Work on Unholy Hungers - the absence of the Good Father archetype case
- Thread starter gotogo
- Start date
Buddy said:
Thanks! Amazing how much one can learn by rereading books. There are many good points made by Martha in those last pages. It felt like someone would have hit me on the head when I read Martha's opinion of how there is no instant elimination of unconscious material simply because it is expressed/remembered. I suspect, even though I try not to have any anticipations, that I foolishly wait for this BIG BANG of revelation (of some event I've suppressed) which then would "make everything right". So I really will take this to my heart and try to stop doing this
Off topic: It was interesting to read Martha's comments about "our species" on pages 232-233. She tells how we are a young species (evolutionally) and how we are bare beginners at understanding what conscious awareness is all about. And then she says how she feels that if we are to continue as a species at all, we have to reach this awareness (overcome our traumas) really soon!
obyvatel
The Living Force
Patterson in his Struggle Of The Magicians points out that some of the most prominent students of G like Uspenskii, Orage and Bennett who in the end had problems completely submitting themselves to the teacher and the teaching, shared this state of missing a good father figure in their childhood. (http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=215.0 has some background). Both Uspenskii and Orage's father died early in their lives whereas for Bennett, his father is referred to as not being quite responsible.
Quoting patterson
If a child is forced to take over emotional responsibilities unsuitable for his age due to the unavailability of a father figure (due to absence or incompetence), and specially if the child is able to somewhat "succeed" in that role, it is quite possible that there are deep-rooted effects on the personality of the child. On the good side, he is perhaps going to be self-sufficient, self-driven and resilient and would appear to others as a strong and dependable person. On the downside, there are likely to be control issues arising from an exaggerated sense of self-importance which makes it difficult to be completely open and submit to another person's will - which seemed to be a requirement for Uspenskii, Orage and Bennett's further progress in the Work.
In the context of Barbara Hort's Unholy Hungers, a person with a missing father archetype would possibly be vulnerable to the
a) masculine vampire if he grows up feeling disempowered and looking for role models
b) feminine vampire if he grows up with an exaggerated confidence on his own abilities to take charge and solve other's problems (and get praised/adored for doing it) - osit
Quoting patterson
If a child is forced to take over emotional responsibilities unsuitable for his age due to the unavailability of a father figure (due to absence or incompetence), and specially if the child is able to somewhat "succeed" in that role, it is quite possible that there are deep-rooted effects on the personality of the child. On the good side, he is perhaps going to be self-sufficient, self-driven and resilient and would appear to others as a strong and dependable person. On the downside, there are likely to be control issues arising from an exaggerated sense of self-importance which makes it difficult to be completely open and submit to another person's will - which seemed to be a requirement for Uspenskii, Orage and Bennett's further progress in the Work.
In the context of Barbara Hort's Unholy Hungers, a person with a missing father archetype would possibly be vulnerable to the
a) masculine vampire if he grows up feeling disempowered and looking for role models
b) feminine vampire if he grows up with an exaggerated confidence on his own abilities to take charge and solve other's problems (and get praised/adored for doing it) - osit
gotogo
Jedi Master
obyvatel,
I found the page, which is p239.
It is fascinating! I will read the whole book.
I read Patterson's 'Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff "Phenomenon"' in Japanese while I am still in 'Fellowship of Friends' but at that time I did not feel he is objective form my inside point of view. Maybe because of this previous impression, I had not read "Struggle Of The Magicians" through although I got it recently because of the thread.
But it is time to read it now (it may be a good idea to read 'Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff "Phenomenon"' again in English also...)! :)
I found the page, which is p239.
It is fascinating! I will read the whole book.
I read Patterson's 'Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff "Phenomenon"' in Japanese while I am still in 'Fellowship of Friends' but at that time I did not feel he is objective form my inside point of view. Maybe because of this previous impression, I had not read "Struggle Of The Magicians" through although I got it recently because of the thread.
But it is time to read it now (it may be a good idea to read 'Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff "Phenomenon"' again in English also...)! :)
Buddy said:
My relationship with my father was also constrained. He was captured by the Japanese at the fall of Singapore and was in Changi prison camp for three and a half years. The experience changed him as you might imagine. I was the youngest of three children and the only boy. He was incredibly good with his hands, he built the family house and most of the furniture, he could do almost anything with wood or metal and his hobby was electronics. He used these things to isolate himself. He had a workshop and hobby room under the house (it was a Queensland house and built on 8 ft concrete stumps) and it was his habit to retire there after dinner every night and all day on the weekend. He tried teaching me woodwork once but he discovered I was not gifted in that direction, couldn't cut a straight line to save myself, and he quickly lost interest.
