Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

That would be the evolution of my perception, and obviously I have no respect for any one shilling for the vaccine, why would I?

Did you see that he recanted and realized he had been conned? Surely you allow for people being lied to and manipulated, as long as they realize it? Maybe you have a tendency to want your heroes (or people you admire) to be whiter than white, and according to your definition of that? If so, you're not gonna have any heroes, or people you admire.
 
Did you see that he recanted and realized he had been conned? Surely you allow for people being lied to and manipulated, as long as they realize it?

Especially if those people have significant issues which 'take them out' at just the right time so that they're not able to recognize what's going on immediately.

Peterson had been suffering significant mental issues due to benzo addiction at the start of COVID to the extent that he doesn't remember the first several months of 2020, and let's not forget the reason for the addiction which was an attempt to deal with the stress of helping his wife deal with kidney cancer.

Surely we can cut the man some slack considering his situation at the time, considering he's totally reversed his endorsement, and considering he never said that people should be vaccinated against their will, lose their jobs, or anything remotely close to what one could call dehumanizing of the unvaccinated.

Maybe you have a tendency to want your heroes (or people you admire) to be whiter than white, and according to your definition of that? If so, you're not gonna have any heroes, or people you admire.

Indeed. Not even God himself can live up to such a standard.
 
As for what he's thinking:

I think it would be very difficult for him to criticize Israel to any great capacity considering so many of his friends and allies are Jewish like Shapiro, Saad and Rubin. He has so many groups against him that if you add the Jewish population to it, which, as a whole is extremely powerful, hypersensitive to the slightest criticism and relentlessly go on the attack for any perceived threat, he'd be wiped out. I read that speech as him asking Israelis to be better than what they are and yes, in some sense appealing to their sense of 'specialness' as a reason to do so. But it will most likely fall on deaf ears and his understanding of geopolitics and the role Israel plays on the world stage and chaos in the Middle East probably leaves a lot to be desired.
 
The thing is, you can just say nothing and not associate with problematic people or institutions without being confrontational about it, to say nothing of not actively supporting it. People have been trying their best to warn Peterson in the past (see the video below).

Queen Elizabeth II, God rest her soul, in spite of having an extremely regimented life, never set foot in Israel, in spite of visiting many middle eastern and far asian countries said to "hostile" to the West.
 
People have been trying their best to warn Peterson in the past (see the video below).

The question of the Holodomor is a complicated subject on its own, with much nuance. Can't blame JP there for not engaging - especially to an open question from the floor like that. I also wonder, too, if JP would enjoy discussions with guys like Finkelstein and Atzmon. He well might, don't know.

Like Turgon mentions below, though, many of JP's friends are Jewish (even where he lives in Toronto is well represented). And moving into his talk on doing better then what they are, well that is so, and he is speaking to so many Jewish and non Jewish people in and outside Israel. It would be hard to know what he truly thinks, and the deep biblical aspects may color things.

I think it would be very difficult for him to criticize Israel to any great capacity considering so many of his friends and allies are Jewish like Shapiro, Saad and Rubin. He has so many groups against him that if you add the Jewish population to it, which, as a whole is extremely powerful, hypersensitive to the slightest criticism and relentlessly go on the attack for any perceived threat, he'd be wiped out. I read that speech as him asking Israelis to be better than what they are and yes, in some sense appealing to their sense of 'specialness' as a reason to do so. But it will most likely fall on deaf ears and his understanding of geopolitics and the role Israel plays on the world stage and chaos in the Middle East probably leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes, he may be deaf to geopolitics as he stumbles here and there, and who has not in life. As Finkelstein above mentions (differences between Israel/Palestine and Ukraine/Russia), is that he has watched Russia with "an eagle eye" these last months and he can't explain what is going on, and yet he also understands that Russia, unlike Israel, had rights (whether to exercise them was another matter, he said).

Agree on the question "hypersensitivity to the slightest criticism," and JP knows something about criticism, and a Jewish lobby, let alone a state, is a whole other level.
 
The question of the Holodomor is a complicated subject on its own, with much nuance. Can't blame JP there for not engaging - especially to an open question from the floor like that.

He did engage with the questioner's two questions, and to the last one he just said (in a sincere and pained tone) he couldn't answer, likely for the reasons Turgon mentioned. But his current associations go well beyond just keeping your mouth shut and practising strategic enclosure. He was so circumspect about it in the video, I have trouble understanding his reasoning for his current associations.

Peterson still has time to learn about Israel killing and oppressing Palestinians, though I'm not expecting he will.
Sadly, I think he does know. I'll share Jonathan Pageau's report of their time there again.

Our time in Jerusalem​

I just returned from Jerusalem with my family. We loved walking the narrow streets of Old Jerusalem and would wander through them until late in the evening. It was a wonderful experience visiting the Tomb of our Lord and all the Biblical places. I'd recommend it to anyone for getting perspective on the stories.

Jordan Peterson and I recorded a documentary for Daily Wire on the various Christian sites of Jerusalem. It was wild to be there with him and to enter the Holy Sepulcher. The buzz was palpable. Our visit coincided with Sukkot, or the feast of the Tabernacles, so plywood cabins with tents inside were set up all over town. We got lost one day in a very Orthodox Jewish neighborhood and found ourselves under severe stares which escalated in children spitting at us and cursing us.

