Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program

Bo said:
This discussion on praying eventually comes down to your intent.

There is nothing wrong with praying for others, it's complete nonsens that one would have to ask for permission first to pray for someone, what is your intent on praying for others is what the question should be.

What is your INTENT on praying for others?

Praying is just that, it's praying. it's nothing more and nothing less.
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Have you ever wondered why the C's never pray for us? I do not think it is nonsense to ask for a permission and again I am reminded of how many times the C's have withhold answering as they would not interfere with our free will. We have to learn the lessons ourselves in the school of life.

As for the negative effects, then I am sorry not to be able to give the exact reference, but in the wave series Laura talks about this thing of sending love and light that is common in the new age movement with the clause of "for our highest will and good". My memory of this part in the wave was that the 4D STS took that as our permission for them to interfere and violate our free will. I paid attention as I used to be very much in the new age scene and send healing etc. Interestingly I also, like Oxajil thought that I was being very open and not putting any restrictions etc. but by and by I came to realise how little I knew about what was right for other people and their lessons and life paths. As a result I did less and less of sending healing to others, until it came to the point of sending or giving only when people asked me to. Again I am reminded of one of the transcripts where the C's answers one of Laura's questions about someone, by posing the question: "Have you ever heard of karma"? or something to that effect. In other words not to interfere with someone else's lessons unless they ask. By letting them ask or give permission, they are empowered. It comes from them. They reflect on it and say yes or no, and there in their very asking is the very seed of change.

Just a thought...
 
Oxajil said:
Endymion said:
My impression is that you want to be free to follow your feelings, your heart, and rely on an outside power to be your 'policeman', making sure that these prayers do not negatively affect others.
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How can a prayer negatively affect others? (not saying it can't, but I'm interested in how you think a prayer can do this?)
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I think it has to do with intent, both conscious and unconscious.

Bo said:
What is your INTENT on praying for others?
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Consciously we might want the other person to be healed or protected, or to receive blessings of the DCM. But what is our unconscious intent? All kinds of fears and narcissistic programs of which we can be completely unaware are lurking in the unconscious mind, and these can drive our desire to pray for others. I think that until the unconscious mind is cleared of programs then a prayer can have a negative effect on another because the intent is polluted.

Is there some kind of filter in the ethers that catches the negative parts of a prayer, and only allows the positive parts to reach the person? I don't think there is. If there was, that would violate the 'rules of the game' down here in 3D.

In The Wave Book 1, Laura describes how she worked through seemingly endless programs and thought loops in her own unconscious mind, not to mention a seemingly endless procession of astral entities, before she achieved contact with the Cs. This I think gives us a hint that can be applied to learning to pray with our unconscious, conscious and soul intent in harmony.

The other point is very well put in this quote from ISOTM:

ISOTM said:
Turgenev wrote somewhere that all ordinary prayers can be reduced to one: "Lord, make it so that twice two be not four."
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Note that Turgenev said ' . . . all ordinary prayers . . . '

Bo said:
There is nothing wrong with praying for others, it's complete nonsens that one would have to ask for permission first to pray for someone, what is your intent on praying for others is what the question should be.
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Asking permission first is simple courtesy and respect for the other's free will, osit.

StandingOnTheEdge said:
Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?
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Perhaps I'm attributing too much power to prayer :/ But perhaps the danger lies in the cumulative and sustained negative effect of thousands or millions of prayers asking that 'twice two be not four'. Asking permission is a step towards objectivity.

StandingOnTheEdge said:
If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
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It could be a form of protection, in the sense that if the impediment is removed prematurely without the person having learned and grown from their own struggle to remove it, they may be overwhelmed by seeing something they are not ready for.

Thanks for the Gurdjieff quotes, Bud. They're most interesting.
 
StandingOnTheEdge said:
This discussion of permission and prayer has elicited a couple of questions:

Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?

If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
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Regarding questions, another one is, what about cases where person is asking or perhaps also giving permission not by words but by actions or interaction? For example, if someone is sharing about an upcoming surgery, or perhaps someone is sharing about the crisis in their lives but without explicitly asking for a prayer or even assistance in any way. We say that we hold these people in our thoughts, or perhaps we won't even say anything, but will keep them in our heart. So wouldn't thinking about the person and wishing them well and sending them support in what ever way it will manifest itself constitutes as a prayer, even if "non verbal" one?

