Programs Evident In Daily Life

Mike_3091

The Force is Strong With This One
Well today was a a good day for me, most of them are nowadays. Anyways as I went about my day there were three occurences that made me stop and think - I love it when that happens! Of the three, two are permissable for this forum.

So the the first one that I noticed happen was directly evident to me. I was in a phone conversation with my mom. During this call, she began once again expressing her worries of my business practices. She is entirely fine with my line of work but not how I conduct it. Over the past few days this has been a reoccuring subject. It seems to come up frequently as if I didn't hear her concerns the first time. This broken record style of thinking was really apparent to me and slightly tiring... In my work I have to extend a considerable amount of faith or trust in people in terms of exchange of moneys. This bothers her and today she finally just said outright why. She said to me, " In a business you have to have a great deal of control." I told her that I don't have to control anything and that I have complete faith in the person I deal with. I then went on to say that worrying does an individual nothing - you gain nothing from it. (It is the least productive thing I think anyone can do) I then told her that she has kept on telling me this over and over again and I understood her concerns the first time around. That this so called "advice" was not going to affect my decisions or my free-will. At the end of the conversation she said soemthing that really resonated with me. She said, "I wish I could be more like you." It is not too often you hear someone say that or coming from an older person to a much much younger person - as in this case.

I understand her concerns to a point. I extend goods and receive money at a later date. I understand that this would concern any person. However, there is information that changes this. I have told her how my business relation has been ongoing for a couple months now and that I have never had a problem. On many occasions, I have been at fault in the business relations yet he still always comes through. This would be enough to assuage most logical peoples worries. However, it didn't for her which made this program apparent. Despite the obvious trusting and well proven relationship, she still thought control was essential.

The second occurence happened about a half hour ago. I went to the local sushi restaurant and ordered sushi salad and miso soup to go. I then waited outside. While I was waiting, this young-ish couple came up to the restaurant and stopped a foot in front of me. They were apparently looking for some food. The was interested in eating here and the man was too for a moment. They quickly glanced at the menu outside and then the man said, "It looks kind of dead." The women was a bit puzzled and inquired. The man followed up with, "...I dunno there not too many people in there. Let's go get some pizza I know about a good place." Now I have been to this good pizza shop. I immediately knew what he was talking about. It is right around the block from the sushi shop. I know both shops well. Both serve good food and the sushi isn't that fake prerolled in a plastic box type of thing. They have a chef behind the sushi bar cutting the fish and all. But my point is that this man made an immediate descision based on what other people think. What the majority, if you will, thinks. To which I asked myself, how do you know something intimately and truthfully if you do not explore it yourself. I ended up thinking how much sheep need other sheep. Protection in the flock. Why dare to do anything adventerous when you can always place the safe bet by what others think. Then you don't have to worry your little sheepy mind.

I felt like posting this - while I was eating my good sushi of course!
 
Mike_3091 said:
Well today was a a good day for me, most of them are nowadays. Anyways as I went about my day there were three occurences that made me stop and think - I love it when that happens! Of the three, two are permissable for this forum.

Mike_3091, if you have an issue with what is and what is not permissible on this forum, regarding the discussion of drug use and selling, despite having it clearly explained to you, then, perhaps this forum is not for you.

If you do not have an issue with it, then, perhaps, it would be best to stop referring to it as if it were an issue.
 
:huh: I would like you to know I am making a sincere effort to stay within the guidelines of the forum. I am also trying to contribute as best as I can. I don't have an issue at all but because of the past references I was trying to preface my post that there would not be a problem.

I hope you can see now that it is not I who have made this an issue now...
 
Mike_3091 said:
:huh: I would like you to know I am making a sincere effort to stay within the guidelines of the forum. I am also trying to contribute as best as I can. I don't have an issue at all but because of the past references I was trying to preface my post that there would not be a problem.

I hope you can see now that it is not I who have made this an issue now...

Mike, if it were not an issue for you, then why would you continue to bring it up? I have not made it an issue. I am merely pointing out the fact that if you are sincere about participating here, then it is time for you to drop the whole 'this is what I do but I can't talk about it' thing.

