Experimental Fasting

[Ryan]

Hi All,

The beginning of the New Year always seems like an auspicious time to do some longer fasting, osit, before the needs of the year begin to require significant amounts of attention. There are lots of ways to fast: dry fasting, juice fasting, the Master Cleanse, water fasting etc. This year, I'm going to try something a little different - a supplement-based fast. I've read that the fillers for supplements can somewhat interrupt the cleansing process that takes place while the digestive system is having some "downtime", so I don't want to go too far with it, and am thinking about a daily intake of the following:

Morning:

- Glass of filtered water with 1 x level teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate + 1 x level teaspoon of Celtic Sea Salt.​

- 2,000 IU Vitamin D + K2.​

- 1000mg NAC.​

Afternoon:

- 1 x Vitamin B-Complex.​

- 3-6g of Vitamin C as ascorbic acid powder, topped with 1-2g of Liposomal Vitamin C.​

Evening:

- Glass of filtered water with 1 x heaped teaspoon of Magnesium Complex + 1 x level teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate.​

- 100mg 5-HTP and 10mg time-release Melatonin before bed.​

Filtered and sparkling mineral water throughout the day.

Intended duration: 7-14 days.

Any thoughts or suggestions regarding this?

 

[seek10]

Did any body do this protocol? If so, what is their feedback?

Are you doing HBOT? If so you want to consider few things. I feel tired after the HBOT session unless I take vitamins particularly vitamin C. The issue is all sorts of vitamins gets consumed in HBOT and we don't know which one needs replenished and which one is not. It takes some careful observation and experimentation I think.

Here is one article on what vitamins to take and what not.

Fasting Supplements: What Helps and What Hurts a Fast

Fasting supplements can be used to help reduce unwanted symptoms that many people experience when they begin a fasting lifestyle.

drjockers.com

 

[RedFox]

Not an expert, but I'll add a few things.
I assume you've done a fast this long (7-14 days) before, and are well adapted for ketosis? Because going in cold for that long could be a bad idea.
You may want to consider adding potassium, as that can get depleted quickly (due to the stress/raised adrenaline of the fast). This can cause cramping muscles.
Also, is their a specific reason for the 5-HTP? Having too much serotonin can cause serious issues - so keep an eye out for migraines, brain fog, and severe muscle cramps (signs of serotonin overload - quite dangerous). Given the overlap of these symptoms with those you may get on a long fast, it may be worth skipping this.

What's your aim? If your aim is to lose body fat, and your muscles are in good shape (high strength) it may work well.
For what it's worth what I have been doing is time restricted feeding. I've moved my eating window to mostly around mid-day. And for me that's something I've been doing for years now. You get the benefits of fasting without needing much will power, and without too much stress on the system. Skipping a few days of food is surprisingly easy for me now, if I want to do it.
I like to do my mid-day workout fasted too (lots of salt/potassium and water though). Eating before 3pm also really helps get great sleep.

I find Dr Berg and Thomas DeLauer on youtube have quite good recommendations on fasting/timings of meals.

Here's one of Thomas's latest videos (he goes quite deep on the science of fasting)

 

[RedFox]

I'll throw in two more considerations, so that you can consider/navigate potential issues.
Check out Elliot's videos on oxolate dumping and toxic weight (fat) loss:

 

[Altair]

Intended duration: 7-14 days.

Doing such a prolonged fasting will be quite a stress to your body. I would rather approach it gradually: for example, doing one meal a day first and only then if you feel comfortable with it. I would also recommend reading Complete Guide To Fasting: Heal Your Body Through Intermittent, Alternate-Day, and Extended Fasting by Jimmy Moore and Jason Fung first. They explain the procedure and all the details.

 

[Ryan]

Are you doing HBOT?

No, this protocol assumes no HBOT treatment.

Not an expert, but I'll add a few things.
I assume you've done a fast this long (7-14 days) before, and are well adapted for ketosis?

Yes, I've done a fast in excess of 30 days before and many 7, 10 and 14 day fasts. My current regular diet incorporates intermittent fasting.