Added: What I am wondering is about the difference between the strength of support if you keep one in your thoughts, and prayers that might violate someone's free will. Would keeping someone in your heart would necessarily require a request?
 
StandingOnTheEdge said:
This discussion of permission and prayer has elicited a couple of questions:

Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?
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I think this has a lot to do with the state of being and how many 'i's are fighting for domination. This leads to what Approaching infinity wrote a few pages back:

Approaching Infinity said:
Gertrudes said:
I think that you might be answering to my previous question here. There is a difference between anticipating, and feeling and incorporating the prayer's content into one's being. It is a tricky issue. Perhaps it has partly to do with the nature of the wish, combined with how opened one is in the present moment to the content of what he/she is praying.
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Well, one thing to consider is "wishing" itself. Here's what Gurdjieff wrote in Life Is Real:

Although for the exact definition of the second of these human
impulses in the contemporary English language there is a word, namely
"wish," it is nevertheless employed by you Americans, as well as by the
English people themselves, only in order to vary, of course
unconsciously, the degree of the expression of that so to say "slavish
impulse" for which there are, particularly in this language, a multitude
of words as, for example, "like," "want," "need," "desire" and so on. ...

When "I wish"—I feel with my whole being that I wish, and can
wish. This does not mean that I want, that I need, that I like or, lastly,
that I desire. No. "I wish." I never like, never want, I do not desire
anything and I do not need anything—all this is slavery; if "I wish"
something, I must like it, even if I do not like it. I can wish to like it,
because "I can."

I wish—I feel with my whole body that I wish.

I wish—because I can wish.
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But before one can truly wish (and here I think wish has something to do with having a true will, not a will influenced by programs), one needs knowledge and being. Just like Gurdjieff advised to "remember to self-remember" (because self-remembering isn't possible at first), maybe one must "wish to Wish".
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So yes there can be that much power within you, but whether you have access to it is another question. As AI wrote, one needs knowledge and being.
Bud put some good quotes from ISOTM that highlights this:
Bud said:
Gurdjieff has a few useful ideas on the subject as well, OSIT:

"The prayer of subjective man, that is, of man number one, number two, and number three, can give only subjective results, namely, self-consolation, self-suggestion, self-hypnosis. It cannot give objective results."

"But cannot prayer in general give objective results?" asked one of those present.

"I have already said, it depends upon whose prayer," G. replied.

"One must learn to pray, just as one must learn everything else. Whoever knows how to pray and is able to concentrate in the proper way, his prayer can give results. But it must be understood that there are different prayers and that their results are different.
ISOTM, 307
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StandingOnTheEdge said:
If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
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I think it is also important to question what one is seeing. How do I know that something is blocking this person's progress and how do I know what is best for that person?
 
Oxajil said:
Ana said:
Oxajil said:
I am very scared, yes.
And alone, too, I needed DCM a LOT when I was young and only in the last few years have I been able to be more independent. DCM has been a very important figure in my life and I feel like I can ask anything from Her, but I realise more and more that I don't need to ask many things, that I can get those things myself you know? So I think what y'all say makes a lot of sense, but I'm still fearful, I still need that protection over me and over those I love. I still fully have faith in DCM that everything will go how it will go, but I simply need to say my prayers to give Hope to myself, to give myself that kind of strength (of being free of fears) I can't fully give myself (but I'm slowly learning to!). As I said it's a way I express certain feelings and thoughts.
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What are you afraid of?
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I'm afraid of getting hurt and afraid of others getting hurt. And when I say hurt, I mean mostly physically hurt. That's my main fear.
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You mean you are constantly afraid of physical damage or there are situations that triger it?
 
As I see it praying is a calling to the higher (inside and outside ourselves) or Divine Cosmic Mind, so we become graciously blessed with its presence, not as something alien, distant and unattainable but as the profound truth of our being, our common being, the reality of our being.

So praying and understanding (faculty of being) go hand in hand.
Then, maybe the power of prayer depends on our understanding.

"If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
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Thank you for your replies so far.

I am getting a sense that there just may be great power in one's intentions/prayers. That in order for one to evoke the intention/prayer appropriately, one must be developed in the Work enough to externally consider the object of our prayer, and also the necessity to objectively assess the person in our intention enough to discern whether the situation is blocking that person's progress or if the situation is protecting that person.

