Why are you single?

Hi Los. Thanks for posting that teaser from ISOTM. I confess I haven't read the book yet, though I have a collection of excerpts. I wanted to ask: Does Jean Vaysse's view of essence and personality correspond to G's where Vaysse says:

Bud said:

...one can recognize that man consists of two parts: one can be called his “essence,” the other his “personality.” Essence is the inheritance given to man at birth: his physical form, his tendencies, his fundamental characteristics. It is his own property, his inheritance, the bearer of his unique traits, what has been given to him that he might make it bear fruit. And the only real growth of a “man” is the growth of his essence.

His personality, on the contrary, is everything that a man has learned: what he has learned since his birth, from the events of his life, from his education, moral upbringing, social environment, and religion. None of that comes from him, all these elements are brought to him, or imposed from the outside; the only thing that may be his own is the manner in which he may have received them as a result of specific traits of his own essence.

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If so, then could essence be conceived as somewhat similar to a 'child' in everyone's past that remains undeveloped as 'personality' (and all the habits and conditionings that constitute it) formed over it? That would explain the first man's behavior as he sat slumped in his chair with no other desire than, perhaps, for some raspberry jam.

Who was the voice from the corner? Was that the second (younger) man who "spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most simple things" who now sounds more 'aware and present'? If so, is it true that when his personality was also put to sleep, the experiment indicated that his particular essence was much more developed than the first man's?

Apologies if the answers to my questions are very obvious to others, but I seem to need to clarify this in my own mind. Thanks in advance. :)

Bud said:

Hi Los. Thanks for posting that teaser from ISOTM. I confess I haven't read the book yet, though I have a collection of excerpts. I wanted to ask: Does Jean Vaysse's view of essence and personality correspond to G's where Vaysse says:

Bud said:

...one can recognize that man consists of two parts: one can be called his “essence,” the other his “personality.” Essence is the inheritance given to man at birth: his physical form, his tendencies, his fundamental characteristics. It is his own property, his inheritance, the bearer of his unique traits, what has been given to him that he might make it bear fruit. And the only real growth of a “man” is the growth of his essence.

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The only obvious issue I see with the above is that he says essence is man's 'physical form' given at birth. This is a bit tricky, and when put like that, it makes it sounds a bit like essence is your 'clean slate and body' you're born with. To my understanding, essence has no more to do with physical form than the link described by the C's when they mentioned that 'soul marries to genetics', meaning that there must be a genetic potential present for the soul to seat, as it were. Essence is the 'soul' (or the seed of a soul) - it is what is Real. Stating that essence is physical form seems to blur that line, to my understanding, since it seems to bring essence 'down to earth', as it were.

I can't stress strongly enough that you should read ISOTM, I think it will clear up a lot of things for you, which is why it is on the recommended reading list!

b said:

If so, then could essence be conceived as somewhat similar to a 'child' in everyone's past that remains undeveloped as 'personality' (and all the habits and conditionings that constitute it) formed over it? That would explain the first man's behavior as he sat slumped in his chair with no other desire than, perhaps, for some raspberry jam.

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It is my understanding that the first man had little essence present at all, when his false personality was put to sleep, there was nothing there, other than a physical desire for food of some sort.

bud said:

Who was the voice from the corner? Was that the second (younger) man who "spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most simple things" who now sounds more 'aware and present'? If so, is it true that when his personality was also put to sleep, the experiment indicated that his particular essence was much more developed than the first man's?

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Exactly - his personality had gotten in the way of his essence during his normal waking state. When his false personality was put to sleep, his essence could interact and it missed nothing. Also note that G said that 'essence remembers' - so it's not so much a matter of essence being like a child, as it is essence being allowed to manifest in an individual by getting the false personality out of the way. Different people will have different levels of essence development (if an essence is present) according to soul development throughout many lifetimes/experiences (to my understanding).

b said:

Apologies if the answers to my questions are very obvious to others, but I seem to need to clarify this in my own mind. Thanks in advance. :)

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Read ISOTM - you won't regret it. :)

anart said:

Essence is the 'soul' (or the seed of a soul) - it is what is Real. Stating that essence is physical form seems to blur that line, to my understanding, since it seems to bring essence 'down to earth', as it were.

