next »

Here you can see a photo of a cell at the Hoffman Estates Police Department showing the water fountain sink mounted over the toilet.

http://www.hoffmanestates.org/police/Tour_Page/Police_cell.shtml

So much for Bollyn's claim that there was no water and he was being deprived...

A message from a QFG member in Chicago:

Regarding Bollyn's claims that his family "founded" Hoffman Estates, what he more than likely meant was that his parents bought their home (in 1957, the year he was born) when Hoffman Estates was brand new; that his family was there from the beginning.  It's a Midwestern version of Levittown (out on Long Island) - the beginnings of post-WWII suburbia - a huge, sprawling tract home development - so large that they made it a town.

Here's a little background:

THE AMERICAN DREAM

The American Dream. It's not about marble floors or granite countertops. It's not about acreage,
square footage, three-car garages or stainless steel appliances.

"That's the American Expectation. The American Dream is much more basic than that" contends Jack
Hoffman, a home building legend in the Chicago-area market for decades.

Hoffman knows more than most about the American Dream. It was he, after all, who tapped into it big
time back in the late 1940's.

A Navy veteran himself, Hoffman was one of countless young men both eligible and eager to take
advantage of the GI Bill to go back to school and/or secure a mortgage.

"If you were a GI, you could literally buy a home with no money down. All you needed was a job."

Along with his father Sam, Hoffman began to meet the GI demand for "basic" starter housing, first in
the Phoenix area, then in Chicago.

"At the time, there hadn't been much building in Chicago since the 1920's, so there was tremendous
potential." Especially in the yet-to-be-developed suburban areas where Hoffman and his father
purchased 200 acres in the mid 1950's that eventually became Hoffman Estates. Today, Hoffman Estates
is home to almost 50,000 people and boasts a housing stock including more than 9,200 single-family
homes, 4,500 multi-family homes and 2,900 townhomes as well as more than 1-million square feet of
retail shopping.

"We gave people what they wanted most - a deed. When I was growing up, only rich people owned a
home. The ability to own a home - however humble it might be - and have your own back yard to call
yours alone, that was the American Dream."

Read the rest here:

http://www.lakewoodhomes.com/NArticle.asp?category=Corporate+News&ArticleID=2001-06-13-001

He's gone on multiple shows now repeating that he was given no water the whole time he was in jail - 6 hours.

Why tell such a stupid lie?

Lisa

Well, Hoffman Estates isn't entirely crime-free...


"With DUI arrests in Hoffman Estates fluctuating between 300 and 500 annually over the last four years, the village could garner an extra $150,000 to $250,000."
http://www.duiblog.com/2005/10/17


Lisa

Looks like they have a tactical unit for a reason, too.
_________________________________________________ _______


Hammerskin Nation member arrested
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2004/03/103163.shtml

Members of the white supremacist organization have been tied to hate crimes in Texas, Arizona, Massachusetts and California over the last 10 years

A Hoffman Estates man belonging to one of the nation's most violent and notorious neo-Nazi skinhead groups was arrested in January in a Schaumburg hotel room during a federal weapons and drugs sting.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms arrested Bulent "Billy" B. Arseven, 21, of 460 Aberdeen St., as well as two other Hoffman Estates men -- Frankie C. Pizzo, 21, of 640 Almond Lane; and Jeremy D. Bellen, 20, of 680 Ash Road -- as part of an alleged plot to purchase automatic weapons and sell cocaine. Arseven faces weapons and drug charges; Pizzo and Bellen, drug charges.

EXCLUSIVE

The four-month cooperative investigation involved the ATF, the Hoffman Estates Police Department's tactical unit and West Chicago Police Department.

Arseven was arrested at 2:15 p.m. Jan. 7 by undercover ATF agents and Hoffman Estates police at the Comfort Suites, 1100 E. Higgins Road, Schaumburg, after he allegedly attempted to purchase guns and fully automatic weapons from an undercover ATF officer using $750 and an unknown quantity of cocaine. The weapons involved in the sale were a fully automatic Intertec Tec-9, a 9 mm fully automatic machine pistol and several handguns.

He faces two federal charges: possession of a machine gun and delivery of a controlled substance. If convicted, he could be sentenced to up 40 years in prison.

Police officials have not linked the weapons buy to a potential violent event, said Thomas Ahern, an ATF special agent.

"He (Arseven) had boasted that he was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, but we don't know of any planned incident that he intended to carry out. Something like this leads you to speculate, though, on what someone would do with these fully automatic handguns," he said.

The investigation, which began in November 2003, is typical of the kind of work performed by ATF agents in and around Chicago, Ahern said.