I am finding that EE is helping to clear my emotional center, and once it is cleared, my prayer is most powerful indeed. But until I have cleared out my own 'house', my prayer may actually be of hindrance rather than help.

Having been a Reiki practitioner for almost 4 years, I am finding that it does work in so many subtle and yet profound ways. As I practice EE, it subjectively appears that my Reiki becomes more and more effective as I polish my heart. And if I have cleared my heart to the point of connecting with the higher intellectual center and then DCM, maybe I really don't need to practice Reiki.
 
Asking permission first is simple courtesy and respect for the other's free will, osit.
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If you believe that asking permission is the right way of praying, then by all means do it. Everybody has their own way of ''praying'' and praying is just that, praying.

Here are all the sessions(that i found) about prayers which might be usefull. I will check tommorrow if bringers of the dawn had anything to say about it.

Q: (L) Is there any special power or advantage in praying in the
name of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, if he didn't die and release his spirit into the earth
plane,
how is this power conferred?
A: Prayers go to him.
Q: (L) And what does he do when he hears the prayers?
A: Determines their necessity against background of individual soul
development.
Q: (L) You said that when a person prays to Jesus that he makes
some sort of a decision, is that correct?
A: Yes.
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Q: (RC) Is the word "Jesus" derivative of Isis or Zeus?
A: Neither, Jesus is moniker only.
Q: (RC) What is moniker? What do you mean? Don't you have to
pray in the name of Jesus for protection?
A: Prayers are not necessary for protection once channel, or more
appropriately, conduit is properly grooved!
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: (T) We are observing you. (J) Yeah. And? (F) I think what they
mean is, when you can channel as I can, because I channel almost
continuously, this has a good side and a bad side. Now, the good
side you know. The bad side you don't know. The bad side is very
hard to live with. I cannot even describe the state of my mind. (L) I
would like to have practical advice and guidance on what we can to
do to fend off or prevent psychic attack. We know that knowledge
and awareness is important, but any words of wisdom or advance things that can be
given would be appreciated.
A: Daily prayer helps.
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Q: (L) Okay guys, you are telling us we are under attack, you are
telling us it is going to get worse, you are telling us that maybe some
of these other guys can help us out, what can we do in the
meantime?

A: Prayers help but more is needed.
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Q: (L) I have been reading recently about the shrine at Lourdes
where the Virgin Mary supposedly appeared to Bernadette
Soubirous...
A: Energy focusing center.
Q: (L) What kind of energy is focused there?
A: Positive due to consistent prayer patternings.
Q: (L) Okay, what appeared to Bernadette?
A: Imaging energy consciousness wave.
Q: (L) Was this image out of her own mind?
A: Close.
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A: Ritual drains directly to Lizard beings.
Q: (L) Even our saying of the Lord's prayer?
A: It is okay to pray. Why do you think organized religion is
obsessed with rituals?
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Q: (PZ) Okay, let's say that I have a little child, who is dying of
leukemia, and I am praying with everything in me, and the child dies
anyway. I don't get it. What's the deal here?
A: Wrong. If child dies, that is your lesson profile.
Q: (PZ) Well, why isn't my lesson profile with this particular situation
that is going on in my life right now, why isn't it continuing? I thought
that maybe I need to...
A: Is it over yet, Pat?
Q: (PZ) No, it isn't over yet, but...