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If that is the case, then I'm very glad I asked.

anart said:

Read ISOTM - you won't regret it. :)

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I'll be investing in that prediction real soon.

I don't claim to fully understand the issue of essence vs personality, so I apologize if I'm just confusing the matter with what follows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I can grasp, the essence is the seed of the soul. If I remember correctly, Gurdjieff also said that the center of gravity of the essence is the emotional center, and in that sense we are more the horse than the coach driver. From this perspective perhaps it is correct to say that the essence is similar (or identical) to the 'inner child' of modern psychology - it holds our deepest lower emotions and can be more or less mature depending on the inner work and life experiences of each person. In some people it can even be death or non-existent. It also makes sense that this would be the seed of the soul, as it is through the work and development of the lower emotional center that we can make contact with the higher centers, and eventually, through the magnetic center, fuse lower and higher emotional centers, effectively seating the soul. Therefore, in a fully souled person, the essence is the soul.

The personality, on the other hand, would be everything we learn through life, including those things meant to protect and buffer the essence from the shocks of life. The problem is that this protection also prevents any possibility of growth for the essence, so the buffers must be carefully destroyed.

But according to Mouravieff the personality must also be developed fully for the growth/seating of the soul. By this I understand that it must learn enough in order to make sense and provide directive support of the process; and that it must be balanced so that each center (intellectual, emotional and motor) does what it's supposed to do without usurping the place or energy of the other.

That's more or less my current understanding anyway, which may be wrong.

Hi menna,

Just want to say I think its great the thoughtfulness and willingness you're giving to the replies to question and look within. not sure the question about when the soul enters the body can be answered but fwiw what I've come across in other teachings is that the soul overshadows the physical form until the moment of decision, being the incarnation process and it is then the soul "houses" or "anchors" in the physical brain and body.

again, not saying that is necessarily true only that is what I've come across.

Mitigate, thats a great word not often used. :)

BTW, amazon is great but if you have local library card I've found success in getting books recommended on this forum there. of course always prefer to buy but there is also a very big list on this forum and have not been able to afford all of them.

cheers.

Menna said:

• I feel like I made a mistake Mrs. Peel and Stormy Knight - you where simply asking a question and sharing an idea and opinion. I encourage the sharing of ideas, feelings and opinions, as that is how we grow through communication. I am extremely extremely extremely sorry that jumped on your reply's saying judgment this and assumption that - sorry about that I guess that’s the human in me.

I took their opinion's as judgments...Shortly after that realized I was wrong that people will view things differently then I and people are entitled to their opinions...Im not sure that qualifies one as being over sensitive...Could be wrong...Sounds like the book will be a challenging read...Exited to start it and I will no doubt look at the youtube link. As I am interested in how to mitigate the ego and identifications.

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Edit: fixed quotes

Los – You are 100% correct that I “Erected a buffer.” And didn’t explore my insulted feeling that I had – I guess I found it easier to say how I felt and not explore it and figure out why I felt that way. I think buffers are in place to protect us but at the same time they protect us from the very thing that can help us the most. I feel that relationships/marriage would have a better success rate if people shared their feelings on a daily basis and didn’t erect buffers to tip toe around the real issues

Thank you Herakles for the complement. “Renting” books from the library would prob be cheaper, but I save all the books that I read. I wan’t to save all of those books and look back on them to see how my interests have changed through the years – Almost like if I died and all that was left was my book collection someone could look at the covers of the books and understand what I was thinking at certain stages in my life – sort of like a book biography. I feel that the books a person reads (being that they chose to read it and didn’t have to for school) can tell a lot about a person.

LOL, Menna! I understand exactly how you feel. I have gotten that alot. I've been single in my life more than I've been in relationships.

No, you can't be 100% happy being single, but then you aren't 100% happy in relationships. I mean c'mon.

But I'm sorry it bugs when people do that. Number one because it's really none of their business.

