Gurdjieff and the octave

Pryf said:

Also reading Fragments of an unknown teaching there is something very interesting, In the chapter XII in order to give the others a clear example of what the essence is He undertake an experiment on the separation of the personality and the essence, the results make clear its teaching but Ouspensky does not explain the method used, Does anyone know if it has something to do with Hypnosis?

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Pryf said:

...But there are still many things I failed to find parallels in other types of lessons and also to find in myself the related inherent truth.

Take the Ray of Creation as a succession of events, can be considered
as eighth. It is eighth in the downward direction of growth and differentiation.

I do not understand what has to do the eighth and how it works, Could someone explain it other way to see if I can understand? I'll be gratefull

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Pinkerton said:

Pryf said:

Also reading Fragments of an unknown teaching there is something very interesting, In the chapter XII in order to give the others a clear example of what the essence is He undertake an experiment on the separation of the personality and the essence, the results make clear its teaching but Ouspensky does not explain the method used, Does anyone know if it has something to do with Hypnosis?

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Yes, I believe G used hypnosis to bring out the two pupil's essence.

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Pryf said:

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods.

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In Search of the Miraculous said:

Conversations in groups continued as usual. Once Gurdjieff said that he wanted to
carry out an experiment on the separation of personality from essence. We
were all very interested because he had promised "experiments" for a long
time but till then we had seen nothing. I will not describe his methods, I
will merely describe the people whom he chose that first evening for the
experiment.

One was no longer young and was a man who occupied a fairly prominent
position in society. At our meetings he spoke much and often about himself,
his family, about Christianity, and about the events of the moment connected
with the war and with all possible kinds of "scandal" that had very much
disgusted him.

The other was younger. Many of us did not consider him to be a serious
person. Very often he played what is called the fool; or, on the other hand,
entered into endless formal arguments about some or other details of the
system without any relation whatever to the whole. It was very difficult to
understand him. He spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most
simple things, mixing up in a most impossible way different points of view
and words belonging to different categories and levels.

I pass over the beginning of the experiment.

We were sitting in the big drawing room.

The conversation went on as usual.

"Now observe," G. whispered to us.

The older of the two who was speaking heatedly about something suddenly
became silent in the middle of a sentence and seemed to sink into his chair
looking straight in front of him. At a sign from G. we continued to talk
without looking at him. The younger one began to listen to the talk and then
spoke himself. All of us looked at one another. His voice had become
different. He told us some observations about himself in a clear, simple,
and intelligible manner without superfluous words, without extravagances,
and without buffoonery. Then he became silent; he smoked a cigarette and was
obviously thinking of something. The first one sat still without moving, as
though shrunken into a ball.

"Ask him what he is thinking about," said G. quietly.

"I?" He lifted his head as though waking up when he was questioned. "About
nothing." He smiled weakly as though apologizing or as though he were
surprised at anyone asking him what he was thinking about.

"Well, you were talking about the war just now," said one of us, "about what
would happen if we made peace with the Germans; do you still think as you
did then?"

"I don't know really," he said in an uncertain voice. "Did I say that?"

"Yes, certainly, you just said that everyone was obliged to think about it,
that no one had the right not to think about it, and that no one had the
right to forget the war; everyone ought to have a definite opinion; yes or
no-for or against the war."

He listened as though he did not grasp what the questioner was saying.
"Yes?" he said. "How odd. I do not remember anything about it."

"But aren't you interested in it?"

"No, it does not interest me at all."

"Are you not thinking of the consequences of all that is now taking place,
of the results for Russia, for the whole of civilization?"

He shook his head as though with regret.

"I do not understand what you are talking about," he said, "it does not
interest me at all and I know nothing about it."

"Well then, you spoke before of your family. Would it not be very much
easier for you if they became interested in our ideas and joined the work?"

"Yes, perhaps," again in an uncertain voice. "But why should I think about
it?"

"Well, you said you were afraid of the gulf, as you expressed it, which was
growing between you and them."

No reply.

"But what do you think about it now?"

"I am not thinking about it at all."

"If you were asked what you would like, what would you say?"

Again a wondering glance-"I do not want anything."

"But think, what would you like?"

On the small table beside him there stood an unfinished glass of tea. He
gazed at it for a long time as though considering something. He glanced
around him twice, then again looked at the glass, and said in such a serious
voice and with such serious intonations that we all looked at one another:
"I think I should like some raspberry jam."

"Why are you questioning him?" said a voice from the corner which we hardly
recognized.

This was the second "experiment."

"Can you not see that he is asleep?"

"And you yourself?" asked one of us.

"I, on the contrary, have woken up."

"Why has he gone to sleep while you have woken up?"

"I do not know."

With this the experiment ended.

Neither of them remembered anything the next day. G. explained to us that
with the first man everything that constituted the subject of his ordinary
conversation, of his alarms and agitation, was in personality. And when his
personality was asleep practically nothing remained. In the personality of
the other there was also a great deal of undue talkativeness but behind the
personality there was an essence which knew as much as the personality and
knew it better, and when personality went to sleep essence took its place to
which it had a much greater right.

"Note that contrary to his custom he spoke very little," said G. "But he was
observing all of you and everything that was taking place, and nothing
escaped him."