A: So, what is your question, if it is not yet concluded?
Q: (PZ) Can you feel what I am thinking?
A: Yes.
Q: (PZ) So, why do I need to ask?
A: Because we never interfere with free will.
Q: (PZ) If I continue to pray, things will continue to get better?
A: Things will stay on their intended course.
Q: (PZ) Are you telling me that my life has been predestined?
A: No. If you continue to pray, there is no chance of your lessons
being interrupted or deferred. Clarify.
Q: (PZ) Well, that sounds like it is going to continue, it is not going to stop.
A: No, clarify means to solidify your understanding of the answer.
Q: (PZ) Well, I don't understand. (L) I think it is pretty clear that the
things you are experiencing are part of the lessons.
A: Whatever that is... i.e.: que sera sera.
Q: (PZ) But then, we are back to pre-destiny?
A: No, lessons.
Q: (PZ) Well, how many damn lessons do you have to get?
A: As many "damn" lessons as you need!
Q: (S) What about the prayers that are directed to Jesus?
A: Jesus is one of us in "special service" sector.
Q: (L) Like a "green beret?"
A: No, more like a "beige beret."
Q: (L) What is a 'beige beret?'
A: Just our term.
Q: (PZ) Well, I have just always wondered if this praying business is
a bunch of malarkey. (L) Oh, no. (PZ) If I pray a rosary, I am praying
to the Virgin Mary.
Who is she? Where is she?
A: "She" is here too.
Q: (PZ) Does that prayer go directly to her and does she then send
you out to do whatever?
A: She is not really a she. And when you write to "Ann Landers,"
does she really see it? And Good night.
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Q: (V) As we practice Reiki, how do we know if we are doing the
person more harm than good? How do we decide if we are going to
make them sicker or better?
A: Ask if they are suffering from infection.
Q: What if they don't know? There are a lot of times that a person
doesn't know.

A: True, but odds are in your favor.
Q: (V) So the viruses cannot be treated by etherical healing? Is
there any method that will work other than Reiki?
A: Prayer.
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One way to look at prayer might be to pray for/in oneself in strict context of how one understands the Work at that point in time. In this sense, one prays for All through what I view as two paths. One being service to others through the efforts of "cleaning the machine/mirror" and the resulting fruit. The other being a more directly empathic connection/compassion to/for All. Just another viewpoint ...
 
Keit said:
StandingOnTheEdge said:
This discussion of permission and prayer has elicited a couple of questions:

Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?

If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
Click to expand...

Regarding questions, another one is, what about cases where person is asking or perhaps also giving permission not by words but by actions or interaction? For example, if someone is sharing about an upcoming surgery, or perhaps someone is sharing about the crisis in their lives but without explicitly asking for a prayer or even assistance in any way. We say that we hold these people in our thoughts, or perhaps we won't even say anything, but will keep them in our heart. So wouldn't thinking about the person and wishing them well and sending them support in what ever way it will manifest itself constitutes as a prayer, even if "non verbal" one?
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well. I have heard of prayers being meaningless but to actually have a negative effect on the party intended? As for asking someone for their permission to pray for them, I can't understand this either. Why would someone even mention the troubles or trauma in their lives if they weren't asking for your support at some level?
 
Pete02 said:
Keit said:
StandingOnTheEdge said:
This discussion of permission and prayer has elicited a couple of questions:

Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?

If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
Click to expand...

Regarding questions, another one is, what about cases where person is asking or perhaps also giving permission not by words but by actions or interaction? For example, if someone is sharing about an upcoming surgery, or perhaps someone is sharing about the crisis in their lives but without explicitly asking for a prayer or even assistance in any way. We say that we hold these people in our thoughts, or perhaps we won't even say anything, but will keep them in our heart. So wouldn't thinking about the person and wishing them well and sending them support in what ever way it will manifest itself constitutes as a prayer, even if "non verbal" one?
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well. I have heard of prayers being meaningless but to actually have a negative effect on the party intended? As for asking someone for their permission to pray for them, I can't understand this either. Why would someone even mention the troubles or trauma in their lives if they weren't asking for your support at some level?
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extrapolating 2d , 3D interaction is much easier to explain this. If you imagine human police is also responsible for animals( infact that is true). If dog is on the street shouting for help, does police respond ?. It depends on many factors. Did the police understand it or not, is it his duty or not, is it as per his rules or not, is he busy or not, does he wants to help or not, who else competing for it, does he care for the dog or not , like that million things can motivate or demotivate him . I believe same thing applies here for humans. for Humans, responsible 4D STO can be like police, so does 4D STS can be 4D psychopaths and 6D STO is like 4D STO police's god ( word god is used in a loose sense) and rules they follow are free will . 4D STO God has much more power and control over 4D STS controlled our 3D than 4D STS. Atleast this is my understanding
 
As for as my update is concerned, I am consistently doing EE before sleep for some weeks, though heat also increased proportionately. so, there is no Magical things happening. simply moving along.
 