Then for me the next thing is my sexual orientation is questioned...because I don't have a man. Like I'm single because I'm really a lesbian which just doesn't make sense. What does one have to do with another?

Lol. I mean, if I were a lesbian then I'd be with some female. And she'd be hot because the hot chicks love me ;).

Sometimes though it is really as simple as location, or circles you're in. There are places where the pickins are slim. That's just it. Then you want to be with someone that's approximately on your level. Try talking about some of this stuff with people...

It also bugs just having to repeat yourself.

So, I feel your frustration. I understand it's not earthshaking. You're not overwhelmed by it, it just makes you wonder sometimes what's up with people?

Hi Menna,

A bit of mirroring, raw, may you take it as it was intended.

-Seems you haven't yet understood what was said about your profile pic, or you would have probably removed it.

-You are asked "why are you single" because you look and act as if you were looking for a girlfriend.

-You look and act as if you were looking for a girlfriend because you are looking for a girlfriend.

-You are looking for a girlfriend because you think you can't get one.

-The question bothers you because you are afraid you are going to get caught (not being able to have one).

-You are "building" yourself because you have an ideal of how you should be, and apply all of those characteristics you are so proud about to that end.

-Not questioning the end you apply them to, those traits help reinforce the illusion that you are in the right path by doing that.

-You are looking for a perfect life/relationship.

-You have a very defined opinion about how a perfect relationship should be.

-You are very righteous about it.

-This is your way of avoiding having a girlfriend altogether, pretending none is good enough for you since you cultivate yourself with such zeal who could be up to you.

-You excuse yourself from having a girlfriend in such way to avoid the possible risk of failure, being rejected, or being hurt.

-Natural bodybuilding is like peace keeping army, there is nothing natural about body building, body building is done naturally from age 0 to 18 + -

-The highlight of body building is showing off in front of the mirror or other people, that alone is significant.

-You have been rationalizing in this thread almost from the beginning and the only instance were your "buff" program was brought up you almost gave up yet you resisted the lesson via buffer as los said, kept your pic and your pride intact and went on rationalizing and diverting attention with interesting subjects and friendly comments.

-You want to address those particular issues but the only way you know how to do that is in a covert way, which besides the obvious and superficial ego fattening, is the ultimate purpose of your profile pic and of the thread itself (hopefully).

I don't think you need more building, I think you need to let go now and relax that smile, the judges are not watching, there aren't even any judges, nor there is a competition.

My 2 cents, and again, hope you take it as intended FWIW. I am not judging you, but your programs, and since they are not you, don't even dream of being offended.

R

Here I quote the bits of your own words that lead me to my conclusions above.

Menna said:

This is just me venting as I find it offensive when someone says, "Why are you single." like I am expected to be with someone.

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your own interpretation of why they ask, since you are conceited and proud of your body and external image.

Menna said:

mkrnhr - Yea I usually say "I haven't found the right one yet." which is true.

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Is it? you keep yourself safe.

Menna said:

Thanks for your response I feel that people have been imprinted with the thought of "I need to be in a relationship."

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You feel that. Your feeling is that, it is yours and you project it IMHO.

Menna said:

But I get the feeling that question has a negative curiosity to it. Like people are trying to find out what's wrong.

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Again you have a feeling and the feeling is yours to project.

Menna said:

It was very interesting I was driving with my friend last night and he was talking about his 31yr old female cousin. How she has been in and out of relationships. I asked is she in a relationship now? He said yes but she is going to break up with the guy and is playing him along. I asked does the guy know about this and he said NO. She said he isn't her type and she’s going to break up with him before summer so she can have fun.

How can a person treat another person like this? Talk about using someone, talk about a STS being. If two people want to have fun and don’t want anything serious then great as long as they both know what is going to happen - in my opinion that’s ok if both are on the same page. But to know that you are going to break up with someone months in advance and to start a relationship knowing that it isn't going to last without letting your partner know about how you feel is really sickening.

This isn't the first time ive heard this type of relationship story either. Makes me think wow, how can a person think this is an appropriate way to act towards another person. I would find it more acceptable if someone was to walk around naked yelling all the time, at least they aren't playing with another person's emotions and life.

