Running away from problems

Psalehesost · May 24, 2009

SAO, your post served as one of the major things leading me to direct the focus of my Work towards where it now goes at present.

SAO said:
Hope that helps, don't forget that life should be fun, and if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. Yes, challenges, learning, and facing your own wounded self is fun, although uncomfortable at times. PMA dude! Life is short, how many years do you want to waste being so stifled you cannot even move?

"So stifled you cannot even move" describes me fairly well. Stiflement is - and to an even greater extent used to be - one of my biggest problems. With the OCD-ish problem I used to have (has near-completely faded with the working efforts throughout the previous year), I became unable to focus on things that I personally cared for more than during pretty short times of mental peace that came and went sporadically throughout the day. That stiflement is gone, but I have others remaining, most significantly: Emotional stiflement (current focus, now making progress - though far from done), social stiflement (will go into this below).

I don't have much of a problem with outwards-directed social program behavior, such as that mentioned by abcdefghiJoerg (nor does my ego care so much anymore about what others think). Inwardly, however, there has been (it remains to be seen how this has changed with the latest emotional work) tons of inhibition.

SAO said:
My advice would be to go out more and spend time talking to people, getting to know new people [...]

This idea (which I've intellectually come to realize is a good idea for the challenge and learning opportunity, though I still don't feel it, being - when at a distance to carrying it out - completely emotionally indifferent) is very foreign to my psyche. I don't really have any idea how to go about going out and talking to people. There's zero experience sans earlier half of childhood to reference, because I've never since "gone out" for the purpose (well, back then I just sort-of did it) of talking to or getting to know people. When I do talk to people I don't know, I pretty much only "follow the flow", sometimes going against inhibition for the sake of accomplishing some definite task I need to get done right then. And when I do get to know new people, which happens rarely, it just sort-of happens when someone takes up interaction with me, which I then follow semi-passively with relative ease.

Well, theoretically, it is very easy to model a general idea - but to carry it out would feel outright bizarre!

Unlike the original poster, I guess I'm not running away from problems, but rather sitting at home away from something I don't genuinely recognize as a problem, except theoretically when referring to goals of development.

Gawan · May 27, 2009

Hi,

I like to give an update about this issue and what I observed with the new knowledge I got from the other readers (thanks again by the way).
Recently I did a chat with the friend/situation I described, and she has been writing, that she found a new boyfriend and that she is really lucky right now. Suddenly my machine caused trouble within myself, where jealousy was the trigger…
I tried to observe the program and could right to her back, that I'm really lucky for her (which at this moment felt absolutely right to write this, with no irony and sarcasm).
The next days a program came back and back again, to reject her, to write her something negative, to run away: "I don't like to stay in contact with you, good bye, good days we had" and so on, but I resisted to write anything at all to her, which then led to a depression. But there have been moments where I could see, that this program is all about internal consideration, all about me and how I feel.

Okay, so this program did cause chaos within myself, but I'm really lucky that I didn't react to it. In a way I have done all my years before: to write back and cause trouble in other persons. And it also happened to me that I took a break, so to speak, "I managed this program, no worries" and became less aware of what has been going on, and so this program has been back again.
But what has been strange, that these negative thoughts to write her back, to imagine to do something, felt like pleasure, has this something to do with suffering?

And another thing, yes it is very exciting to go out and to live and go too into situations where I don't feel that comfortable, where I can observe some parts of myself.

obyvatel · May 28, 2009

abcdefghiJoerg said:
But what has been strange, that these negative thoughts to write her back, to imagine to do something, felt like pleasure, has this something to do with suffering?

Could be that the internal discomfort caused by this situation is relieved by the thought of "getting back" at the perceived cause of the discomfort. The relief of the internal friction would seem pleasurable as it would restore the status quo for the false personality - osit.
By the way, have you considered the possibility that the person concerned is trying to provoke you in some way? Though the Work goal is to use such provocations (whether deliberately induced from external sources or coming from the internal predator's mind) as shocks to know more about our selves, still this may be worth a thought as the specific dynamics of the situation may result in a different choice of the response.
fwiw

RedFox · May 28, 2009

abcdefghiJoerg said:
But what has been strange, that these negative thoughts to write her back, to imagine to do something, felt like pleasure, has this something to do with suffering?

I think obyvatel could be right. It did also remind me of a few other things (perhaps there all right/all the same thing?)

I'm unable to find an appropriate quote at the moment, but from a narcisitically wounded point of view it could be that this is what you where taught (as a child) 'love' was, or perhaps how you got attention/'love' from your parents (perhaps your mother?). To be rejecting, because you yourself where rejected??
One of the signs of narcissistic (and pathological) thinking is a twisting of it. How are you doing with the big 4 books?