Ana said:
You mean you are constantly afraid of physical damage or there are situations that triger it?
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Depends on where I am. If I'm home, the fear is not present, but very low. When I'm outside it is very present, and I recite the POTS and pray to DCM, or I make myself feel comfortable by saying "God is with us", at the same being vigilant.
But this fear has reduced. You could say I'm afraid of things like; being kidnapped and all the awful things that might go with it. I think the fear might also come from my mom since she is overprotective and sometimes talks about the dangers out there, that I should be careful.

I didn't have this problem when we were living in a village. When we moved to the city, it came (I was about 10 years old). The city was unknown, it was big etc. it was scary for me (even though I was excited about moving). So the first few years I was afraid to go outside alone, even if it were a shop that's like not even 5 min. away. But now I'm a lot less afraid.

I still would rather not go alone to places I haven't been before. Or anywhere when it's dark outside.
 
Aeneas said:
As for the negative effects, then I am sorry not to be able to give the exact reference, but in the wave series Laura talks about this thing of sending love and light that is common in the new age movement with the clause of "for our highest will and good". My memory of this part in the wave was that the 4D STS took that as our permission for them to interfere and violate our free will. I paid attention as I used to be very much in the new age scene and send healing etc.
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I've read that too, and that is different than praying with an open mind and good intent. Love&Light people give mostly Nothing to Life, they assume their sending will change everything. It will not, for there is free will. They also expect a certain outcome.
If you send "love and light" if that is how you would like to term something you are doing, and at some level, at the same time, you open the possibility that Nothing will happen from this act (you don't expect something, you don't anticipate), and you Work in Life and Give to Life as well, ..then that's much better than blindly believing that your sending will change something in a way you want it to change.

There is a difference between believing and having faith.

But I don't see the way I pray as giving ''love&light''. I see it as an expression of certain feelings and thoughts and/or of giving/asking for support, if possible.

Aeneas said:
Interestingly I also, like Oxajil thought that I was being very open and not putting any restrictions etc.
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You misunderstood. I didn't say you were being open. I don't know if you were.

Aeneas said:
but by and by I came to realise how little I knew about what was right for other people and their lessons and life paths. As a result I did less and less of sending healing to others, until it came to the point of sending or giving only when people asked me to. Again I am reminded of one of the transcripts where the C's answers one of Laura's questions about someone, by posing the question: "Have you ever heard of karma"? or something to that effect. In other words not to interfere with someone else's lessons unless they ask. By letting them ask or give permission, they are empowered. It comes from them. They reflect on it and say yes or no, and there in their very asking is the very seed of change.
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I still don't understand how praying can interfere with someone else's lessons.
 
Endymion said:
I think it has to do with intent, both conscious and unconscious.

Consciously we might want the other person to be healed or protected, or to receive blessings of the DCM. But what is our unconscious intent? All kinds of fears and narcissistic programs of which we can be completely unaware are lurking in the unconscious mind, and these can drive our desire to pray for others. I think that until the unconscious mind is cleared of programs then a prayer can have a negative effect on another because the intent is polluted.
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Not necessarily. Does that mean that my intent is polluted day in and day out? Until the day I die?
No, I think a good intent comes from that part of you that is sincere. The strongest prayer ever was when I was laying down in my bed, crying and begging for God to show me the whereabouts of our cat who was missing, just before sleeping I asked him to show me where he was in my dreams. That whole night I was dreaming about him, ...and he was there, exactly, where I saw him in my dreams. Was my intent polluted? I think my request came ''from the heart''. I also asked DCM to watch over him every day.
I also opened up the possibility that my prayer would not be ''answered'', which I would have accepted. Also, I actively went out searching for him, every day. So it isn't like I didn't do anything, and just asked for help. Sometimes I think that Praying goes with Doing.

Was it better for me to just search for him and have faith in DCM that everything will go the way it should go? I don't know if that is ''a better thing to do'', But I do think that both ways are just fine, if you feel more comfortable doing just that, then you should definitely do that.

Praying could also be seen as an expression of you simply caring about another.
Of course, some kind of ego will be involved when you pray, where is it not? We are STS.

If you allow your prayers not to have an effect when you open the possibility that your intent might be polluted, knowing DCM knows best, then how can you violate any free will?

Endymion said:
Is there some kind of filter in the ethers that catches the negative parts of a prayer, and only allows the positive parts to reach the person? I don't think there is. If there was, that would violate the 'rules of the game' down here in 3D.
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Negative and positive parts of a prayer?
 
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