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Notice the righteous tone.

Menna said:

Perceval - That is a picture of myself. But to tell you the truth looking this way doesn't help - in my case, my personality and character doesn't match up with the picture - most girls think I sleep around - only interested in a one night stand - Couldn't be farther from the truth. I worked on my body because I had low self esteem now people think im cocky without getting to know me - funny how that works. And If I was you I would be thinking - well it doesn't help your case if you post pictures like this lol

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Of course it does help, it is meant to be that way, you are sabotaging your own mission, negating it by saying you are single by choice but being so perfect any girl would want to be with you or wonder why such a man would be still single.

Menna said:

I worked on my body because I had low self esteem now people think im cocky without getting to know me - funny how that works. And If I was you I would be thinking - well it doesn't help your case if you post pictures like this lol

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ditto, you are fighting with yourself. What is your case? Getting a girlfriend.

Menna said:

When someone who is not in a relationship looks at two people who are they say "I want what they have" without knowing what they truly have. You must "Know thyself" first before you can get to know another. You must be truly intimate and loving with yourself before you can with another. If you aren't comfortable with yourself you can never be with another. Thats why the day I found this website/forum I said to myself "I found something great" this website/forum is a great place to gain knowledge and apply it. Using the knowledge to strip away the programing and get to know yourself and improve.

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Sounds as if you are preparing yourself, and only once you have built yourself you will finally be good enough for a girlfriend.

Menna said:

Floetus - Your avatar gives me the chills

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Calling attention, please look at my avatar!!

Menna said:

Floetas - You said your ego feels pretty vulnerable. I’ve had that feeling many times. It almost feels like im FREE. It should make you realize that the ego is not you. I believe I said in a previous topic that during conversations I sometimes feel the need to build up my ego. I recognize what I have done and at this point my ego feels vulnerable because I have recognized it.

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Ah the words we choose. Almost, it should..but it doesn't of course because we still resist. Feel the need....

Menna said:

I was hoping that the people on this forum would look outside the picture (Think outside the box) and realize what characteristics it takes for one to look like this naturally.

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look like what, and it is not natural unless you look like that for doing something which purpose was other than to look like that.

Menna said:

On the contrary I am very self-conscious by nature and that is what drives me.

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indeed you are very self conscious as opposed to natural and genuine.

Menna said:

Daco - Usual people who chase and seek the attention of women have had sex before.

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Freudian slip? note that DAco's post had nothing to do with having had sex before.

Menna said:

So in closing the avatar picture isn't my 5 year old attempt to say "Hey look at me"

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It wasn't also a picture of a horse. Your choice of words is again worth investigating.

Menna said:

I wanted others to realize what it takes - what character traits one has to have to look like this.

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why do you wanted that for? nobody is judging. To look like what? Do you think it looks good?

Menna said:

I guess it really was a good decision to choose this avatar - I have learned a lot from reading the various responses. I guess I got defensive when reading the responses and I do that sometimes - especially with my parents - I become defensive and feel like I have to justify myself. ............ This topic has definitely been a learning experience for me. Believe me I do value each post and try and look at each reply objectively. I don't sit here like a 16 your old hotheaded kid saying, "What is this jerk talking about."

Talk about everything happens for a reason- I find it VERY interesting that I put up this avatar and then about 20-30 posts latter I started a topic on "Why are you single" and it leads to this - realizing that I do get overly defensive. I think I learned something about myself.

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Your plan is underlined here. That was not the lesson you came for, meek attempt followed by rationalization of the symptom of the real lesson below.

Menna said:

I wouldn’t say that I identify myself with my body. What I do identify myself with are the character traits - attributes that I have and practice on a daily basis these qualities have lead to the body that I have so it is fair to say I am proud of my body. I couldn't find a pictures that said, will power, dedication, hard work, self sacrifice - So I guess you can say my avatar is a hidden message to what characteristics I have and I will admit I am proud of my characteristics - another word for characteristics is individuality and this is who I am as an individual this is what I was trying to portray.