"But of what use is it to him if he also does not remember?" said one of us.
"Essence remembers," said G., "personality has forgotten. And this was
necessary because otherwise personality would have perverted everything and
would have ascribed all this to itself."

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Pryf said:

Now matter you are new here ( me too) I appreciate your dedication and your response,
about the octave, still not clear for me although I understand the process of rise and fall in different vibrations of the consciousness but I cannot see the reason of each differentiation you have done in each state,

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anart said:

I think, in the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam", the situation which you appear to be referring, that some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion was used to put the personality 'to sleep' so the essence would come forward. At least this is my current understanding.

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Pryf said:

Yes that's exactly what I supposed Anart, I am surprised to see someone with the knowledge he had acquired
encouraging an inappropriate method to try to show themes which clearly become manifest when one has the
appropriate awareness.

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anart said:

I'm curious as to why you would assume it was an 'inappropriate method'?

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Pryf said:

I find difficult to answer your question, if someone would give me alcohol in order to prove something I will deny it, If someone would give alcohol to others to prove me something I will refuse to be witness of using other as if it were an experiment.

Alcohol hinders me correctly perceiving the body, make that the senses needed to see this reality get reduced, and I greatly appreciate inhabit a healthy body.

I understand that objectively what Gurdjieff look for was manifested, but I think that those of their students who saw what happened already covered this subject before, otherwise the experiment had not changed anything.

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Pryf said:

Take the Ray of Creation as a succession of events, can be considered
as eighth. It is eighth in the downward direction of growth and differentiation.

I do not understand what has to do the eighth and how it works, Could someone explain it other way to see if I can understand? I'll be gratefull

Click to expand...

Here I have somewhat modified an illustration of a Tibetan Stupa
(from The Mandala, by Martin Brauen (Shambhala 1997))
to compare it with a picture of Sacre Coeur
(from All Paris, by Giovanna Magi (Bonechi 1995).

The comparison is all the more vivid when
you realize that Sacre Coeur is atop Montmartre,
the Mountain of Martyrs
(named for St. Dionysius who was beheaded there around 258 AD),
the place where in 1871 hundreds of Communard Rebels
hid in the chalk mines, and were entombed there
when the Versailles troops blew up the exits.
1871 was also the year France lost the Franco-Prussian War,
and also about the time that Sacre Coeur was planned.
The previous year, 1870, French troops abandoned Rome,
and the Papal States of Pius IX were succeeded by Italian
patriots including Giuseppi Garibaldi.

Not only do the entombed Communards
correspond to the Underworld Realms,
but if you look below Sacre Coeur,
you see that its surrounding neighborhood,
at the base of Montmartre, is an area that today
has much Underworld activity, crime, and prostitution.


The Tibetan Stupa does not represent the plane of Original God,
but, if you interpret
the Human Realm of the Church, where the people worship,
to correspond to the Spiritual Nature of Humans,
and
the Underworld Realms, below the Church,
to correspond to the Material World of Humans,
then you have these correspondences:

[Clifford algebra and its 8-fold periodicity]

Cl(0) 1 R Abstract Beings
Cl(1) 1 1 C Light Beings
Cl(2) 1 2 1 Q Gods
Cl(3) 1 3 3 1 O Guardians

Cl(4) 1 4 6 4 1 S Spiritual Humans

Cl(5), Cl(6), Cl(7), and Cl(8) combine to form
Cl(8N) = Cl(8) (x)...(N times)...(x) Cl(8) Material Human World


The Material Human World stretches out below the Church,
not only as Montmartre, but as the City of Paris,
the Nation of France, and the Whole Earth.

...the central dome is surrounded by four other domes,
corresponding to the 4 directions, and with the central dome,
to the 5 elements of Taoism.
The highest point of Sacre Coeur,
the Bell Tower contains a 19-ton bell, the Savoyarde.
As you can see from the first photo,
the highest point, the Bell Tower, cannot be seen
by humans entering Sacre Coeur from the front,
much as humans cannot know the highest Tao.
Further, Sacre Coeur faces South, as would a Chinese palace.


The site of Sacre Coeur was not only named Montmartre
in honor of St. Dionysius, but was also the site
of a Benedictine abby founded in 1133 by Queen Adelaine of Savoy
and was visited by Saint Joan of Arc and Saint Ignatius Loyola.
The Montmartre neighborhood was frequented by artists,
including Marcel Duchamp, in the years leading up to World War I.
During World War I Teilhard refused a commission
and served as stretcher-bearer for Moroccans and Algerian Zouaves,
service for which he was awarded the Legion of Honor.
In 1919, after the end of the War, Sacre Coeur was completed.

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anart said:

Pryf said:

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods.

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Gurdjieff was rather well known for giving copious amounts of alcohol to his guests/students in order to see what aspects of their personalities emerged - what was behind any number of masks, as it were. If you've ever been in a situation with people who are attempting to present themselves in the best light, it is a very interesting experiment indeed, since the truth tends to 'slip out'.

I think, in the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam", the situation which you appear to be referring, that some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion was used to put the personality 'to sleep' so the essence would come forward. At least this is my current understanding.

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