He was emotionally distant, severe and to me often seemed angry. I don't recall him ever hugging me or telling me he loved me. He never played with us children, ever. He didn't seem to know how to relax and he dressed semi formally if the family ever went out somewhere. I attended a Catholic boys school starting when I was 9. They were big on sport - cricket and rugby - and I think in my class I was the only child who had never played cricket, never been shown how to bat or to bowl, never handled a football. My self esteem was very low and as a consequence school was a literal hell for me.
He was also extremely judgmental. I have memories of him telling me at various times that "I was a silly little boy", "a clumsy fool" a stupid child". At one stage my first wife left me temporarily, (by this stage he had become a pentecostal) and he was very supportive. After we had reconciled, about a year later I could not take any more abuse so I left my wife and suddenly I was the worst mongrel and a sinner and going against god.
He died from hepatitis related conditions (caused during his POW experience) about 15 years ago. But when all is said and done, I have no doubt he was severely damaged as POW, and I think he did the best he could. He was not a vindictive man, just didn't seem to know any other way to be
It would be fair to say that it took me quite a while to work out that there were things that I was good at, that I excelled at
theos
The Living Force
It was my intention to post in this thread when it was first introduced by GotoGo but my childhood hurts from a lack of what I perceived as a "meaningful" relationship with my father prevented me from doing so. My father lived across town from me but I remember very little interaction with him when I was a small child. I do particularly remember his telling me that he would come to pick me up but never showing and I would wait and wait on our front porch for him. It wasn't until I was about age 13 that he introduced me to his family. They hadn't known I existed prior to that. Since that time there were some hurtful interactions with him that stayed with me to this day. However, most of our interactions have been okay, just a bit strained -- at least on my part. I just never felt comfortable around him and tried to keep our meetings brief and infrequent. I still have a hard time calling him "Dad". In the last year or so my father has been making attempts to get closer to me. At first my resistance to this was obvious, even to myself. However, in re-examining my life, I know that this is an issue I must deal with and I find that I am getting more involved.
After attending a family reunion and getting closer to cousins on my father's side I've come across some information about him that explains some things for me and eases the sting of the past hurt. I knew that my father was a Vietnam vet --I was born after he returned -- but I never knew the details. My cousins told me of some experiences my father relayed to them of his time in Vietnam and it seemed quite traumatic to say the least. He was likely shellshocked/suffering from PTSD.
An excuse? No, but it can factor into an explanation. Since learning this info just a few weeks ago I feel the resentment easing. (This could have a lot to do with the breathing/meditation as well. ;)) My father and I have never talked about our relationship, mostly our conversations deal with day to day topics. Maybe we will have in-depth discussions in the future. Maybe we won't. However, I'm not a little girl anymore standing on the front porch scanning the passing cars to see if it's him. It's time to let go of the hurt and clear the emotional blockages from the past. I look forward to seeing what happens.
Thanks for starting this thread.
After attending a family reunion and getting closer to cousins on my father's side I've come across some information about him that explains some things for me and eases the sting of the past hurt. I knew that my father was a Vietnam vet --I was born after he returned -- but I never knew the details. My cousins told me of some experiences my father relayed to them of his time in Vietnam and it seemed quite traumatic to say the least. He was likely shellshocked/suffering from PTSD.
An excuse? No, but it can factor into an explanation. Since learning this info just a few weeks ago I feel the resentment easing. (This could have a lot to do with the breathing/meditation as well. ;)) My father and I have never talked about our relationship, mostly our conversations deal with day to day topics. Maybe we will have in-depth discussions in the future. Maybe we won't. However, I'm not a little girl anymore standing on the front porch scanning the passing cars to see if it's him. It's time to let go of the hurt and clear the emotional blockages from the past. I look forward to seeing what happens.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Nautilus
The Force is Strong With This One
Thanks for starting this thread, GotoGo.