I do have a questions - Is it wrong to identify yourself with something - is identification purely derived from the ego? If the answer to this quest is yes - what If someone said I identify myself with my soul is that wrong because the soul is who we are?

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More rationalizing. Of course you couldn't find pictures of that to show nobody. Still resisting.

Menna said:

Also I was thinking to myself that in order to identify with something it has to be outside you or else you wouldn't identify with it. Kind of makes one think why would anyone want to identify with something other then themselves. People who identify themselves with something outside of them are looking for happiness from something that isn’t them – that is dysfunctional thinking and never works. After reading the replies to my question I came up with the following - One can't identify with ones soul because that is who they are it is not outside them. Like the previous replies have said it’s not about identifying the soul it’s about being the soul.

Is it wrong that I identify myself with my individual personality? – Instead of saying this is who I am because of what I do and how I act – should I recognize my individual qualities try to understand the reason behind my actions, move on not attaching myself to them - would this be a better way to go about it?

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Finding a way out here, "identification is wrong but if identification with something outside is wrong then I will identify with something inside instead, I have to identify, be my soul be my personality..." drop it!

Menna said:

Los – You are 100% correct that I “Erected a buffer.” And didn’t explore my insulted feeling that I had – I guess I found it easier to say how I felt and not explore it and figure out why I felt that way. I think buffers are in place to protect us but at the same time they protect us from the very thing that can help us the most. I feel that relationships/marriage would have a better success rate if people shared their feelings on a daily basis and didn’t erect buffers to tip toe around the real issues

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Again you feel. And who mentioned relationships/marriage? You. Tip toe around the real issues indeed, you are only half sincere.

Menna said:

I feel that the books a person reads (being that they chose to read it and didn’t have to for school) can tell a lot about a person.

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You feel again, linked to try and cause a good impression on others.

Be well

R

Hey eliansito,

It seems you mean well, but your post to Menna has a certain tone to it. Take for instance the first point you make here:

[quote author=e]-Seems you haven't yet understood what was said about your profile pic, or you would have probably removed it.[/quote]

As far as I can tell there is nothing inappropriate about Menna's profile pic, why should he have it removed? I had a picture of myself as my profile pic for quite a while (albiet as a 4 yr old), and others have done the same at different points on their journey here. I don't think there is anything wrong with this.

As others have pointed out, Menna's choice for a profile pic may be an indication of his identification with his body or bodybuilding, but I still don't see why he should remove the picture.

[quote author=e]My 2 cents, and again, hope you take it as intended FWIW. I am not judging you, but your programs, and since they are not you, don't even dream of being offended.[/quote]

There is a certain flavor about your post here. You've thrown so much at Menna (some of which he's already gone over in other posts), that it doesn't seem all that helpful. Is it possible that Menna's thread here triggered some programs in you?

eliansito said:

A bit of mirroring, raw, may you take it as it was intended.
...
My 2 cents, and again, hope you take it as intended FWIW. I am not judging you, but your programs, and since they are not you, don't even dream of being offended.

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fwiw, (and I could be wrong) I don't think this is a proper way to implement an objective mirror. It seems you may have a 'requirement' for how menna is to respond to this. If so, that's a sign of internal considering, osit. If I am off-base here, I apologize and request someone to please inform me of that fact.

RyanX and Bud,

About the pic by your reply I can see I didn't express myself properly. I am not requesting menna changes his pic out of external consideration nor suggesting it is inappropriate. What I am saying is that if he had understood the point, he himself would not feel the need to have that profile pic because it he wouldnt be identified with that program of his anymore.

It would be a shame that he removed it because anyone told him to, and I am certainly not telling him so. Once he has reached the understanding it really matters little whether he removes it or not, but before he reaches it, the pic shows just that fact.

My intention was to clear the fog and make Menna face his program for what it is.
Whether that is triggered by my own programs it might well be the case, at this point I am not aware that it is so.

The requirement I had in mind is that Menna reached an instance of radical honesty instead of letting rationalizations reign.

I am also be interested to know more about how that would not be proper objective mirroring, and I for one would apologize if that was the case.