"He trafficked in cocaine and was prepared to pay for the guns with a combination of cash and drugs. The ATF is committed to ridding society of those individuals who will use firearms to further their narcotics business or commit acts of violence," he said.

Arseven was released on bond from federal custody on Jan. 30, but is confined to his home. He is required to wear an electronic monitoring device at all times. His trial date in federal court has not been set.

Two of the three men are active gang members, according to Hoffman Estates police reports.

Arseven is an self-admitted member of the Arizona Hammerskins. When police raided his home on Aberdeen, they found a large amount of 9 mm and 7.62 mm ammunition, Nazi paraphernalia and white supremacist literature. The tattoos adorning his arms, chest and stomach confirm his gang affiliation, police said. They include a Maltese cross, a numerical reference to Adolf Hitler, and the words "honor" and "pride."

One of the men arrested with Arseven, Pizzo, is an active member of the Two-Two Boys, a gang based in Cicero. It has a small number of members in Hoffman Estates, law enforcement officials say.

At about the same time Arseven was being arrested, so was Pizzo. A native of West Chicago, Pizzo was arrested at his home at 2:30 p.m. Jan. 7, where he is originally from, and is charged with felony delivery of a controlled substance. His next court date has not been set.

Arseven allegedly had Pizzo and Bellen store narcotics at their homes, Ahern said.

Bellen was arrested a short time later, at 4 p.m. Jan. 7, at his home where Hoffman Estates tactical officers reportedly discovered 19 grams of cocaine, a small amount of marijuana and packaging material. Bellen is charged with possession of marijuana, felony possession of a controlled substance with intent to deliver and possession of a controlled substance. His next court date is March 9.

Arseven's and Bellen's arrests were not publicized by local police, but Pizzo's arrest was referenced on the police blotter.

Arseven's link to white supremacists troubles watchdog groups.

Hammerskin Nation is considered the nation's most organized and feared skinhead group, said officials with the Anti-Defamation League, which combats racism and anti-Semitism.

Members of the white supremacist organization have been tied to hate crimes in Texas, Arizona, Massachusetts and California over the last 10 years, the ADL said.

The group was formed near Dallas in the late 1980s and now has chapters in countries across the world.

Rich Hirschhaut, Chicago regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said the implications of the arrests are alarming.

"It appears this ATF investigation may have very well interrupted a conspiracy involving a toxic combination of drugs, an ideology of hate and the lethal weapons needed to act on that ideology," he said.

Hirschhaut said people at the ADL had no knowledge of the arrests, but would investigate the incident.

Devin Burghart, a spokesman for the Center for New Community, a Chicago faith-based group which promotes racial equality and monitors hate groups, said some Hammerskins in this region are extraordinarily dangerous.

"One subgroup that is strongest in northern Indiana and Minnesota was kicked out of the larger group because they were deemed too violent and prone to criminal activity. The so-called Outlaw Hammerskins in these areas have caused activity in Chicago and the suburbs as well, but it's not improbable that the regular Hammerskins could be involved in something like this," Burghart said.

The Center for New Community's campaigns include, "Turn it Down," a boycott of Chicago and suburban record stores that sell white power music.

More criminals:

Registered Sex Offenders - Hoffman Estates
13 of the 14 currently registered sex offenders committed a crime with a minor under the age of 17.

http://www.hoffmanestates.com/police/alerts/Police_sex_offenders.shtml

I'm not sure if you are doing Bollyn a favor but your analysis is absurd.  Piper pointed out correctly that the Northwest Suburbs is a hotbed of ADL activity.  Are you against MCP too?  Asking Russo if he knows about the ADL is like asking the fox about the henhouse!  You are well on your way to making a legend of yourselves!
     You can pretend that you are not taking the other side but you are digging yourself in.

[what is]

I'm not sure if you are doing Bollyn a favor but your analysis is absurd....     You can pretend that you are not taking the other side but you are digging yourself in.

Collecting data is where an analysis starts. Lisa is collecting data. We are collecting data.

Only fools make up their minds prior to having the data. Hypotheses can change as data is collected, but most people don't make hypotheses because their minds are made up beforehand. They just want to verify what they already believe.

We are interested in what is, not what we would wish things to be.

[corresponds to the facts]

your analysis is absurd

It seems obvious, Mattija, that you either have not read all the evidence presented in this thread, or that you simply do not understand the meaning of the word "truth."

Let me try to help you out:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ursa/philos/cert04.htm

 What is truth?

In its basic usage, the adjective "true" has a very straightfoward meaning. J.L. Austin summarised it thus: to assert that a proposition p is true is to maintain that "p corresponds to the facts", which he says is "a piece of standard English" and therefore "can hardly be wrong". More precisely, the word "true" denotes the validity of an intended (or expected) correspondence between a representation and what it represents. This is clear from the following examples.