You may want to consider adding potassium, as that can get depleted quickly (due to the stress/raised adrenaline of the fast). This can cause cramping muscles.

The magnesium complex that I take includes ~80mg potassium per serving, so this should be alright.

Also, is their a specific reason for the 5-HTP? Having too much serotonin can cause serious issues - so keep an eye out for migraines, brain fog, and severe muscle cramps (signs of serotonin overload - quite dangerous). Given the overlap of these symptoms with those you may get on a long fast, it may be worth skipping this.

Serotonin overload is normally caused by interactions with SSRIs. 5-HTP is just a precursor that makes it easier for the body to synthesise the levels of serotonin it needs naturally. I personally find it to be quite helpful, although that might just be my individual case.

What's your aim? If your aim is to lose body fat, and your muscles are in good shape (high strength) it may work well.

Primary aim is detoxification. I've found fasting is very good for reducing body fat, but you also tend to lose some muscle mass as well (mostly from glycogen stores), so in my experience the weight eventually goes back on unless you use the fast to emphasise an appropriate regular exercise schedule.

Thanks for the vids, I'll have a look at them.

Doing such a prolonged fasting will be quite a stress to your body. I would rather approach it gradually: for example, doing one meal a day first and only then if you feel comfortable with it.

See above. I probably should have specified that I've got some experience with this.

I would also recommend reading Complete Guide To Fasting: Heal Your Body Through Intermittent, Alternate-Day, and Extended Fasting by Jimmy Moore and Jason Fung first. They explain the procedure and all the details.

Thanks; aside from Stanley Burrough's The Master Cleanser, I've only read assorted web articles. I've downloaded the Kindle version and will read it.

Cheers guys!

 

[Ryan]

Fasting update: I'm now on day 8 of the fast, and in general, I feel absolutely fantastic. I don't think I've felt this good since the very first fasts I did. My mind feels clearer, I feel happier, and I've dropped a few kilos of weight and feel like I'm really giving my system a good clean out. Thanks again for the feedback everyone, and I'm finding Moore & Fung's book especially to be immensely helpful. It's cleared up a number of misconceptions I had around fasting and diet, the recent scientific studies are very interesting, and I now understand the process much better.

Key takeaways so far have been:

* "Eat less, move more" and calorie control doesn't work for long-term weight loss. Exercise is for maintaining and building muscle and strength, diet is for regulating body fat, weight and general health. One can't substitute one for the other.

* Main aspects to reducing body fat levels (and thus excreting lipophilic stored toxins) are decreasing insulin levels, increasing insulin sensitivity, and preferably staying in ketosis.

* Careful mineral and vitamin intake will not shift the body out of ketosis and still support detoxification.

* Short-duration intermittent fasting won't put the body into ketosis without a ketogenic diet.

* Fasting won't decrease muscle mass unless fat reserves are ridiculously low (less than body fat %s of marathon runners).

* Too much protein in the diet can boost insulin levels like carbohydrates, so fat needs to be the major macronutrient in meals.

* Five stages of metabolism:

​

* Blood sugar, insulin and blood pressure levels decrease and regulate during fasting.

* Electrolyte levels remain stable, norepinephrine (adrenaline) levels and basal metabolism increase during fasting.

* Human Growth Hormone levels increase massively even after one 1 day of fasting, and there's a whole body of work regarding fasted workouts to take advantage of this.

* No particular benefit to dry fasting.

* Hippocrates was a definite legend.

I've made some modifications to the protocol based on the feedback and observation. I've removed NAC because I feel the particular tablet form I was taking was counterproductive. Could be okay in a powdered form, but would need to experiment. I'm also toying with the idea of introducing liposomal Glutathione to replace the NAC. I've also added Activated Charcoal intake once every three days, beginning on day three. The idea is to prevent hepato-enteric recirculation of toxins that @Keyhole has mentioned, and increase the body's ability to excrete them.

I also found that not doing a saltwater flush in the first few days felt like I wasn't excreting properly, so I've added that in.