It is a very simple matter, and it is up to you.
 
anart said:
Mike, if it were not an issue for you, then why would you continue to bring it up?

The purpose of me bringing it up was so that moderators, more specifically yourself, would understand that I have no intentions of going against the rules of this forum. In my previous posts I have been told about the rules. I have been told specifically by you about the rules. So it was my intention to inform you that the below exposition of genuine thoughts would be in adherence to the rules. So that you, or any other moderator that has informed me of the rules in the past would be put at ease so to speak and offer a discussion of the actual topic presented. Your perception of my post is the exact opposite of my intention. The fact that you choose to comment on this and not the true intent and majority of my initial post is very upsetting to me. I actually had to get up and calm down because I was trying so hard to abide by the rules I even stated (not word for word) that I am abiding by the rules in this post. Yet is still becomes an issue - It is definitely an issue because now the majority of this thread is nothing about what I originally posted or intended.

I am sincere in my participating of this forum and it seems that now I am being harrased. That is how it feels to me. In my post in the memories and dream section. I was told my a moderator about the rules. Then you posted right after that moderator about the rules. It was such strong affirmations - the fact that apparently one was not enough that led me to preface my post like such. Then after both affirmations I said, Let this not impede this thread. When I read a thread and all of a sudden it goes off topic I simply stop reading the thread. You could have Private Messaged me and commented constructively on my actual post and then written soemthing like PS read you're private messages. To me it seems that you keep bringing this up. Now this thread is entirely sidetracked when I was attempting to have a meaningful discussion. Do you understand my intent and point of view, now? Because whatever issue you personally have with me needs to be settled.
 
Mike_3091 said:
The purpose of me bringing it up was so that moderators, more specifically yourself, would understand that I have no intentions of going against the rules of this forum.

That was clear quite a while ago - yet - you are bringing it up yet again in another post.

mike said:
Do you understand my intent and point of view, now? Because whatever issue you personally have with me needs to be settled.

I have no issue with you whatsoever, in any way, shape or form. Please understand that. The thread has not been sidetracked or anything else. Discussions branch, that is what they do. I understand that despite being very willing to 'abide' by forum rules, you continue to refer to 'forum rules' - you continue to put energy into the fact that there are rules at all, when you could just be posting about the topics being discussed.

As I posted in my previous post, it is up to you - hopefully this clarifies enough for you to feel free to post on forum topics and not forum rules.
 
anart said:
That was clear quite a while ago - yet - you are bringing it up yet again in another post.

Okay! I was not under the impression that it was - and thus so I made a small comment about it.

I now understand that it is clear to you.

anart said:
I understand that despite being very willing to 'abide' by forum rules, you continue to refer to 'forum rules' - you continue to put energy into the fact that there are rules at all, when you could just be posting about the topics being discussed.

As I posted in my previous post, it is up to you - hopefully this clarifies enough for you to feel free to post on forum topics and not forum rules.

I have continued to put energy in to the fact because so much previous energy has been upon that and my intent was to avoid it this time around. I am entirely disgusted that this is still an ongoing conversation. I am so tired of it that I am going to bed. I am surprised this whole thing got me so upset and that I feel so drained. It is just when I truly intend for something usually I don't end up having the entirely opposite happen. It will not be an issue in my future posts. Please, let this thread be! I would much like to see this blossom into something beautiful and engaging.

I will be asleep and hope to see this topic back to the trunk of the matter as this "branch" needs to pruned! :P ... :zzz:
 
Hi Mike

The topic is programs in every day life, and the theme here is control. How you see yourself as having relinquished yourself of that burden, or at least that's how I read your two examples. Along comes Anart pointing out there is an issue going on underneath, and suddenly the topic is ruined for branching in ways you do not approve, how is that for control.

The fact that you choose to comment on this and not the true intent and majority of my initial post is very upsetting to me
can you spot the program here. It appears as if you are trying to steer the topic within the confines of what you thougth it should play out as.