The holidays in Israel are always a tense time. While Jordan and I were having a recorded discussion in a restaurant that overlooks Bethlehem, a Palestinian threw a rock at a police officer and was shot in the street! You might hear the screaming crowd and the ambulances in the final video when it comes out.

On returning from Tel-Aviv late at night, our taxi had to make a detour as Molotov cocktails thrown by Palestinians were exploding nearby. I could see the fighting from the hotel windows. The intensity even affected our time there as rumors started to appear online that Jordan had "stormed" the Temple mount with radical settlers. In fact, our group visiting and filming the Dome of the Rock was ambushed by settlers who tried to mix with our group to be seen with JBP.

Despite all this, our general experience was extremely positive and most people on all sides were genuine and kind. I made two videos for my own channel and hope to put them out soon.
 
He did engage with the questioner's two questions, and to the last one he just said (in a sincere and pained tone) he couldn't answer, likely for the reasons Turgon mentioned.

It was really hard to hear what he said, although I did hear his last comment.
Sadly, I think he does know. I'll share Jonathan Pageau's report of their time there again.

Our time in Jerusalem...​


Yes agree, he should well know, wouldn't he? This current trip seemed well sanitized and managed.
 
"Good Morning Norway (GMN) has published an interview with Yorund Victoria Alme, 53, a working man who now identifies himself as a disabled woman. Alme, senior credit analyst Handelsbanken in Oslo. In an interview, he said that he always wanted to be born a paralyzed woman.
Norway Jolund Victoria Alme from Oslo. Actually a man who somehow became a woman over time. Medically, he is perfectly healthy. But his brain refuses to believe that he can walk. He identifies as a woman whose legs no longer work. On Norwegian television, such people are respectfully called "trans-disabled"."

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Original Facebook post.
 
"Good Morning Norway (GMN) has published an interview with Yorund Victoria Alme, 53, a working man who now identifies himself as a disabled woman. Alme, senior credit analyst Handelsbanken in Oslo. In an interview, he said that he always wanted to be born a paralyzed woman.
Norway Jolund Victoria Alme from Oslo. Actually a man who somehow became a woman over time. Medically, he is perfectly healthy. But his brain refuses to believe that he can walk. He identifies as a woman whose legs no longer work. On Norwegian television, such people are respectfully called "trans-disabled"."

View attachment 66683

Original Facebook post.
Interesting. Maybe Oliver Sacks treated cases like this. But is there an Oliver Sacks somewhere to help this type of person? Really, some people are really strange.
 
So my question is: is public anger directed at an individual who you deem to be acting in a way that is harmful to vulnerable people ever warranted? Is it is ever a 'good' to do so, especially in the context where you could have dialed down your anger and not direct it specifically at a single person?

It's interesting that Russel Brand is asking Jordan Peterson in a way to not identify the individual in this situation but talk in generalities. Would he be happier if Peterson just referred to an "anonymous famous" :umm:person who self-mutilates, and through their fame and actions might inspire other young people to do so? With dire results?

In this particular case - the law of three applied - I think he was right to call Page out. She is in the spotlight, her transitioning was proudly and widely announced. Through her status, she has some influence - especially on a topic that spreads like fire through social contagion recently. The people who truly suffer from gender dysphoria and would have transitioned would have done it anyway, no matter who said what and where, and have been doing it for quite a while. What's happening these days though, is that a lot of confused, depressed, perhaps on the spectrum, perhaps suffering from mental illness kids, are made to believe that if they take the hormones and cut parts of their body, they will finally feel better and they will fit in. It's obviously not Page's fault, to begin with, but she is an influencer. Probably a victim herself, of attention-seeking narcissism or just trying to work through her own mental illness or handled by sinister Holywood forces, who knows. If Peterson's comment can make some people think and perhaps save a couple of kids from the transitioning hole, I think it was worth it, even if Page feels offended by it.

And speaking of sinister Holywood forces :whistle: Lex Fridman had a long talk with Keney West recently. Lex's beef with West in this interview was West's assertion that Jews are behind everything in the media industry or words to that effect. In contrast to Russel Brand's point, Lex chided West for his generalization and wished that he had named names and individual deeds instead of grouping an entire race in his assertion.

So obviously, there are some topics that are "highly sensitive" when it comes to publicly talking about them and there's a plethora of advice out there as well as punishments imposed if you talk about them the "wrong way". And because I am curious and I want to know about stuff and what's really going on, I think that people like Peterson and West should keep on talking about them, even if they don't do it the "right" way because just talking about them will always find them at fault by the media. No matter how they say it, they will be "canceled", it's a no-win situation. And these are topics that need to be talked about. Doing something for the greater good is better than doing nothing, even if one is not doing it in the best possible way, I think.
 
That would be the evolution of my perception, and obviously I have no respect for any one shilling for the vaccine, why would I?

Did you see that he recanted and realized he had been conned? Surely you allow for people being lied to and manipulated, as long as they realize it? Maybe you have a tendency to want your heroes (or people you admire) to be whiter than white, and according to your definition of that? If so, you're not gonna have any heroes, or people you admire.

How do you know he's not just back tracking like vast swathes of the media in general? Because they were wrong to begin with, how can he be so "intelligent" and yet so wrong about blatant totalitarian propaganda, dodgy vaccine studies, the trampling of civil liberties, false flag emergency use powers, and billions of pounds of money flowing in profits?

He's either intelligent enough to spot the greatest con in modern history, or he's not - you can't have it both ways.

I view your counter argument as rationalisation for supporting a shill.
 
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