Thanks
R

eliansito said:

RyanX and Bud,

About the pic by your reply I can see I didn't express myself properly. I am not requesting menna changes his pic out of external consideration nor suggesting it is inappropriate. What I am saying is that if he had understood the point, he himself would not feel the need to have that profile pic because it he wouldnt be identified with that program of his anymore.

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I think you might be jumping to some conclusions here. The first jump is that Menna's avatar is evidence of identification. It is not. It may be indicative of such, but it is not evidence. The second jump is the idea that a deep understanding on his part of any identification with his body building would necessitate the removal of the avatar - that's not necessarily so, especially if the avatar then serves as a helpful reminder of identification.

eliansito said:

It would be a shame that he removed it because anyone told him to, and I am certainly not telling him so. Once he has reached the understanding it really matters little whether he removes it or not, but before he reaches it, the pic shows just that fact.

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This is a bit of an assumption, actually - and, again, 'leading' Menna by saying that if he only reached this understanding, then it would be obvious. That's not necessarily the case.

eliansito said:

My intention was to clear the fog and make Menna face his program for what it is.

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Why is it your place to 'make' anyone face any program?

eliansito said:

Whether that is triggered by my own programs it might well be the case, at this point I am not aware that it is so.

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Perhaps it might be worth exploring?

eliansito said:

The requirement I had in mind is that Menna reached an instance of radical honesty instead of letting rationalizations reign.

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Could that be applied to you with regards to your response to RyanX?

Also, how are you to know whether or not Menna reached an 'instance of radical honesty'?

eliansito said:

I am also be interested to know more about how that would not be proper objective mirroring, and I for one would apologize if that was the case.

Thanks
R

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See above - hopefully that helps.

Quote from Menna:

"...I wan’t to save all of those books and look back on them to see how my interests have changed through the years – Almost like if I died and all that was left was my book collection someone could look at the covers of the books and understand what I was thinking at certain stages in my life – sort of like a book biography. I feel that the books a person reads (being that they chose to read it and didn’t have to for school) can tell a lot about a person.

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Indeed, if someone were to come into my living room and look at my book cases, they might be inclined to make some assumptions about me. In fact, I used to arrange my books so that it was conspicuous what I am in to. I wanted others to assume that because I have a wide range of esoteric interests that go well beyond every day ordinary subjects, they might think of me as being beyond ordinary. Special.

It is my insecurity of not being good enough. Not being smart enough. Not being interesting enough. That who I am is not enough for someone to think of as inherently worthy. This need to do something or appear to be something; to try to manipulate how someone will view me so that they will be forced to see me in that particular light. It is a mask. A buffer that keeps me safe from having them see the real me.

Many of the books on my shelf were stepping stones. Concepts I have moved beyond and have outgrown. Many of the books are books I re-read every few years or that I refer back to for quotes or research or even just randomly, because they are full of so much great info. They are, strangely a comfort to me to have around. But if I had to pack one suitcase and run for it, I know exactly which books I would grab, and they are not necessarily the one's that someone else would look at and say, "Wow... she must be really smart and interesting."

Sometimes I am beyond these considerations and sometimes I am not. But more and more.... I am not trying so hard to convince others of who I am. I think it was not so much that I was identified with all these books as much as I wanted others to identify me with them. Conditional approval by association.

I hope this discription of my own experience is helpful to you Menna. You bringing it up (not just the books, but the whole subject) is certainly a help to me. Thanks.

Very well put, lauranimal.

Lauranimal said:

In fact, I used to arrange my books so that it was conspicuous what I am in to. I wanted others to assume that because I have a wide range of esoteric interests that go well beyond every day ordinary subjects, they might think of me as being beyond ordinary. Special.

It is my insecurity of not being good enough. Not being smart enough. Not being interesting enough. That who I am is not enough for someone to think of as inherently worthy. This need to do something or appear to be something; to try to manipulate how someone will view me so that they will be forced to see me in that particular light. It is a mask. A buffer that keeps me safe from having them see the real me.

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Fwiw, I've done the same thing. Thanks for posting that, Lauranimal. :)