionist hypothesis [is that it] does not by any means imply a "constructionist" one: The ability to reduce everything to simple fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from those laws and reconstruct the universe. In fact, the more the elementary particle physicists tell us about the nature of the fundamental laws, the less relevance they seem to have to the very real problems of the rest of science, much less to those of society.

The constructionist hypothesis breaks down when confronted with the twin difficulties of scale and complexity. The behavior of large and complex aggregates of elementary particles, it turns out, is not to be understood in terms of a simple extrapolation of the properties of a few particles. Instead, at each level of complexity entirely new properties appear, and the understanding of the new behaviors requires research which I think is as fundamental in its nature as any other...[and will show] how the whole becomes not only more than the sum of but very different from the sum of the parts...

With increasing complication... we expect to encounter fascinating and very fundamental questions in fitting together less complicated pieces into a more complicated system and understanding the basically new types of behavior that can result... Quantitative differences become qualitative ones.
Ark,

This is excellent. It describes to a "T" surprising emergent behaviour in systems, be they virtual, social, etc.

It is one of my true hopes that emergent behaviour of Humanity cannot be fully modelled by anybody. Regardless of my wishful thinking, it may be the one crack in a control system that Humanity may slip through, should it choose to do so.

Cheers.
 
I don't mind now Azur but when I read the posts it disturbed me because I thought that it was clear enough and I did not get why you'd feel "attacked" by what I wrote.

I should have provided a link or a short explanation to why I thought this was just another alien savior book amongst others (the ad pop articles helped me understand this better even if it deals more with channeling).

I don't always think about that people might not agree with some concepts exposed in this forum and might think that such answers are automatic responses to "fit in".

In my understanding, t's not a forum to get your ego stroked by just agreeing with everything that is said.
On the contrary if you don't agree, put your thoughts to the test, like you did.

I really don't feel like I am just following a "leader", sure that I am less knowlegeable in a lot of areas and I need the help and experiences of others to understand ideas that are not easy to get grasps with.
In this regard, it would be insane to want to discover everything by yourself if it's available, that does not mean that you don't need to work to understand it.
You can know a subject without understanding it and I try to not voice myself in this case.

I am not forcing myself to accept some of the concepts here, it really comes from my understanding albeit incomplete.
It really helps to coalesce what I had only in pieces before.

I would not feel respectful to the forum and the works that goes behind the cass site to be following blindly what they're doing osit.

I did not want to justify myself but I kinda did it now :| :)
 
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