I am sincere in my participating of this forum and it seems that now I am being harrased
This forum is very much about finding out about what is harrasing us, a predator mind set acting through programs.

One reason we leave comments out in the open (not in PM) is that we can all learn from it. Let the thread take it's course and by this unearth things which were not clear in the beginning, learning.
 
Freyr said:
Along comes Anart pointing out there is an issue going on underneath, and suddenly the topic is ruined for branching in ways you do not approve, how is that for control.

can you spot the program here. It appears as if you are trying to steer the topic within the confines of what you thougth it should play out as.

O.O (That's my wide eyed smiley). All I can say is wow, it appears I have much to work on despite what others may think. I suppose it is hardest to see things in yourself than in others. To me it was a passing comment that I hardly even thought about. You see because I have a tendency to be completely honest. So when I was writing the initial post I was thinking, Okay what exactly happened. It helps me recount everything as best as I can. When this small comment was made into a "big deal," I had to think why I had posted it.

Mike_3091 said:
The purpose of me bringing it up was so that moderators, more specifically yourself, would understand that I have no intentions of going against the rules of this forum. In my previous posts I have been told about the rules. I have been told specifically by you about the rules. So it was my intention to inform you that the below exposition of genuine thoughts would be in adherence to the rules. So that you, or any other moderator that has informed me of the rules in the past would be put at ease so to speak and offer a discussion of the actual topic presented.

Haha, I think the actual topic presented was by me, but was not apparent to me at first :lol:

Freyr said:
This forum is very much about finding out about what is harrasing us, a predator mind set acting through programs.

One reason we leave comments out in the open (not in PM) is that we can all learn from it. Let the thread take it's course and by this unearth things which were not clear in the beginning, learning.

My thinking of the issue as unimportant and then trying to keep it from becoming a big deal - because I judged it as so. This whole thread has brought a lot to my attention. I think that judging bring about the need to control. If someone truly thinks that X is not befit for Y, that person will try to exert that self-defined fact upon others.

The fact that this made me very upset really surprised me. At the time I thought, I can't believe I am so upset over this! I was though...

I perceive myself as a very "care-free" person. However, I suppose it is because my cares differ greatly from the majority of people. Many other people have told me, You don't care about anything or I wish I could be as carefree as you. The repetition of these has definitely influenced my ideas. WOW! That just made me realize how similar I am to the man in the second example. Sheesh! I suppose the beast truly is within haha. I was truly upset and the only thing that would lead someone to that, I believe, is the ego. This makes me conclude that although I may not exercise control and values of certain things on a large scale - they are still actively present in my being.

I have much contemplation to do. I thank you very much Anart for beginning this, however, It was not enough for me to realize it. Thank you Feryr for being so direct as I definitely needed that!

:D
 
Mike_3091 said:
But my point is that this man made an immediate descision based on what other people think.

Hi Mike_3091. What do you mean exactly? By the above quote, do you mean that you think the man in question decided to go to the pizza place because there were not many people in the sushi restaurant and that the decision was based on the idea that other people must have a low opinion of the sushi place simply because the customer volume was low at that point in time?

I dunno. You think the man might have wanted pizza the whole time and was just looking for an excuse to guide his companion away from the sushi? I've done that before, myself, fwiw. :)
 
Bud said:
Mike_3091 said:
But my point is that this man made an immediate descision based on what other people think.

Hi Mike_3091. What do you mean exactly? By the above quote, do you mean that you think the man in question decided to go to the pizza place because there were not many people in the sushi restaurant and that the decision was based on the idea that other people must have a low opinion of the sushi place simply because the customer volume was low at that point in time?

I dunno. You think the man might have wanted pizza the whole time and was just looking for an excuse to guide his companion away from the sushi? I've done that before, myself, fwiw. :)

Yes, that is what I mean.