    * In a street plan of North Oxford, if the lines of the plan exhibit approximately the same two-dimensional shape as streets, we say it is true to the geography.

    * A woman is prosecuted for causing a car crash, but claims it was another driver's fault. She appeals to a video recording made from a traffic camera. If what the woman says agrees with what is seen on the videotape, then we say that her claim is true to the facts.

    * In a physics exam, I am confronted by a multiple-choice question, which says "Tick which of the following propositions is true ...". I then tick whichever of the propositions corresponds to the experimental results that I have seen or read about in textbooks.

    * Before a consultation witha psychiatric doctor, I fill in a questionnaire with multiple-choice questions about my headaches and other mental disturbances, such as hallucinations, which again begins by saying "Tick which of the following propositions are true ...". I then tick those that correspond to my private mental experiences.

What these all have in common is that each situation involves two 'systems', purportedly linked by a 'mapping'. One system is a 'representation' of the other, the latter being called 'reality'. The purpose of the mapping is to let us use the representation to communicate infomation about the reality. In the first example, the two systems are (a) a piece of paper with pencil marks on it and (b) North Oxford, and the mapping is a spatial isomorphism between those two. This is a useful mapping, because you can carry the plan around in your pocket, whereas you cannot carry North Oxford around with you; and it enables you to find places in North Oxford.


Thus truth, in these basic cases, is merely the corresepondence between the representation and what it represents. This is just common sense, but philosophers call it The Correspondence Theory of Truth.

I think you will agree with me that we very much need such truth - words that accurately represent reality.  I think we can all agree that we don't get very much Truth from either the mainstream media or our government.  911 is a prime example: almost nothing of the government's story about the events of that day correspond to the reality as so many 911 researchers have proven.

And so, we most certainly want the alternative media and the 911 Research movement to deal only with the truth, even in the smallest of matters where a one to one correspondence CAN be determined between the words we use to describe reality and the reality "on the ground."

Are you with me so far?

Good.

Now, take a very simple statement made by Christopher Bollyn:

I was thrown into a cell with no water. I asked for a drink of water and was told, "Drink from the toilet."

Next, consider the statement of Lt. Russo regarding this claim by Bollyn:

6)  Every cell in the jail has both a toilet and a sink that is also a water fountain.  So when
Bollyn says he was put into a cell without any water and told to drink from the toilet, the question
is, why doesn't he mention the water fountain inside the cell, from which he had every opportunity
to drink?  Russo says nobody told him to drink from the toilet.

Now, look at a photograph of a cell in the jail where Bollyn was held:



There is is, look at it.  See the sink with water fountain knob at the back of the cell?  

Now, go back to "what is truth?"

Thus truth, in these basic cases, is merely the corresepondence between the representation and what it represents.

The truth is that the cell had a water fountain.  This statement made by Lt. Russo - the "representation" - corresponds with the reality, i.e. that there IS, in fact, a water fountain in the cell.

It does NOT correspond with the statement made by Christopher Bollyn.

I was thrown into a cell with no water. I asked for a drink of water and was told, "Drink from the toilet."

Got it?

Good!

Now, re-read Bollyn's initial statement, before it started morphing after so many people noted oddities and discrepancies... and this time do it with the firm understanding that Bollyn has lied about this one thing - and more than that, has lied about it perniciously - so how do we know that anything else he says is true?

Nobody is "taking the other side," it is simply the TRUTH that we want.  And with the firm knowledge that COINTELPRO is undoubtedly the substratum of most of the 911 Truth/Research Movement - a simple fact of deduction based on historical precedent - the likelihood is, based on analysis, that Christopher Bollyn is either an agent embedded into the movement from the very earliest days of the moves of the Neocons to take over this country, or he is a psychopathic wannabe.

I would select the latter option since his story about this incident is so pathetically transparent except for the fact that he evidenced certainty that he would not be shot when he ran away from an altercation that he created.  In this day and time, that can get you shot instantly.  That he was NOT shot when he ran from the police I find mightily curious and suggestive.

Of course, even that could suggest a very humanistic police policy in this neighborhood - a preference for less lethal means of protection and restraint than those used elsewhere in this country that, we all agree, is rapidly becoming a fascist police state.  In that case, Bollyn is NOT even a COINTELPRO agent - he is a pathetic wannabe.

It just happens that Christopher Bollyn's experience is not an example of police brutality of police state tactics; it is anything but.  It's a cheap publicity stunt no matter how you look at it.  