It also reminded me of 'wrong thinking' from this thread: Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument

Now we speak once more of observing talking. All rules are about talking, practically speaking, and how to deal with wrong talking. It is necessary to observe inner talking and from where it is coming. Wrong inner talking is the breeding-ground not only of many future unpleasant states but also of wrong outer talking. You know that there is in the Work what is called the practise of inner silence. The practise and meaning of inner silence is like this: first, it must be about something quite distinct and definite; and second, it is like not touching it. That is, you cannot practise inner silence in any vague general way, save perhaps as an experiment for a time. But you can practise it rigidly in regard to some distinct and definite thing, something you know and see quite clearly. Someone once asked: "Is practising inner silence the same as not letting something come into your mind?" The answer is no. It is not the same. What you are practising inner silence about is already in the mind and you must be aware of it, but you must not touch it with your inner speech, your inner tongue. Your outer literal tongue likes to touch sore places, as when a tooth hurts. So does your inner tongue. But if it does, the sore thing in your mind flows into your inner speech and unwraps itself as inner talking in every direction. You have noticed of course that inner talking always goes on in negative states and that it coins many unpleasant phrases, which suddenly find expression in outer talking, perhaps long after. In the Work we are told that it is necessary to be careful about wrong outer talking at first, and, later on, about wrong inner talking. Actually, wrong outer talking is mostly due to wrong inner talking. Wrong inner talking, particularly venomous and evil inner talking, and so on, makes a mess within, like excrement. They are all different forms of lying and this is why they have such strength and persistence. Lies are always more powerful than truth because they can hurt. If you observe wrong inner talking you will notice it is only half-truths, or truths connected in the wrong order, or with something added or left out. In other words, it is simply lying to oneself. If you say: "Is this quite true?" it may stop it, but it will find another set of lies. Eventually you must dislike it. If you enjoy it, you will never lessen its power. It is not enough to dislike liking it: you must dislike it.

I've read more on this 'secret pleasure' aspect of programs, but can't quite find the quote I was looking for, however I did find a better one from one of obyvatel's recent posts about Passive Anger

Passive Anger/Aggression
Passive aggressive traits lead to an indirect and circuitous way of expressing anger. Simon (quoting Millon) describes the passive aggressive (PA) as a primarily "negativistic" and ambivalent" person who is a chronic procrastinator and unable to decide firmly on a primarily "dependent or independent style of coping". This could be a non-pathological self-defense mechanism arising in the face of hostile authority (eg narcissistic family) to begin with but can become pathological in later life.
Behavioral Traits
Procrastination, chronic lateness, chronic forgetfulness, nagging, teasing, sarcasm, insincere apologies (accompanied with "All I said was ......" or "I only meant ....") are some behavioral traits. Passive anger can lead a person to seek advice and guidance and then to reject sensible suggestions experiencing a secret pleasure from that rejection. They are extremely frustrating people to live with who constantly annoy and provoke people around them thus experiencing the anger they cannot express themselves through projection.

I think that 'secret pleasure' (as far as I understand it) can be experienced in any kind of form at any thing depending on how you where narcisitically wounded. It is probably quite a good clue as to where to look for the wound too!

As for pleasure from suffering (as discussed by the C's/Laura) I think this is more to do with learning and growth and that suffering can be applied to helping that learning/growth, which is pleasurable for those so inclined towards learning/growth. I do get occasional flashes of something that fits that, it is very odd!!....what it does highlight is that for some reason I 'think' (believe?) that learning/growth and suffering should not be pleasurable/easy!
The more I taste it however the more I want to learn/grow/suffer (eek?)....it has a sort of effortless quality.
Of course it may just be running a temperature from this cold!! :lol:

Gawan · May 29, 2009

obyvatel said:
Could be that the internal discomfort caused by this situation is relieved by the thought of "getting back" at the perceived cause of the discomfort. The relief of the internal friction would seem pleasurable as it would restore the status quo for the false personality - osit.

Yes, so it really felt like, to find the stimulation to write back and not only thinking about it. So -ego- has been struggling and trying to push me over.

obyvatel said:
By the way, have you considered the possibility that the person concerned is trying to provoke you in some way? Though the Work goal is to use such provocations (whether deliberately induced from external sources or coming from the internal predator's mind) as shocks to know more about our selves, still this may be worth a thought as the specific dynamics of the situation may result in a different choice of the response.

I thought about it, also during the situation there have been kind of flashes to see a little bit more clearly. Well as SAO has been writing I tried to be relaxed (self-esteem), which has been of great help, to have a point, to look at how I can be.

Redfox said:
One of the signs of narcissistic (and pathological) thinking is a twisting of it. How are you doing with the big 4 books?

Unfortunately until right now I haven't had the time to look back in some books, but I found now two interesting quotes:

Elan Golomb p.19 said:
When self-love depends on externals, on others' opinions of what you are and do, self is betrayed.

Elan Golomb p.205 said:
Negative reaction is an analytic phrase used to describe enjoyment of the imagined result of one's failure. Some people kill or attempt to kill themselves for such pleasure, reveling in the fantasy of their relatives weeping with guilt.

Redfox said:
As for pleasure from suffering (as discussed by the C's/Laura) I think this is more to do with learning and growth and that suffering can be applied to helping that learning/growth, which is pleasurable for those so inclined towards learning/growth. I do get occasional flashes of something that fits that, it is very odd!!....what it does highlight is that for some reason I 'think' (believe?) that learning/growth and suffering should not be pleasurable/easy!

I agree with you, and it makes now more sense with this explanation, otherwise it would not be called -the work- but -the holiday- :).

Joke beside.

Really thanks for both of you!

Running away from problems

Psalehesost

The Living Force

Gawan

Ambassador

obyvatel

The Living Force

RedFox

The Living Force

Gawan

Ambassador