Of course the possibility that he might have been acting the entire time to get what he wanted crossed my mind. Although he seemed interested in the sushi- at least at first. So unless he had it planned as soon as he saw the joint from the start then I don't think so. I have met some good actors in my time though - they are quite good at swindling your moneys :mad:
 
Mike_3091
You see because I have a tendency to be completely honest.
Hi Mike_3091 When I hear someone claim "a tendency to be completely honesty" it raises red flags for me because I have learned how nearly impossible this is for us to know as 3D STS entities no matter what our intentions are or whether we are working to become STO candidates.
There is another thread called The Lying in The Work section that may be useful to you.
Eongar wrote
This is a compilation on Gnosis I of Mouravieff. He talks about lying:
These concepts are also discussed in the works of G. Gurdjieff and can be very helpful in understanding the many layered and complex ways we lie to ourselves almost constantly. Becoming aware of how we lie to ourselves is one of the first steps to soul growth and one difficult to accept all at once--it takes determined self-observing and rigorous monitoring to determine at what layer of self-honesty one really is. Good Luck.
shellycheval
 
Hi Mike_3091 ,

I, like shellycheval, had red flags raised upon seeing you write that you have a tendency to be completely honest.

I would like to suggest that you read the following by Mme. de Salzmann and in reading, apply it to yourself. It's titled "The First Initiation":

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self- knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures-talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see-I see myself-by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others-lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions-lies. Your teaching-lies. Your theories, your art-lies. Your social life, your family life-lies. And what you think of yourself-lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.
You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
 
shellycheval said:
Mike_3091
You see because I have a tendency to be completely honest.
Hi Mike_3091 When I hear someone claim "a tendency to be completely honesty" it raises red flags for me because I have learned how nearly impossible this is for us to know as 3D STS entities no matter what our intentions are or whether we are working to become STO candidates.

I agree. It's been a terribly difficult struggle for me as well, and it goes on.

Here's a quote that addresses why people often misunderstand one another:

[quote author=Gurdjieff]
"Then one must learn to speak the truth. This also appears strange to you. You do not realize that one has to learn to speak the truth. It seems to you that it is enough to wish or to decide to do so. And I tell you that people comparatively rarely tell a deliberate lie. In most cases they think they speak the truth. And yet they lie all the time, both when they wish to lie and when they wish to speak the truth. They lie all the time, both to themselves and to others. Therefore nobody ever understands either himself or anyone else. Think—could there be such discord, such deep misunderstanding, and such hatred towards the views and opinions of others, if people were able to understand one another? But they cannot understand because they cannot help lying. To speak the truth is the most difficult thing in the world; and one must study a great deal and for a long time in order to be able to speak the truth. The wish alone is not enough.

To speak the truth one must know what the truth is and what a lie is, and first of all in oneself.

And this nobody wants to know."

ISOTM, 29
[/quote]


Unfortunantly, the issue is slightly more complicated than a man just admitting he lies to himself. He needs also to understand the real meanings of sincerity and honesty. For instance, in one context, honesty and sincerity would be to admit one has lied. In another context, honesty and sincerity would be to acknowledge one's weakness - one's inability to restrain himself from just 'throwing it all out there':


"This fear of losing sincerity is of course self-deception, one of those formulas of lying upon which human weaknesses are based. Man cannot help identifying and considering inwardly and he cannot help expressing his unpleasant emotions, simply because he is weak. Identifying, consid-ering, the expressing of unpleasant emotions, are manifestations of his weakness, his impotence, his inability to control himself. But not wishing to acknowledge this weakness to himself, he calls it 'sincerity' or 'honesty' and he tells himself that he does not want to struggle against sincerity, whereas in fact he is unable to struggle against his weaknesses.

"Sincerity and honesty are in reality something quite different. What a man calls 'sincerity' in this case is in reality simply being unwilling to restrain himself. And deep down inside him a man is aware of this. But he lies to himself when he says that he does not want to lose sincerity.
"So far I have spoken of internal considering. It would be possible to bring forward many more examples. But you must do this yourselves, that is, you must seek these examples in your observations of yourselves and of others.
ISOTM, p.158-160
 
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