New version is:

Morning:
- Glass of filtered water with 1 x level teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate + 1 x level teaspoon of Celtic Sea Salt.
- Starting day 2, and then every few days as needed, change the above for a saltwater flush of 1L of water with 1-2 heaped teaspoons of Celtic Sea Salt.
- 2,000 IU Vitamin D + K2.

Afternoon:
- 1 x Vitamin B-Complex.
- 3-6g of Vitamin C as ascorbic acid powder, topped with 1-2g of Liposomal Vitamin C.
- Every three days, take two heaped teaspoons of Activated Charcoal in a large glass of filtered water, a few hours after the Vitamin C.

Evening:
- Glass of filtered water with 1 x heaped teaspoon of Magnesium Complex + 1 x level teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate.
- 100mg 5-HTP and 10mg time-release Melatonin before bed.

Filtered and sparkling mineral water throughout the day.

[Mods: Could you please move this thread to the "Diet and Health" public forum? It might be useful for others.]

 

[Carl]

Thanks for sharing Ryan, you've got me interested in trying this again (shorter duration though). I'm guessing you are not having coffee/tea or any caffeine at all as well?

 

[Steph_rivers]

I really like the detailed protocol for your daily routine.
I think I’d like to use this as a guide to a upcoming fast Im preparing for. A lot of great info.
The purpose of this is detoxification for me and just general awareness of observing a change.
I’ve been preparing by going into ketosis for a week and will fast for 2-5 days, depending on how the body can cope.

No HBOT in the meantime, and laying off the iodine during this. Great suggestion. Thanks for the post guys.

@Ryan did you end up going the 14 days?

 

[Ryan]

Thanks for sharing Ryan, you've got me interested in trying this again (shorter duration though). I'm guessing you are not having coffee/tea or any caffeine at all as well?

No, no stimulants of any kind, unless you count fizzy mineral water.

I really like the detailed protocol for your daily routine. [..]

@Ryan did you end up going the 14 days?

I've modified the protocol a little more. Here's my update.

I've completed the full 14 days, and have been experiencing such a general feeling of wellbeing throughout, that I decided to extend it by another 7 days. Given that those seven days are nearly up, I may even go another seven. Last Saturday, I helped a friend move house; no large or heavy items fortunately, and my energy levels were quite good and I think I benefited from the higher intensity of movement for the day.

Today makes it 18 days, nearly 19 at the time of this post. In the last two days I've noticed a little more tiredness and lethargy, and I think I've burned off a patch of fat that had a few stored toxins in it. Overall, the Vitamin C has provided a noticeable boost to my energy levels, and it feels like it's really helped the detoxification process. It will be an essential element of any future fasts I do.

My fluid intake levels dropped notably through the last week. Aside from the regular glasses of water in the protocol, I just didn't feel I needed it. I also stopped having the salt, because I figured the saltwater flushes would provide enough of that, although I've done less of those, too. I've also modified the frequency of the activated charcoal intake, and reduced the Sodium Bicarbonate and amount of Magnesium Complex in the evening to half a teaspoon, because the extra electrolytes were having a laxative effect. The new protocol is:

-------
Morning:
- Glass of filtered water with 1 x half teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate.
- Starting day 2, and then every few days as needed, a saltwater flush of 1L of water combined with 1-2 heaped teaspoons of Celtic Sea Salt.
- 2,000 IU Vitamin D + K2.

Afternoon:
- 1 x Vitamin B-Complex.
- 3-6g of Vitamin C as ascorbic acid powder, topped with 1-2g of Liposomal Vitamin C.
- Every few days as needed, take two heaped teaspoons of Activated Charcoal in a large glass of filtered water, a few hours after the Vitamin C.

Evening:
- Glass of filtered water with 1 x half teaspoon of Magnesium Complex + 1 x half teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate.
- 100mg 5-HTP and 10mg time-release Melatonin before bed.