So, finally, if you choose to believe a liar, that's your prerogative.  It seems to be the trend in the 911 movement for the most part anyway - and that is by design.

Take that to the bank.

All together it manages to downplay the Israel involvement. Interesting that this comes right after Thorn's 911 book. Bollyn is one of the few researchers that focusses on the Pentagon AND Israel.

This has generated a lot of hysteria on the internet, and it appears to me that this was the anticipated end result and it worked like a charm.They got their hysteria. People have been whipped up into a frenzy over this, similar to how the mainstream media whips the public into a frenzy over this or that.

A couple thoughts on the timeline of things that happened:
- Aug 4th 9-11 EVIL released
- Tuesday  ~ August 15th " Christopher Petherick: American Free Press " on Wing TV - one of the main topics discussed is the upcoming Free Speech Conference in Wash DC being held by AFP over Labor Day weekend.  Christopher Bollyn mentioned at around 13:30 in relation to another person/issue by Christopher Petherick - to the affect "You and your listeners know all Christopher has done on 911."  "Yeah, he's at the forefront" - Victor Thorn.
- Tuesday - incident happens
- Wed - Bollyn story comes out.
What first comes to mind is that this incident and the exposure will definitely boost interest and attendance in the conference that AFP is holding/sponsoring - must be a AFP subscriber to attend as mentioned on the Wing TV show.  I don't know if AFP is suspect, but Bollyn definitely seems to be.  The incident could be a stunt to give exposure and credit to Bollyn and/or AFP.  Could also be a stunt to discredit WingTV by association.

I don't know if AFP is suspect,

If you read back over the thread, where I put together a little timeline of Bollyn's life based on what little can be found, I noted that he went right from IBM to AFP as one of their TOP journalists. He was immediately sent to a Bilderberger conference.

Now don't you find that strange?

Also, I mentioned the fact that American Free Press does, indeed, sound like one of the "3rd Rank Opposition" media organs as described in Protocol 12.

In short, AFPs vigorous defense of Bollyn under the circumstances puts a HUGE question mark over this organization in my opinion.  

What all of the 911 Greek Chorus seems to be repeating is that Wing TV is "taking the other side" or "siding with the enemy."  Well, heck, I thought that style of politics went out with Henry VIII.  You know, "friend of my friend is my friend, enemy of my friend is my enemy", otherwise known as "if you aren't with us, you're against us."  Sound familiar?  Aren't we over that crap?  Whatever happened to TRUTH and evaluating each and every situation on its own merit?

Sure, we can all pretty much agree that the U.S. is going down the road of Fascist Tyranny, just a few steps away from a full-blown Police State.  It just happens that, in this particular case, Bollyn has been caught lying and twisting, and changing the story, and the original story didn't sound right to begin with.  So, are we going to act exactly like that which we condemn?  Just because they are "the police," they are all bad and evil and ANY interaction with them is always THEIR fault, they are BAD, and NEVER fair or reasonable, or even there to protect anyone?  That's no better than saying all Muslims are terrorists and all Americans are Neocons, and all Jews are psychopaths.

Come on, people!  We are after the TRUTH here, not opinion or beliefs!

And we need to get real and have a firm grip on our minds to be able to navigate the tricks and traps set up by COINTELPRO from the BEGINNING!  

Remember:

"Our culture agrees on the signs of lying. Ask anyone how to tell if someone is lying and they will tell you that they can tell by "lack of eye contact, nervous shifting, or picking at one's clothes." Psychologist Anna Salter writes with dry humor: "This perception is so widespread I have had the fantasy that, immediately upon birth, nurses must take newborns and whisper in their ears, "Eye contact. It's a sign of truthfulness."

The problem is, if there is a psychopath - or those with related characteropathies - who doesn't know hot to keep good eye contact when lying, they haven't been born. Eye contact is "universally known" to be a sign of truth-telling. The problem is liars will fake anything that it is possible to fake, so in reality, eye contact is absolutely NOT a sign of truth telling.

The practiced liar: a category of liar that even experts find it difficult to detect.

Problem is, even when dealing with people who are not practiced liars, such as college students who have volunteered for a research study of lying, most observers are not as good as they think in detecting deception. The research shows consistently that most people - even most professional groups such as police and psychologists - have no better than a chance ability to detect deception. Flipping a coin would serve as well.

In this case, the story Bollyn tells and the story the police tell match on almost all points EXCEPT that Bollyn claims that they were surveilling HIM and that they began the confrontation and then just attacked him for no reason when he ran away.  

The police agree with all the basic points of his story except that they claim he is the one who started the confrontation and that - considering the circumstances - when he bolted and ran, they had no way of knowing that he wasn't going for a weapon or to initiate some kind of armed stand-off.  