I find it a coincidence to be reading this thread, since I was thinking of the same issues only a few hours ago, sitting by myself in a coffee shop. I find it somewhat disturbing that my negative emotions are particularly strong after I've had a few drinks- it seems to be one of the ways to actually reflect upon myself! :(
I can certainly relate to your experiences. I think it is quite typical in Asian families to have close relations with extended families. My case is a bit different as I live with my nuclear family only, but my father had to live under one roof with six other siblings. It is no wonder he hadn't received the fatherly support one deserves. My grandfather was a businessman who spent most of his life providing for the family, therefore was constantly traveling around, providing no emotional support to my father. My grandmother was also too busy providing for the family. I think as a result, my father was largely isolated in terms of parental support.
These thoughts have been quite strong with me in the past few months, especially after reading the narcissist book. Like many of you, I lack a "meaningful" relationship with my father. Even when I am out dining with my father alone, there is a silence between us that I no longer consider awkward. Like Buddy, I have few emotional support from my dad, no one to show me the ropes during my childhood and adolescence.
However, I do feel my father cares, but he just does not know how to do so because he himself was never given that form of expressive love. What he does know well is his involvement in business (perhaps this is learnt from my grandfather?), and the only lengthy discussions we've had are related to my business and future career. I'm deeply saddened by this, and feel I am going through a similar path. I perceive myself to be in many ways similar to my father.
I have yet to attempt the breathing program. For some reasons, I am stalling my initiation with the mediation program, but this is certainly a motivation to start doing it. Any ways, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm grateful I can finally express these thoughts to people who are on the same line!
I find it a coincidence to be reading this thread, since I was thinking of the same issues only a few hours ago, sitting by myself in a coffee shop. I find it somewhat disturbing that my negative emotions are particularly strong after I've had a few drinks- it seems to be one of the ways to actually reflect upon myself! :(
I can certainly relate to your experiences. I think it is quite typical in Asian families to have close relations with extended families. My case is a bit different as I live with my nuclear family only, but my father had to live under one roof with six other siblings. It is no wonder he hadn't received the fatherly support one deserves. My grandfather was a businessman who spent most of his life providing for the family, therefore was constantly traveling around, providing no emotional support to my father. My grandmother was also too busy providing for the family. I think as a result, my father was largely isolated in terms of parental support.
These thoughts have been quite strong with me in the past few months, especially after reading the narcissist book. Like many of you, I lack a "meaningful" relationship with my father. Even when I am out dining with my father alone, there is a silence between us that I no longer consider awkward. Like Buddy, I have few emotional support from my dad, no one to show me the ropes during my childhood and adolescence.
However, I do feel my father cares, but he just does not know how to do so because he himself was never given that form of expressive love. What he does know well is his involvement in business (perhaps this is learnt from my grandfather?), and the only lengthy discussions we've had are related to my business and future career. I'm deeply saddened by this, and feel I am going through a similar path. I perceive myself to be in many ways similar to my father.
I have yet to attempt the breathing program. For some reasons, I am stalling my initiation with the mediation program, but this is certainly a motivation to start doing it. Any ways, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm grateful I can finally express these thoughts to people who are on the same line!
gotogo
Jedi Master
A few days ago, I watched a move titled "Life as a House".
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_as_a_house
I found the theme of this movie is somehow indicating how important to have "the Good Father archetype" at puberty.
Also I am now speculating if Gurdjieff's 'Intent' for writing "Meetings with Remarkable Men" included this theme.
I always thought this book was exceptional compare to other Forth Way books because it does not seem so 'esoteric' at all.
But I felt a certain emotion when I read this book for the 1st time, which I thought Gurdjieff was in fact indicating very important aspect of the Work.
Flashgordonv, chachachick and Eddie, thank you for sharing your experience too! :)
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_as_a_house
I found the theme of this movie is somehow indicating how important to have "the Good Father archetype" at puberty.
Also I am now speculating if Gurdjieff's 'Intent' for writing "Meetings with Remarkable Men" included this theme.
I always thought this book was exceptional compare to other Forth Way books because it does not seem so 'esoteric' at all.
But I felt a certain emotion when I read this book for the 1st time, which I thought Gurdjieff was in fact indicating very important aspect of the Work.
Flashgordonv, chachachick and Eddie, thank you for sharing your experience too! :)