Filtered and sparkling mineral water throughout the day.
-------

Unsurprisingly, I've lost quite a few kilograms weight-wise, and my waistline has noticeably decreased. I feel lighter and more flexible in general, and it will be interesting to see what happens when I reintroduce food at the end of the fast. Given what Moore & Fung say about the insulin levels, I'll start with carnivore/ketogenic foods and then observe as I increase the level of carbohydrates. Unfortunately, it's difficult to maintain a ketogenic diet during social events, but it seems that at 48 hr fast at most will be sufficient to reestablish ketosis, so that will be my go-to "diet fixer" from now on if I overindulge!

Another update next week!

 

[Ryan]

After 26 days of fasting, I'm now preparing to bring it to a close after day 28 (four full weeks). My energy levels have been good throughout, except for two days ago when I felt quite lethargic and fatigued, which was remedied by a large dose of Vitamin C and about 6 hrs extra sleep. Since then, I've bounced back to feeling great again, especially after some Eiru Eolas today. Just to add a final 'kick' to the detox before finishing, I'm going to have a preventative dose of Ivermectin as well, just to nuke any critters that may be hiding.

I have to admit I'm looking forward to breaking the fast, and I'm going to prepare a beef & bacon broth with herbs to gently re-accomodate my stomach to food. Some avocado and macadamia nuts might be good as a later entreé meal before having the actual beef and bacon. Although I planned to have some eggs, Moore & Fung in their book say that eggs are usually the food most people have digestive issues with immediately upon breaking a fast, so I might leave the eggs until at least a day after the beef and bacon.

It's been interesting to observe how much unnecessary extra weight I was carrying that I hadn't been paying attention to. With my waistline noticeably reduced, my breathing feels much lighter, and my torso feels less restricted as I move. And I probably have a thinner build for my height than most guys - I can really see now how the middle-age "spare tyre" creeps up on a lot of men.

Moore & Fung detail how fasting can be done essentially indefinitely; I found the following story fascinating:

Fasting has no upper limit. In the 1970s, a twenty-seven-year-old Scottish man started fasting at a weight of 456 pounds. Over the next 382 days, he subsisted on only noncaloric fluids, a daily multivitamin, and various supplements, setting the world record for the longest fast. A physician monitored him during the fasting period and determined that there were no significant deleterious health effects. His body weight decreased from 456 pounds to 180 pounds. Even five years after his fast, he remained at 196 pounds. His blood sugar level decreased but remained well within the normal range, and he had no episodes of hypoglycemia.

They make clear that fasting is actually a natural, flip side of the human diet. We are genetically designed to maintain our health through cycles of feast and fast, and our circadian hormonal rhythms adapt to conscious regulation of food availability. They point out that even the introduction of agriculture and the subsequent radical shift in much of humanity's diet didn't cause many of the chronic health conditions experienced by those following the standard western diet today, because periods of fasting were still a regular and accepted part of life, even to the point of incorporation into cultural and religious practises.

Here are their Top 9 Fasting Tips:

Top 9 Fasting Tips

1. Drink water: Start each morning with a full eight-ounce glass of water. It will help you start your day hydrated and set the tone for drinking plenty of fluids throughout the day.

2. Stay busy: It’ll keep your mind off food. Try fasting on a busy workday. You may be too busy to remember to be hungry.

3. Drink coffee: Coffee is a mild appetite suppressant. There’s also some evidence that green tea may suppress appetite. Black tea and homemade bone broth may also help control appetite.

4. Ride the waves: Hunger comes in waves; it is not constant. When it hits, slowly drink a glass of water or a hot cup of coffee. Often by the time you’ve finished, your hunger will have passed.

5. Don’t tell people you are fasting: Most people will try to discourage you simply because they don’t understand the benefits of fasting. A close-knit support group of people who are also fasting is often beneficial, but telling everybody you know is not a good idea.

6. Give yourself one month: It takes time for your body to get used to fasting. The first few times you fast will be difficult, so be prepared. Don’t be discouraged. It gets easier.

7. Follow a nutritious diet on nonfasting days: Intermittent fasting is not an excuse to eat whatever you like. During nonfasting days, stick to a nutritious diet low in sugar and refined carbohydrates. Following a low-carbohydrate diet that’s high in healthy fats can also help your body stay in fat-burning mode and make fasting easier.