Bollyn says that he was further beaten, tortured and put in a cell with no water.

Well, we know that this last is clearly and provably a lie.  

We also suspect certain things about Bollyn based on a fairly simple psychological analysis of what he wrote about the incident to begin with.  

And so, in the end, the most logical conclusion, based on an unemotional analysis is that Christopher Bollyn is just simply lying about the whole incident.  

That's not taking sides.  Geeze, it would be SO much more entertaining if he was telling the truth and we could all add it to our collective arsenals for lobbing truth grenades at the Neocon Administration.  We LOVE doing that stuff, come on!!!

But it isn't the TRUTH.

And it is a set-up.

Take THAT to the bank.

I am playing devil's advocate, so here are some questions:

Can we believe Lt. Russo at his word (because of his official position)
that Bollyn was put in the cell as in the photo as claimed?  I don't see
Bollyn AND the cell in the photo AND a timestamp proving this.

Is it true that there should be security cameras that can conclusively
prove Bollyn whereabouts, entered the said police building, and shows
him being put into the said cell?

We know that today, cameras are EVERYWHERE, cheap (since it's
the taxpayer who pays for it), so shouldn't we demand proof to
verify/backup the police's or Bollyn's statements.  Aren't we being
too trusting to allow the fox to guard the henhouse, if true or not,
because we the people put these officals in charge?

Perhaps all the "i"'s should be dotted and all the "t"'s should be
crossed before totally trusting anyone's word at face value?

To me, it is all still OPEN.  The truth is still ellusive, IMHO.

If you read back over the thread, where I put together a little timeline of Bollyn's life based on what little can be found, I noted that he went right from IBM to AFP as one of their TOP journalists. He was immediately sent to a Bilderberger conference.

Now don't you find that strange?

Also, I mentioned the fact that American Free Press does, indeed, sound like one of the "3rd Rank Opposition" media organs as described in Protocol 12.

In short, AFPs vigorous defense of Bollyn under the circumstances puts a HUGE question mark over this organization in my opinion.

Yes it is strange.   "I don't know if AFP is suspect" wasn't the best way to put it.  You're right their actions are suspect.  What isn't fully clear to me, since the only exposure and information I have about AFP is from this thread and Wing TV,  is if individuals from AFP and others associated with them are defending Bollyn out of some level of ignorance and not willing to call out one of their own when obvious information comes out that Bollyn is making things up or that they fully understand what they are doing.  Either way their actions do speak.  If they defend his lies, then they are COINTELPRO, whether it is willingly or unwillingly.

Now I feel like.. to me I feel like I am in a way an implant and have to some degree been made to look like I am hi-jacking a very interesting topic, but for what? [...]
Heavens no, I just wish I'd done my research while following along and found that, well I have no evidence just the memory and disk and then not make mention of it. In the end it would have proven fruitless. I discredit myself for? =\ Lame.

Noise, what you wrote about the 'knowing this face' about Bollyn and then jumping to Ruppert without an explaination didn't make sense and looks like subtle manipulation.  If you saw one or both even for a short time, your impression or evaluation of them could be valuable.  Mentioning it into this thread repeatedly without having it clear in your mind, might not have been the best idea.  

The reason that there is a weaker link in my memory with Bollyn is that Ruppert was the Customer and Bollyn bailed after a minute knowing the situation would take time. [...]
Bollyn left, something about a hotel..(I could be making that part up.. arghh my memory..) whomever was wtih Ruppert left to go back to the hotel.

I still don't know what to make of your story.

I was thrown into a cell with no water. I asked for a drink of water and was told, "Drink from the toilet."

Ok, the above statement is from Bollyn's story about what he said happened in the jail cell. Now, remember, we are only after the 'truth'. The jail cell photo does show there is a sink above the toilet. Granted. That is a fact, but that may not be the whole truth! We must not assume because we see a sink in the photo that there is water. How do we know for a fact that the fountain or sink was working properly and had running water?

We don't know. Therefore, it's possible when Bollyn asked for a drink of water it could be because the water fountain was not working in that cell. We all probably had the experience of going for a drink at a water fountain and the water pressure was too low and the water just barely trickled out or not at all. We must know all the facts first before we can arrive at the truth.

We are all doing a wonderful job of convaincing each other of how bad the gestaspo,and how powerful it is getting among us, but outside of preaching to ourself; what can we do to change this around, we are outgun, they own most of the media, and they now have in the book enough laws to put us away just for nor brushing your teeth.
 Desparate I am yes....well the Lakota say if it get real nasty; just pray harder................