8. Don’t binge: After your fast, pretend it never happened. Eat normally (and nutritiously—see #7), as if you had never fasted.

9. Fit fasting into your own life: This is the most important tip I can offer, and it has the greatest impact on whether you stick to your fasting regimen. Do not change your life to fit your fasting schedule—change your fasting schedule to fit your life. Don’t limit yourself socially because you’re fasting. There will be times during which it’s impossible to fast, such as vacations, holidays, and weddings. Do not try to force fasting into these celebrations. These occasions are times to relax and enjoy. Afterwards, you can simply increase your fasting to compensate. Or just resume your regular fasting schedule. Adjust your fasting schedule to what makes sense for your lifestyle.

I don't agree with their advocacy for coffee as a fasting aid, as I think coffee has drawbacks of its own (eg. here). Green tea is probably borderline in this regard as well, although some of the herbal teas like lemon, peppermint, cinnamon or ginger seem okay. I didn't use any of them this time during my fast because it's summer here in the southern hemisphere and I prefer cold drinks during summer. That being said, I find ginger tea to be a very nourishing cool weather drink.

Moore & Fung's book is packed with information and I highly recommend it. They bring a lot of historical overview and recent science to the practice of fasting. Plus, it also has some very tasty looking recipes at the end!

Perhaps, as they quote legendary author Mark Twain, “A little starvation can really do more for the average sick man than can the best medicines and the best doctors.”?

 

[brandon]

Cool! Very interesting and well done Ryan. The longest fast I've done so far was 7 days.. felt amazing. I often fast for a day, but it's been ages since I did a big long one.. must do it again!

Earlier in the thread you said there's no particular benefit to dry fasting.. I haven't researched it at all, but remember reading the opposite in the past, that dry fasting was best. I've forgotten whatever the details were. But that was something always in the back of my mind, "I should be dry fasting but that seems impossible"... I was drinking a lot of black tea, the times I tried longer fasts, but have recently switched entirely to green, and am attempting to transition to just rooibos (haven't really researched benefits/drawbacks of rooibos, I just like the taste and I think it's much lower in oxalates).. Anyway good to know I should probably just not worry and it's ok to drink while fasting!

 

[A Jay]

After 26 days of fasting, I'm now preparing to bring it to a close after day 28 (four full weeks). My energy levels have been good throughout, except for two days ago when I felt quite lethargic and fatigued, which was remedied by a large dose of Vitamin C and about 6 hrs extra sleep.

This is interesting because my sister did a long +30 day fast and she said she was fine until the 23 day mark or so when her mind became noticeably sluggish and her energy levels plummeted. I know she was taking a multivitamin but don't think she was doing any detox support or allowing for extra sleep so that may have been her issue. She lost a lot of weight (I think losing something like +30 lbs) but struggled with completing her course work by the end. I'll have to mention this stuff to her in case she decides to try it again at some point. The longest I've ever done was a 7 day fast so good for you in doing a full 4 weeks! And thanks for sharing your notes as it may come in handy at some point.

 

[Laura]

Before you break your fast, watch this!!!

His video about fasting:

 

[brandon]

Thanks for that Laura! I've only watched the first video so far. It was good! Here's a quick summary:

- The longer the fast, the more gradually it should be broken.

- He recommends reintroducing foods in this order:
1. Fat - MCT oils, butter/ghee, olive oil etc (start with just a teaspoon or two). Avocado. Possibly some nut butters, but the protein in these will interrupt autophagy.
2. Then fermented food like sauerkraut or yoghurt, sour cream.. to add beneficial bacteria.
3. Then something fibrous, to fuel the bacteria - eg steamed veggies, veg soup.
4. Then bone broth - he leaves it til this stage because it's higher in protein than the previous foods, interrupting autophagy (IF autophagy is a priority for you)
5. Then meat, eggs - for growth, giving the material for the body to build with.

- The time span he gives for this whole sequence is just a few hours - give it an hour or two between steps.

- Bonus info: Earl Gray tea contains bergamot oil which enhances autophagy during fasting.